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Obama on UFOs: 'we don't know what they are'


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On 5/22/2021 at 5:45 AM, ufoguy said:

I don’t understand how a guy like .... Dr J Allen Hynek

Hynek lost all possible credibility and integrity with me when he boasted of "selling out" to keep his job with bluebook etc, of course a few close dear believers made reaching claims that meant hynek thought aliens were coming here which was not the case.

Hynek did not inspire CEot3rdK movie and his cameo was an ironic joke, look up were the man said he didnt believe ET came here.

Feel free to post proof of your claims that show something different, post proof not your biased opinions.

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7 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Hynek lost all possible credibility and integrity with me when he boasted of "selling out" to keep his job with bluebook etc, of course a few close dear believers made reaching claims that meant hynek thought aliens were coming here which was not the case.

Hynek did not inspire CEot3rdK movie and his cameo was an ironic joke, look up were the man said he didnt believe ET came here.

Feel free to post proof of your claims that show something different, post proof not your biased opinions.


https://www.history.com/news/j-allen-hynek-ufos-project-blue-book

The most dramatic of Hynek’s classifications, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, would, of course, become the title of a Steven Spielberg movie released in 1977. O'Connell reports that Hynek was paid $1,000 for the use of the title, another $1,000 for the rights to use stories from the book and $1,500 for three days of technical consulting—hardly a windfall by Hollywood standards. He also had a brief cameo in the film, playing an awestruck scientist when the alien craft comes into close view.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek

In his first book, Hynek published the "Close Encounter" scale that he had developed to better catalog UFO reports. Hynek was later a consultant to Columbia Pictures and Steven Spielberg for the popular 1977 UFO movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, named after a level of Hynek's scale. He made a cameo appearance in the film.[19] At the end of the film, after the aliens disembark from the "mother ship", he can be seen, bearded and with pipe in mouth, stepping forward to view the spectacle.

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On 5/23/2021 at 2:35 PM, Manwon Lender said:

I must say that lately I have been paying more attention the Government released videos and information than I ever have in the past. Now, that the Government is releasing these videos for the first time Air Force and Navy pilots are coming forward and telling their stories since they are no longer afraid of losing their jobs or being viewed as nut cases. I personally take the testimony's of these Military and Civilian personnel far more seriously than I have ever taken mainstream reports of UFOs. The people that once were basically silent, are now saying the phenomenon in those videos has been going for 20 or 30 years on regular basis and they occur so often that it doesn't even bother them any longer. The thing that bothers me about all of this is what is the US Government trying to present by no longer condemning and purposely releasing videos and other information including Pilot interviews. 

Like you psyche101, I actually dont believe that these craft are piloted by Aliens from across the Galaxy or Universe. But, what if they were not from across the Universe what if they were actually from our Solar system or possible even originally from Earth. Science has pretty much excepted a theory that life on Earth was destroyed a number of times before it took hold and formed the world we have today. So, please bear with me in theory only, what if not all life was destroyed, and lets say that possibly another Species similar to us started evolution a few Hundred Thousand Years before we did, and survived the mass extinctions. How much would that extra time effect their level of knowledge and Technology compared to our current levels. The question is could they stay hidden on Earth or a near by planet or moon and not allow us to see of fine them.

If their Technology, Physics, and Science, were a Thousand Years more advanced than ours could they have been watching our evolution and our Scientific and Technological advances from our very beginning and never interfered in our progression. Could what has been occurring be do to our technologies reaching a point where they can no longer always stay hidden or maybe they chose to no longer remain hidden. A great place to stay hidden would be the Asteroid Belt, there are so many debris in there that an entire city or cities could be hidden there, and that's only one location which is very very vast. Now, again this is only a theory I have been following for a number of years that I rarely ever speak about. If this theory were possible it could certainly explain a great deal, if it never pans out it was still interesting to think about. But one thing is for certain very little research has ever been done concerning these theories within our Solar System.

Psyche101, here is an interesting paper that doesnt have too many pages that discusses how a search like this would take place and were we should focus our attention on. If you get bored please look through it and tell me what you think my friend. Also if you think I am completely Bat Crap nuts, please also tell me that, I value your opinion either way and I would take no offense to your comments, my friend!!  Check this Link 1985IAUS..112..505P (harvard.edu)

 

Strange bedfellows: UFOs are uniting Trump's fiercest critics, loyalists (msn.com)

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/how-the-pentagon-started-taking-ufos-seriously

https://thehill.com/changing-america/resilience/smart-cities/554148-leaked-us-navy-video-shows-ufo-flying-in-california

Gidday mate

Problem is, considering UFOs alien is simply jumping the gun. 

