EU v UK Democracy

[Ozymandias]

55% of UK members of parliament are unelected. No EU treaty or legal statute was ever foisted upon the people of the UK. They were all rubber-stamped by the UK government and/or parliament.

Unelected Bureaucrats? How The EU Beats The UK On Democracy. Truth To Power - Bing video

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ozymandias

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

@Dreamer screamer - enough please, you are arguing about nothing solely for the sake of arguing.

[Ozymandias]

13 minutes ago, Saru said:

@Dreamer screamer - enough please, you are arguing about nothing solely for the sake of arguing.

This is the second thread of mine [The Council of Europe - UK and Europe - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums (unexplained-mysteries.com)] that has been derailed by the nonsense posted by a particular contributor. I think Helen has not fully realised what she is dealing with and is making a valiant attempt to engage in a reasonable manner.

 

[Saru]

5 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

This is the second thread of mine [The Council of Europe - UK and Europe - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums (unexplained-mysteries.com)] that has been derailed by the nonsense posted by a particular contributor. I think Helen has not fully realised what she is dealing with and is making a valiant attempt to engage in a reasonable manner.

The thread has been cleaned up, the member in question has been reprimanded (again).

[Duke Wellington]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

55% of UK members of parliament are unelected. No EU treaty or legal statute was ever foisted upon the people of the UK. They were all rubber-stamped by the UK government and/or parliament.

Unelected Bureaucrats? How The EU Beats The UK On Democracy. Truth To Power - Bing video

 

Well thats factually wrong.

The is no mechanism for a person to become an MP by any other means than an election. I think you mean civil servants and Lords. 

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

Well thats factually wrong.

The is no mechanism for a person to become an MP by any other means than an election. I think you mean civil servants and Lords. 

The UK Parliament has two Houses - The house of Lords and the House of Commons, @Ozymandias was referring to the membership of both houses, i.e. members of parliament (lower case) rather than members of the Commons, Members of Parliament upper case.  

Civil Servants don't come into the equation, they are not members of parliament per se.  If a person happens to be a peer and a Civil Servant, its the peerage that gives them membership of the house not their being a Civil Servant. 

But I am sure you knew that 

Edited May 17, 2021 by RAyMO

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

Well thats factually wrong.

The is no mechanism for a person to become an MP by any other means than an election. I think you mean civil servants and Lords. 

No. It is factually correct. I said that '55% of UK members of parliament are unelected'. There are 650 MPs in the House of Commons and 808 Lords in the Hose of Lords. Together they make up the parliament of the UK. 808 out of 1458 members of parliament is 55%.

PS - If you bothered to look at the video whose link I provided in my opening post (#1), you would know that. Evidently, you attack posters without first fully engaging with the arguments they present.  

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ozymandias

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

The UK Parliament has two Houses - The house of Lords and the House of Commons, @Ozymandias was referring to the membership of both houses, i.e. members of parliament (lower case) rather than members of the Commons, Members of Parliament upper case.  

Civil Servants don't come into the equation, they are not members of parliament per se.  If a person happens to be a peer and a Civil Servant, its the peerage that gives them membership of the house not their being a Civil Servant. 

But I am sure you knew that 

Our upper chamber doesnt make laws, its role is to block laws that are contrary to the interests of the nation.

Civil servants are indeed in Parliament along with judges and various others. They provide the mechanisms and processes behind the scenes that allow Parliament to function.

Houses of Parliament | Civil Service Fast Stream

Edited May 17, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[RAyMO]

19 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Our upper chamber doesnt make laws, its role is to block laws that are contrary to the interests of the nation.

Civil servants are indeed in Parliament along with judges and various others. They provide the mechanisms and processes behind the scenes that allow Parliament to function.