The idea was popularised in culture mainly, and to be honest, the pilots that do support the alien idea tend to be overly zealous. The main driver seems to be "we don't have anything that can do that". It's really quite a leap. Things like ninety degree turns at high speed are lethal to any physical being. Not so with natural phenomena though, it's the best option because it puts round pegs in round holes. It can act as if intelligent, it can perform ninety degree turns and it can be detected in RADAR. 

I wouldn't put as much faith in the national space agencies as I would the amateur community. If there was comings and goings from the asteroid belt or further, they would be able to spot it.

Example:

Amateur astronomers actually managed to track a eight and a half meter craft - the X37B. While on a secret mission.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/8470-secret-37b-space-plane-spotted-amateur-skywatchers.html

NASA is often given a heads up from the amateur community. I actually also belong to a forum where a fellow countryman informed NASA of several Jupiter strikes.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2009JBAA..119..233R

They are a silent achievers and a mighty community that spans the globe. As a whole the majority don't believe anything had visited. They actually frown on the woo connection as they are professionals in their own field.

The tiny little craft that are described in encounters are simple not feasible as interstellar craft, and an Einstein-Rosen bridge would be detected anywhere inside the Oort cloud. Large vehicles aren't going to escape the thousands of pairs of eyes scanning the heavens at every moment. It's just highly unlikely. And again, we are yet to actually track a UFO leaving the atmosphere. Or entering it.

SETI has the right idea. If one is going to apply logic to the idea, it's the obvious place to start. Communications is the only realistic way to look for life on space. Missions cost a great deal in resources no matter where you are. Big feats require big energy. It's just how things are, there's no escaping that. E will always equal MC squared. But with communications, any species can send thousands of low risk, low cost missions at the speed of light. I can't see an intelligent species blundering through space. Such an incredible effort is going to be planned. Hence comms first again.

I'm not big on the no contact idea. Just can't see that really happening. Even where it was conceived, Star Trek, it wasn't always adhered to and many species thought it stupid. 

Then there's the other side if the coin. Species at our technological level or just in front. If there are advanced species, logically there should be ones at our level, below and everything in between. 

But before we even get to that subject we still have UFOs. RADAR says they originate and travel around here. Before they can be considered as a candidate for alien technology, a connection to space at the very least should be established. The most promising event to date would be the endless possibilities of the WOW! signal. That's what we need to be looking for. 

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2 hours ago, ufoguy said:

No it’s not

Yes it is. That's not a credible case. It's easily explained..

2 hours ago, ufoguy said:

Hynek believe the eye witnesses that were seeing flying saucers and it’s occupants.... this is why he created the center for ufo studies.... something other mainstream scientists are scared to do. After project bluebook got shut down he continued his investigation in ufo reports and even categorized them.. as “ Close encounters of the 1st , 2nd and the 3rd kind in his book “ he was the first person to created that term. 
 

Hynek even inspired Steven Spielberg to create that movie Close Encounters of the 3rd kind

It’s very accurate and very likely 

That paragraph I quoted was from 1973. Close Encounters was 1977. You do the math.

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11 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Gidday mate

Problem is, considering UFOs alien is simply jumping the gun. 

The idea was popularised in culture mainly, and to be honest, the pilots that do support the alien idea tend to be overly zealous. The main driver seems to be "we don't have anything that can do that". It's really quite a leap. Things like ninety degree turns at high speed are lethal to any physical being. Not so with natural phenomena though, it's the best option because it puts round pegs in round holes. It can act as if intelligent, it can perform ninety degree turns and it can be detected in RADAR. 

I wouldn't put as much faith in the national space agencies as I would the amateur community. If there was comings and goings from the asteroid belt or further, they would be able to spot it.

Example:

Amateur astronomers actually managed to track a eight and a half meter craft - the X37B. While on a secret mission.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/8470-secret-37b-space-plane-spotted-amateur-skywatchers.html

NASA is often given a heads up from the amateur community. I actually also belong to a forum where a fellow countryman informed NASA of several Jupiter strikes.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2009JBAA..119..233R

They are a silent achievers and a mighty community that spans the globe. As a whole the majority don't believe anything had visited. They actually frown on the woo connection as they are professionals in their own field.

The tiny little craft that are described in encounters are simple not feasible as interstellar craft, and an Einstein-Rosen bridge would be detected anywhere inside the Oort cloud. Large vehicles aren't going to escape the thousands of pairs of eyes scanning the heavens at every moment. It's just highly unlikely. And again, we are yet to actually track a UFO leaving the atmosphere. Or entering it.

SETI has the right idea. If one is going to apply logic to the idea, it's the obvious place to start. Communications is the only realistic way to look for life on space. Missions cost a great deal in resources no matter where you are. Big feats require big energy. It's just how things are, there's no escaping that. E will always equal MC squared. But with communications, any species can send thousands of low risk, low cost missions at the speed of light. I can't see an intelligent species blundering through space. Such an incredible effort is going to be planned. Hence comms first again.

I'm not big on the no contact idea. Just can't see that really happening. Even where it was conceived, Star Trek, it wasn't always adhered to and many species thought it stupid. 

Then there's the other side if the coin. Species at our technological level or just in front. If there are advanced species, logically there should be ones at our level, below and everything in between. 

But before we even get to that subject we still have UFOs. RADAR says they originate and travel around here. Before they can be considered as a candidate for alien technology, a connection to space at the very least should be established. The most promising event to date would be the endless possibilities of the WOW! signal. That's what we need to be looking for. 

 You see here's the problem I never said in my comments that these objects came form interstellar space, I am kind of confused my friend it almost seems you may have mixed my comments up with another post! 

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2 hours ago, ufoguy said:


https://www.history.com/news/j-allen-hynek-ufos-project-blue-book

The most dramatic of Hynek’s classifications, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, would, of course, become the title of a Steven Spielberg movie released in 1977. O'Connell reports that Hynek was paid $1,000 for the use of the title, another $1,000 for the rights to use stories from the book and $1,500 for three days of technical consulting—hardly a windfall by Hollywood standards. He also had a brief cameo in the film, playing an awestruck scientist when the alien craft comes into close view.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek

In his first book, Hynek published the "Close Encounter" scale that he had developed to better catalog UFO reports. Hynek was later a consultant to Columbia Pictures and Steven Spielberg for the popular 1977 UFO movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, named after a level of Hynek's scale. He made a cameo appearance in the film.[19] At the end of the film, after the aliens disembark from the "mother ship", he can be seen, bearded and with pipe in mouth, stepping forward to view the spectacle.

Do better reaserch, the movie was in the works before the connection you are presenting so hynek didnt at all inspire it, he was an admitted sell out who had a cameo for irony  go look up the facts that dont fit your delusions,

But sure, a a sci fi fictional film is some sort of proof of ET to you, not surpized.

Edited by the13bats
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10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Yes it is. That's not a credible case. It's easily explained..

It cannot be explained by calling it a birthday balloon by u skeptics

11 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That paragraph I quoted was from 1973. Close Encounters was 1977. You do the math.

Ur point?

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14 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 You see here's the problem I never said in my comments that these objects came form interstellar space, I am kind of confused my friend it almost seems you may have mixed my comments up with another post! 

I know, but you mentioned the asteroid belt. Even local space I think would give us the one thing we are missing. The connection to space. Time travelling too. 

That's often considered a given, but it's never been established. Future humans would need to travel through a wormhole to traverse time, which is where I was looking at the option. Sorry bud, I probably should have given you more details but I suspect you are understanding what I'm saying. Basically I do feel according to statistics that other life should exist, I'd in fact go as far to say intelligent life will be familiar. But I don't think there's evidence that we have been visited as such. I feel that meeting another species is more likely than meeting Time travellers but again, that's another discussion. 

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On 5/22/2021 at 11:35 PM, Manwon Lender said:

I actually dont believe that these craft are piloted by Aliens from across the Galaxy or Universe. But, what if they were not from across the Universe what if they were actually from our Solar system or possible even originally from Earth. Science has pretty much excepted a theory that life on Earth was destroyed a number of times before it took hold and formed the world we have today. So, please bear with me in theory only, what if not all life was destroyed, and lets say that possibly another Species similar to us started evolution a few Hundred Thousand Years before we did, and survived the mass extinctions. How much would that extra time effect their level of knowledge and Technology compared to our current levels. The question is could they stay hidden on Earth or a near by planet or moon and not allow us to see of fine them.

The problem I have with that theory is the complete lack of evidence.  In order for a civilization to become technologically capable of space travel...they would have to be more advanced than ours.  There is no evidence of roads or buildings or tools or plastics or anything remotely like what we have today.  

Hundreds of thousands of years from now there will be an incredible amount of evidence of our civilization.  In order for one to become technologically advanced, a path of knowledge and learning must be followed...and it must, by the laws of physics, be similar to how our technology came about.  Today's greatest thing becomes tomorrows old news and as a result...a path of learning and evolution of technology is created. There is no evolution of a path of technology from anyone from this planet.  And we know there aren't life forms on the other planets in our own solar system...that isn't a guess...we know that...so...