Houses of Parliament | Civil Service Fast Stream

civil servants may be based in the houses of parliament but they are not 'members of parliament' unless given a peerage or elected
(in which case they have to resign). Parliament refers to MPs and members of the House of Lords, their support staff are not members of parliament - nor are the support staff to the House of Lords nor the House of Commons. 

some judges are indeed in the House of Lords but they are formally recognised as Lords. In fact since 2009 their role in the house is no different from any other lords. In that the house of lords is not the highest law in the land any more. 

Just like civil servants and even SPADs in 10 downing Street are not members of the government. 

Re bolded - incomplete, while they can block, they can also amend laws and send for reconsideration to the house of commons, in either case it has a parliamentary function in getting laws to the statue books.  

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by RAyMO

[Silver]

Ozy, this is what you are up against when you try to use logic and reason, I have read elsewhere that Brexit is 'like watching your library being burned down by people who can't read'  : AA Gill's Sunday Times Brexit Article And The 'I Want My Country Back' Woman Who Inspired it | HuffPost UK (huffingtonpost.co.uk)

The AA Gill piece referred to is the most beautiful prose and a great essay, unfortunately it is behind a Sunday Times paywall;  I try to either post it in entirety (it may be too big) or find a link to a un-locked source. It was written in June 2016, just before the referendum.

Here it is

Edited May 18, 2021 by ted hughes

[Ozymandias]

The UK is not a fully-fledged democracy: An alternative history of Britain - Gerry Hassan - writing, research, policy and ideas

I know many of you will be disinclined to view this article by Gerry Hassan suspecting that it will not provide the kind of confirmation bias that sustains your own bubble, but it contains factually correct information that everyone with an interest in this area should know.  

[Gerry Hassan - Wikipedia] is a British writer and academic with a string of publications to his widely respected name. He is currently Senior Research Fellow in contemporary Scottish history at the University of Dundee; previously he has been Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research Scotland and a Research Fellow in cultural policy at the University of the West of Scotland. 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Ozymandias

[Ozymandias]

4 hours ago, ted hughes said:

Ozy, this is what you are up against when you try to use logic and reason, I have read elsewhere that Brexit is 'like watching your library being burned down by people who can't read'  : AA Gill's Sunday Times Brexit Article And The 'I Want My Country Back' Woman Who Inspired it | HuffPost UK (huffingtonpost.co.uk)

The AA Gill piece referred to is the most beautiful prose and a great essay, unfortunately it is behind a Sunday Times paywall;  I try to either post it in entirety (it may be too big) or find a link to a un-locked source. It was written in June 2016, just before the referendum.

Here it is

Thanks for that link, Ted. I read it with interest and a growing realisation that it is so true. There is so much about the UK that is to be admired, and much of it to do with the past that is now gone. We cannot recreate the past, and the EU is certainly not responsible for its passing. As part of that nostalgia for the comfort of bygone things, I am reminded of such programmes as 'All Creatures Great and Small', 'Brideshead Revisited', etc, which, though brilliantly entertaining, have fostered among certain cohorts of the British population a sense of exceptionalism and nostalgic yearning that has proved detrimental to the current and future health and wellbeing of the UK. And now those cohorts have handed political and economic power to an Eton elite who cynically exploit, and certainly benefit from, those peoples' emotionally-driven aspirations. Britain, warts-and-all, will, I hope, continue to be a great country, but I fear the damage being done now by its current leadership will have a negative impact on its reputation and standing in the world. The UK needs reform (improvement) - what country doesn't? - but without destroying what is great about it, and there are so many decent, brilliant and reasonable people in Britain to see that such change for the better will eventually be made. I hope it happens soon.    

[L.A.T.1961]

23 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

55% of UK members of parliament are unelected. 

Unelected Bureaucrats? How The EU Beats The UK On Democracy. Truth To Power - Bing video

 

But isn't it a fact that the Lords do not propose legislation and only vet bills coming from the commons. They can discuses and propose, what they see as, improvements only. 

It does not matter how many lords there are as their affect on democracy is minimal.

It is the elected government that dictates policy, scrutinized by the opposition parties. 