...the only other avenue is interstellar travel.  That is quite problematic as well given that the closest star system is over 4 light years away.  In order for a visit...our guests would have to have left at least  four years ago and travelled all this way at the speed of light...for what??   To annoy us?  To steal our technology and resources?  To eat us?  Why would a highly technological society from another star system even do that?  They would not even know we existed.  Just as we don't know if any of the planets in that solar system are inhabited with life.  

So...from my personal pov...there aren't any Aliens...no ETs...no star travellers...nothing.  There is life out there somewhere but we will never find it.  

oh...wait... @psyche101 mentioned Communication...

Where is that?  Where is any communication?  If a technological society lived for instance on Alpha Centuri...why no radio transmissions?  I would think a civilization advanced enough for interstellar travel would have kind of an idea of radio frequencies...so...again...

There are no life forms out there that we will ever hear from...ever.   We may be the only life in The Milky Way Galaxy.   And there might only be life on maybe one planet in every hundred million or so galaxies....   Since there are Trillions of Galaxies, that still would be an incredible number of other life forms in the universe, but we will never know each other exist.  

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30 minutes ago, joc said:

The problem I have with that theory is the complete lack of evidence.  In order for a civilization to become technologically capable of space travel...they would have to be more advanced than ours.  There is no evidence of roads or buildings or tools or plastics or anything remotely like what we have today.  

Hundreds of thousands of years from now there will be an incredible amount of evidence of our civilization.  In order for one to become technologically advanced, a path of knowledge and learning must be followed...and it must, by the laws of physics, be similar to how our technology came about.  Today's greatest thing becomes tomorrows old news and as a result...a path of learning and evolution of technology is created. There is no evolution of a path of technology from anyone from this planet.  And we know there aren't life forms on the other planets in our own solar system...that isn't a guess...we know that...so...

...the only other avenue is interstellar travel.  That is quite problematic as well given that the closest star system is over 4 light years away.  In order for a visit...our guests would have to have left at least  four years ago and travelled all this way at the speed of light...for what??   To annoy us?  To steal our technology and resources?  To eat us?  Why would a highly technological society from another star system even do that?  They would not even know we existed.  Just as we don't know if any of the planets in that solar system are inhabited with life.  

So...from my personal pov...there aren't any Aliens...no ETs...no star travellers...nothing.  There is life out there somewhere but we will never find it.  

oh...wait... @psyche101 mentioned Communication...

Where is that?  Where is any communication?  If a technological society lived for instance on Alpha Centuri...why no radio transmissions?  I would think a civilization advanced enough for interstellar travel would have kind of an idea of radio frequencies...so...again...

There are no life forms out there that we will ever hear from...ever.   We may be the only life in The Milky Way Galaxy.   And there might only be life on maybe one planet in every hundred million or so galaxies....   Since there are Trillions of Galaxies, that still would be an incredible number of other life forms in the universe, but we will never know each other exist.  

From what I gather Manwon is more proposing an interstellar species camped here in the solar system observing. 

With communications, I'm not sure it will ever happen but it strikes me as a more logical way of exploring space rather than physically wandering the galaxy. If we could manage to utilise a wormhole, if they actually exist, again, comms strikes me as the best way a species would initiate first contact. Flying saucers just wouldn't be feasible. 

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29 minutes ago, joc said:

The problem I have with that theory is the complete lack of evidence.  In order for a civilization to become technologically capable of space travel...they would have to be more advanced than ours.  There is no evidence of roads or buildings or tools or plastics or anything remotely like what we have today.  

Hundreds of thousands of years from now there will be an incredible amount of evidence of our civilization.  In order for one to become technologically advanced, a path of knowledge and learning must be followed...and it must, by the laws of physics, be similar to how our technology came about.  Today's greatest thing becomes tomorrows old news and as a result...a path of learning and evolution of technology is created. There is no evolution of a path of technology from anyone from this planet.  And we know there aren't life forms on the other planets in our own solar system...that isn't a guess...we know that...so...

...the only other avenue is interstellar travel.  That is quite problematic as well given that the closest star system is over 4 light years away.  In order for a visit...our guests would have to have left at least  four years ago and travelled all this way at the speed of light...for what??   To annoy us?  To steal our technology and resources?  To eat us?  Why would a highly technological society from another star system even do that?  They would not even know we existed.  Just as we don't know if any of the planets in that solar system are inhabited with life.  

So...from my personal pov...there aren't any Aliens...no ETs...no star travellers...nothing.  There is life out there somewhere but we will never find it.  

oh...wait... @psyche101 mentioned Communication...

Where is that?  Where is any communication?  If a technological society lived for instance on Alpha Centuri...why no radio transmissions?  I would think a civilization advanced enough for interstellar travel would have kind of an idea of radio frequencies...so...again...

There are no life forms out there that we will ever hear from...ever.   We may be the only life in The Milky Way Galaxy.   And there might only be life on maybe one planet in every hundred million or so galaxies....   Since there are Trillions of Galaxies, that still would be an incredible number of other life forms in the universe, but we will never know each other exist.  

That was very well said,

I am not as closed door as you on communication i see it as a long shot hit a lotto while getting hit ny lightening idea,

Humans and aliens would have to be at a similar level of tech and then decipher each others languages, remember the flick independence day and we are suppose to buy in that the aliens were defeated because we stuck a winxp virus in their comp system, hah, try using a win virus on mac no, communication might at some point be possible but still not likely it will ever get better than setis "wow" signal.

Many years ago i got into reading some of charles fort stuff you know raining little fish or a live frog or spark plug inside a old rock or lump of coal,

The idea of countless past civilizations on earth is popular with some but just doesnt have any evidence to support it, in my way of thinking even if all the great tribes of the world all pushed their red buttons and wiped us away in a million years there would still still be a spark plug or old mcfish container next to a rack of twinkies still fit to eat,  a copy of playboy or hustler,

Its like the camp who thinks all ancient people were blithering idiots and needed aliens to show them how to dig a hole or place one rock on top of the other, nothing high tech.

Its not that i like the idea but distance will keep us loners in this universe.

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1 hour ago, joc said:

The problem I have with that theory is the complete lack of evidence.  In order for a civilization to become technologically capable of space travel...they would have to be more advanced than ours.  There is no evidence of roads or buildings or tools or plastics or anything remotely like what we have today.  

Hundreds of thousands of years from now there will be an incredible amount of evidence of our civilization.  In order for one to become technologically advanced, a path of knowledge and learning must be followed...and it must, by the laws of physics, be similar to how our technology came about.  Today's greatest thing becomes tomorrows old news and as a result...a path of learning and evolution of technology is created. There is no evolution of a path of technology from anyone from this planet.  And we know there aren't life forms on the other planets in our own solar system...that isn't a guess...we know that...so...

...the only other avenue is interstellar travel.  That is quite problematic as well given that the closest star system is over 4 light years away.  In order for a visit...our guests would have to have left at least  four years ago and travelled all this way at the speed of light...for what??   To annoy us?  To steal our technology and resources?  To eat us?  Why would a highly technological society from another star system even do that?  They would not even know we existed.  Just as we don't know if any of the planets in that solar system are inhabited with life.  

So...from my personal pov...there aren't any Aliens...no ETs...no star travellers...nothing.  There is life out there somewhere but we will never find it.  

oh...wait... @psyche101 mentioned Communication...

Where is that?  Where is any communication?  If a technological society lived for instance on Alpha Centuri...why no radio transmissions?  I would think a civilization advanced enough for interstellar travel would have kind of an idea of radio frequencies...so...again...

There are no life forms out there that we will ever hear from...ever.   We may be the only life in The Milky Way Galaxy.   And there might only be life on maybe one planet in every hundred million or so galaxies....   Since there are Trillions of Galaxies, that still would be an incredible number of other life forms in the universe, but we will never know each other exist.  

Well said joc I can agree on many points we can however think in broader terms then our own Universe. Consider a superior intelligence light years ahead of ours. All speculation of course

https://www.livescience.com/62558-parallel-universe-aliens-survive-dark-energy.html

 

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58 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

From what I gather Manwon is more proposing an interstellar species camped here in the solar system observing. 

With communications, I'm not sure it will ever happen but it strikes me as a more logical way of exploring space rather than physically wandering the galaxy. If we could manage to utilise a wormhole, if they actually exist, again, comms strikes me as the best way a species would initiate first contact. Flying saucers just wouldn't be feasible. 

And yet...there are no communications.  No radio frequencies...which is how we communicate...it would also be how they communicate.  There aren't really exactly an infinite number of paths to interstellar space travel...it evolved....as they evolved...as our technology evolved.  And there aren't any wormholes.   And if they did...if all of that was really something that is currently going on...why would they zippity do da around our atmosphere playing see me now, now you don't games?  None of it makes any sense.  

The conclusion of my thought process is.  There ain't no aliens.   There ain't no wormholes.  Their ain't no star travelers.  And the reason that there ain't...is because...if it is possible in the realm of Physics...it exists.  If it doesn't exist naturally like polyethene or a light bulb...then it must be created by something with intelligence using means within the laws of physics.  And the Laws of Physics says that it is possible for life to spontaneously erupt on a planet under the right conditions...and that once it does it will evolve...and eventually in millions of years intelligent life can appear.  And that intelligent life can create things using the laws of physics...but in the end the evolutionary needs of Darwinism will prevail and said species will diminish to the point of virtual non-existence until it becomes extinct.