 

[Autochthon1990]

I do rather like the idea of a council of appointed experts who can go over legislation and propose repairs on things has it goes through, without veto power of course. It'd at least stop our guys from trying to appeal Obamacare every week. 

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, Autochthon1990 said:

I do rather like the idea of a council of appointed experts who can go over legislation and propose repairs on things has it goes through, without veto power of course. It'd at least stop our guys from trying to appeal Obamacare every week. 

If only, many lords are hereditary, the majority of those that are not hereditary are  appointed by the government for no other reason than, perhaps, the PM of the day liked your TV show, or you were drinking buddies.   

Edited May 18, 2021 by RAyMO

[Duke Wellington]

I think some people here have serious issues with Britain.

Every topic on Britain its anti-Britain.

[itsnotoutthere]

3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I think some people here have serious issues with Britain.

Every topic on Britain its anti-Britain.

Project fear 2.0

[L.A.T.1961]

6 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

I do rather like the idea of a council of appointed experts who can go over legislation and propose repairs on things has it goes through, without veto power of course. It'd at least stop our guys from trying to appeal Obamacare every week. 

It could work quite well but it would require a group without political bias and unfortunately in the UK there are a substantial number of ex MP's who carry their old political baggage with them. 

As things stand in the lords currently it is largely a useless talking shop. 

The use of select committees, created to look at various topics, could work more effectively and experts could be hired when needed and then released. As with the Covid situation and SAGE. 

Its not perfect, bias free, but arguably better than the current UK second chamber. 

[Autochthon1990]

10 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I think some people here have serious issues with Britain.

Every topic on Britain its anti-Britain.

No we just think they did something /really/ stupid for /really/ stupid reasons. Over here it's like seeing your dad join a Pyramid Scheme, you feel bad for them but you know its their own fault for being dumb enough to fall for it.

[Silver]

23 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I think some people here have serious issues with Britain.

Every topic on Britain its anti-Britain.

If the British stopped acting like ignorant oafs, there would be fewer anti-British topics I reckon: EU to ask UK to respect citizens’ rights after mistreatment scandals | European Union | The Guardian

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, ted hughes said:

If the British stopped acting like ignorant oafs, there would be fewer anti-British topics I reckon: EU to ask UK to respect citizens’ rights after mistreatment scandals | European Union | The Guardian

Mistreatment scandals that no one else has heard off and coming from a pro-EU far-left newspaper.

[Silver]

14 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

No we just think they did something /really/ stupid for /really/ stupid reasons. Over here it's like seeing your dad join a Pyramid Scheme, you feel bad for them but you know its their own fault for being dumb enough to fall for it.

Just imagine how it is for us in the UK, only marginally more than half of the minority of the population who voted in the referendum, who did not know what they were voting for (whatever they now say, they cannot have known, as the terms were not set and all sorts of different deals were options, the only certainty being that we would not be stupid enough to leave the Single Market, which we then did at the last minute),as I say, that minority has condemned us all to live with their stupidity.

You only have to read the Brexiters posts on this forum to realise they don't have a clue about politics, trade or economics, they are just blinded by xenophobia.

There are no positives to Brexit, just damage to our economy, security, borders, culture and international standing. The Withdrawal Act and the Trade and Cooperation Agreement were the only trade deals in history designed to be deliberately damaging. Iain Duncan Smith was tasked with identifying some positives, he has failed to find even one, so the government is now appointing  a spin doctor to try to find something, anything. He won't find anything, there isn't anything to find.

It is truly maddening!

There are memes on Twitter, two of which are: 'Brexit is like watching your library being burnt down by people who can't read'

and: 'Brexit is for billionaires and idiots. To find out which you are, check your bank balance'.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by ted hughes

[L.A.T.1961]

2 hours ago, ted hughes said:

 

There are no positives to Brexit, just damage to our economy, security, borders, culture and international standing.

And yet the population, when asked to vote, keep putting a cross in the Tory box.