Regardless of where in the Universe life erupts...this is the evolutionary law of physics...that life must kill to live...and so it will...and will eventually dominate and then become extinct. Just my thoughts. 

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39 minutes ago, khol said:

Well said joc I can agree on many points we can however think in broader terms then our own Universe. Consider a superior intelligence light years ahead of ours. All speculation of course

https://www.livescience.com/62558-parallel-universe-aliens-survive-dark-energy.html

 

I think I covered that in my post to psyche but...just to clarify.  There cannot be such a civilization.  It is impossible to evolve out of the need to kill and eat that is the very trap of life which it keeps it going.  It must die to live.  In order for a civilization to be light years ahead of ours...would necessarily mean that they evolved past the need to kill and eat...they would then therefore be...Gods.  Literally superhuman entities.  Again...if that were the case...why would they play childish games with us?

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7 minutes ago, joc said:

And yet...there are no communications.  No radio frequencies...which is how we communicate...it would also be how they communicate.  There aren't really exactly an infinite number of paths to interstellar space travel...it evolved....as they evolved...as our technology evolved.  And there aren't any wormholes.   And if they did...if all of that was really something that is currently going on...why would they zippity do da around our atmosphere playing see me now, now you don't games?  None of it makes any sense.  

The conclusion of my thought process is.  There ain't no aliens.   There ain't no wormholes.  Their ain't no star travelers.  And the reason that there ain't...is because...if it is possible in the realm of Physics...it exists.  If it doesn't exist naturally like polyethene or a light bulb...then it must be created by something with intelligence using means within the laws of physics.  And the Laws of Physics says that it is possible for life to spontaneously erupt on a planet under the right conditions...and that once it does it will evolve...and eventually in millions of years intelligent life can appear.  And that intelligent life can create things using the laws of physics...but in the end the evolutionary needs of Darwinism will prevail and said species will diminish to the point of virtual non-existence until it becomes extinct.

Regardless of where in the Universe life erupts...this is the evolutionary law of physics...that life must kill to live...and so it will...and will eventually dominate and then become extinct. Just my thoughts. 

No there's no communications unless the WOW! signal is repeated or has some level of development. 

However, I maintain that it's the most logical form of space travel and would be a precursor to any actual visitation.

Caveat: if it happens. 

With Darwinism, it's not going to be as much of a factor in an advanced species. We started to move away from survival of the fittest when we began farming. Studying Darwinism has shown us a lot of things we don't like about it. So we are moving away from that course. Richard Dawkins has some interesting thoughts on that actually. 

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Just now, psyche101 said:

No there's no communications unless the WOW! signal is repeated or has some level of development. 

However, I maintain that it's the most logical form of space travel and would be a precursor to any actual visitation.

Caveat: if it happens. 

With Darwinism, it's not going to be as much of a factor in an advanced species. We started to move away from survival of the fittest when we began farming. Studying Darwinism has shown us a lot of things we don't like about it. So we are moving away from that course. Richard Dawkins has some interesting thoughts on that actually. 

Maybe I used an inappropriate term when I said Darwinism.  What I actually am trying to say is that it is impossible to evolve into something that does not possess the primitive brain.  We cannot evolve out of our  evolutionary dna structure of kill, eat, procreate, die.  Because that isn't a 'human' thing...it is a Life thing.

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3 hours ago, joc said:

the only other avenue is interstellar travel. 

..within our universe yeah for sure 

I was going into the twilight zone and speculating perhaps these latest sightings as bizzarre as it sounds was intelligence from parallel worlds not lights years across our universe..but right beside us...Im not completely serious here   (:     But history shows we can be naive in thinking we have it all boxed in when in fact we are nowhere close. Kelvin said how there is nothing more to learn in physics yet within 20yrs?? Einstien had formulated his theory and quantum mechanics was had been discovered. Before that Copernicus and Galileo were revolutionary. We dont have to constrict ourselves too much. There could be much more to reality then we realize

Edited by khol
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1 hour ago, joc said:

Maybe I used an inappropriate term when I said Darwinism.  What I actually am trying to say is that it is impossible to evolve into something that does not possess the primitive brain.  We cannot evolve out of our  evolutionary dna structure of kill, eat, procreate, die.  Because that isn't a 'human' thing...it is a Life thing.

It's also something we have come to understand and want to move away from though. We don't kill the offspring of another parent, we frown on stealing and work together. All things that natural selection demands. We saw these things and decided we could go better. We are even trying to create foods in a lab. We control our environment and police community. 

We have already moved away from natural selection and I expect we will continue to do so.

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6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's also something we have come to understand and want to move away from though. We don't kill the offspring of another parent, we frown on stealing and work together. All things that natural selection demands. We saw these things and decided we could go better. We are even trying to create foods in a lab. We control our environment and police community. 

We have already moved away from natural selection and I expect we will continue to do so.

I think you are missing my point.  Humans are one aspect of a thing known as Life.  Life...not just Tiger life...not just Octopus life...not just Human life...Life.  Living things.  I'm talking about the fact that Living Things must eat dead things in order to live.  

In fact, not only do we kill the offspring of another parent, we kill our own offspring!  What species evolves to the point that they think it is in their best interest to abort their babies?  And every day there are news stories of people killing the children of others.  We are not evolving toward anything great...we have just worked our way up to the top of the food chain.  

My larger point is that...any civilization anywhere in the universe is going to be a product of life.  And the evolution of life I think is a Law of Physics...not just an anomaly of Earth.   Life must evolve a certain way...and it must always involve killing to survive.

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7 hours ago, khol said:

..within our universe yeah for sure 

I was going into the twilight zone and speculating perhaps these latest sightings as bizzarre as it sounds was intelligence from parallel worlds not lights years across our universe..but right beside us...Im not completely serious here   (:     But history shows we can be naive in thinking we have it all boxed in when in fact we are nowhere close. Kelvin said how there is nothing more to learn in physics yet within 20yrs?? Einstien had formulated his theory and quantum mechanics was had been discovered. Before that Copernicus and Galileo were revolutionary. We dont have to constrict ourselves too much. There could be much more to reality then we realize

I think we have only merely 'scratched the surface' of understanding our universe.  The idea of parallel universes however is nowhere to be found within the actual understanding of the physics of the universe.  The idea that this universe...as infinite as it seems...is just one of billions of trillions of other universes is actually quite logical. And, one can imagine bubbles floating in the air...and two bubbles touching and glomming together and floating off together.  That would be the 'parallel universe'  you refer to...

I find all of that just nonsensical sci-fi thought though.   And while there could be much more to reality than we realize...maybe there just isn't.  Maybe, just maybe, we have a pretty good grip on knowledge of what and where we are.   The why part...always illusive.

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On 5/23/2021 at 10:59 PM, psyche101 said:

No he didn't. He discussed that as one possibility with the person who offered that idea, Jaques Vallee.

Yes, he did. In their book, The Edge of Reality: A Progress Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, both Hynek and Valley discuss at length the possibility that some UFOs are interdimensional phenomena, a possibility that they agreed is more likely than the other options on the table, including the E.T. hypothesis.

 

Quote

 

13 years before he passed, Hynek stated the following at a lecture.

 "A few good sightings a year, over the world, would bolster the extraterrestrial hypothesis—but many thousands every year? From remote regions of space? And to what purpose? To scare us by stopping cars, and disturbing animals, and puzzling us with their seemingly pointless antics?"

 

Um, yes. Hynek was here criticizing the E.T. hypothesis, not the Interdimensional hypothesis.

 

Quote

Spaceship ideas were ridiculed. Largely, they still are for good reason. UFOs and space are two different things, not connected.

Yes, spaceship ideas were ridiculed, but so was the UFO topic at large. If you talked about seeing a UFO, or even of seriously considering the UFO phenomenon, you were almost certain to face ridicule. Heck, that is still largely true,

Quote

Real UFO investigators do exist. They always have. They just don't adopt the childish monikers that the professional con men like Friedman take on.

Friedman may very well have been a con man, but I'm not so sure. What has got you convinced he was?

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18 hours ago, joc said:

And yet...there are no communications.  No radio frequencies...which is how we communicate...it would also be how they communicate.  There aren't really exactly an infinite number of paths to interstellar space travel...it evolved....as they evolved...as our technology evolved.  And there aren't any wormholes.   And if they did...if all of that was really something that is currently going on...why would they zippity do da around our atmosphere playing see me now, now you don't games?  None of it makes any sense.  

The conclusion of my thought process is.  There ain't no aliens.   There ain't no wormholes.  Their ain't no star travelers.  And the reason that there ain't...is because...if it is possible in the realm of Physics...it exists.  If it doesn't exist naturally like polyethene or a light bulb...then it must be created by something with intelligence using means within the laws of physics.  And the Laws of Physics says that it is possible for life to spontaneously erupt on a planet under the right conditions...and that once it does it will evolve...and eventually in millions of years intelligent life can appear.  And that intelligent life can create things using the laws of physics...but in the end the evolutionary needs of Darwinism will prevail and said species will diminish to the point of virtual non-existence until it becomes extinct.

Regardless of where in the Universe life erupts...this is the evolutionary law of physics...that life must kill to live...and so it will...and will eventually dominate and then become extinct. Just my thoughts. 