The party who decided to hold a referendum on EU membership, even if a significant number of their party were against the idea and would later fight to stop it. 

If the predicted damage had made even a small but negative effect on those voters they might feel different about voting intention. 

In the meantime the opposition parties and negative claims about Brexit has reduced their standing to also-rans.

Getting back on topic this demonstration of voter intent and the ability to win through in the end is probably one of the recent big indicators of UK democracy in action.

This type of big political change is impossible in the EU and they are worse off for it.  

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

And yet the population, when asked to vote, keep putting a cross in the Tory box.

The party who decided to hold a referendum on EU membership, even if a significant number of their party were against the idea and would later fight to stop it. 

If the predicted damage had made even a small but negative effect on those voters they might feel different about voting intention. 

In the meantime the opposition parties and negative claims about Brexit has reduced their standing to also-rans.

Getting back on topic this demonstration of voter intent and the ability to win through in the end is probably one of the recent big indicators of UK democracy in action.

This type of big political change is impossible in the EU and they are worse off for it.  

Come on man, he has a wholly negative distorted perception of Brexit.

Because it fits what he personally wants and believes in. Just remember they can be as negative about it as they want, we won!!! We got our freedom!!! We are no longer chained by the EU and can live up to our full potential again!!!

[Silver]

And here are the pair of you, CookieMonster and LAT1961, demonstrating on an international forum why you are both exactly the kind of half-wits Brexit is designed to appeal to! Why the pair of you were so gullible as to fall for a chancer and scoundrel like Farage, and opportunists like Johnson and Rees-Mogg  (the latter two are not "just like ordinary blokes you'd meet in the pub" by the way, they are millionaires/billionaires who would not even see you, if you happened to be on the same street as them).

Do the following, not for me, not just for other readers of this forum, but for yourselves and the government, who have  been searching these last 5 months for something positive to say about Brexit, tell us how Brexit has benefitted you. 

Go on, benefitted you personally, and maybe add how you feel the country has benefitted!

What can you do now that you could not do while a member of the EU? What can you do now, that you could not do in say, November last year? We all know the negatives, like you can't travel, study or retire in mainland Europe now, or sell fish anymore, or export anything freely, but lets hear a few positives. What can you now do that you couldn't while we were members of the EU?

And don't say vague, abstract things like 'now you feel sovereign', now you wake up knowing you are 'not a slave to the EU'. We always were sovereign and we never were slaves. And don't just say "we won". You could say that about a game of cribbage in the pub. Tell us what you won! What have you won that it is worth damaging the UK in such fundamental ways?

Free of EU "red tape"? That was another lie Johnson told you. Membership of the Single Market and Customs Union is what did away with red tape, not the UK government. Industry has realised the UK can produce its own red tape.

Perhaps you feel the country has "unleashed it's potential" or is about to. Well, Johnson and Liz Truss would love to hear about that. That would give them something to announce to the country, the world, and journalists.

Free to strike deals all around the world? Well yes, if you think that it is preferable to trade with a country 12k miles away rather than 20 miles. No economist would agree (the 'gravity model' always applies). If you want to undercut our own industry and agriculture, like the deal with Australia will do (worth 0.01-0.02% to the UK economy over 15 years and the decimation of UK farming). If you want to do away with the fishing industry (frozen fish is far less valuable than fresh).

No other country has walked away from a huge market on its doorstep to try its luck, alone, against the economic might of the world. Why would they? They are not so stupid.

Okay, lets hear from you both, and steve too!

Lets find out what you can all personally do now, that you could not do last summer, or a few years ago, when we were members of the EU.

And what can the country do now it has "unleashed its potential"?

I promise you, we will take it seriously. I will, if no one else, make sure your list is forwarded to the government and you get proper recognition! And you will get it -  at the moment it is looking like this government is the one that dealt the death blows to the UK economy, democracy, and caused its break-up. They are desperate for something positive to tell the nation.

You will have done something no one else has managed in the last 5 months. Go for it!

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by ted hughes