Hey my friends let me explain the theory I have been reading up on, on some of the Acedemic Sites that have Astrophysicists and Astrobiologist who have considered these questions. Some of the information is listed as Hypothetical and some of the ideas are just theories that have been discussed for more than 40 years. 

Let me be clear I don't think that Aliens have ever Built Pyramids on Earth, or that they come here for vacations or any other fringe beliefs. 

So let's start at the beginning where the theories and hypotheses that I am talking about start. The universe is approximately 13.7 Billion years old according to many Scientists today, and the Earth is Approximately 4 Billion years old. Our Solar system is approximately 4.5 Billion years old so according to the general age of the Universe our Solar system and our planet are relatively young in the Cosmic Scheme of things. Life first began on Earth approximately 3.4 to 3.8 Billion years ago, and in the earliest days RNA one celled life forms were the first life on Earth. Life Forms that were based upon DNA did not did not evolve until much later in Earths History. 

If we consider the above information, the age of the Universe and the age of our Solar system and Earth it becomes clear that there is a difference of approximately 8 Billion + years from when the Great Expansion or Big Bang occurred that started everything. So considering the difference in the time frames above the next question is how many Civilizations have risen and have fallen before our Solar System was a speck of Cosmic Dust? Then considering this how many other Civilzations that have risen may still survive today, and could be approximately be 2 to 6 Billion years older than our Solar system and Earth itself. 

Taking this theory into consideration, how advanced would a Civilization be if it was, let's say it was 4 Billion years older than our current Civilization.. Next how advanced would their knowledge of Physics, Science and Technology  be compared to ours? It seems logically based on our evolution and development that another Species that was approximately 4 Billion years older than ours would also have Technology, and a understanding of Physics and Science equally advanced. In simple terms we are the first one celled RNA life forms that developed in Earths Oceans and they would be Equal to us at this stage in our evolution. 

If we take this into consideration it is very possible that a few Billion years ago an Alien Species could have passed through what would become or was becoming our Solar system while we were nothing but single celled RNA life forms. Next what if they decided to place out posts in what was them our Solar System, that could still remain today or were abandoned long ago. Now by reading your comments in your posts above the issue of how would we not detect their communications or movement within our Solar System, was brought up. Well do to their advanced state in comparison to ours, it doesn't seem to be a stretch that their technology most likely would give them the ability to hide from us as long as those choose to do so.

But there is also an opposite side of this coin, let's say no others Species has passed through this part of the Universe yet. What would stop them from sending advanced probes to explore the Universe, I mean we have been doing this for close to 40 years ourselves. Maybe some of the Objects that were seen over the years and called UFOs were nothing but unmanned Alien Probes, and just maybe some of the unidentified Airial Crafts our Governments are experiencing right now are Alien unmanned Probes.

These are the theories and hypotheses I am putting forward, I am trying to be clear in my comments. Its obvious I am not an expert in any of these areas, however, I do have an interest in this subject and I have been reading about it and studying these theories for many years. However, this is the first time I have shared my thoughts on the subject publicly, and during the time I have been a forum member I don't remember this subject being approached from the direct I am outlining here.

Thanks for being patient with me guys, I am not nuts:wacko:, well maybe I am walking that fine line between Bat Crap Crazy and reality :lol: that is for whoever reads these comments to decide. :yes:

 

Estimated age of the Universe:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200715170541.htm

How old is our Solar System:

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-system/our-solar-system/in-depth/

When did life start on Earth

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/science/kring/epo_web/impact_cratering/origin_of_life/index.html

How life began on Earth: Status Updated Report

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.533.1125&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Search for foot prints of Alien Technology:

https://fenomenum.com.br/ufo/cientificos/Footprints_of_alien_technology.pdf

A more sensible search Strategy for finding Abandoned Alien Technology in our Solar system:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/pdf/1985IAUS..112..505P

 

 

16 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's also something we have come to understand and want to move away from though. We don't kill the offspring of another parent, we frown on stealing and work together. All things that natural selection demands. We saw these things and decided we could go better. We are even trying to create foods in a lab. We control our environment and police community. 

We have already moved away from natural selection and I expect we will continue to do so.

 

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14 hours ago, joc said:

I think you are missing my point.  Humans are one aspect of a thing known as Life.  Life...not just Tiger life...not just Octopus life...not just Human life...Life.  Living things.  I'm talking about the fact that Living Things must eat dead things in order to live.  

Herbivores.

14 hours ago, joc said:

In fact, not only do we kill the offspring of another parent, we kill our own offspring!  What species evolves to the point that they think it is in their best interest to abort their babies?  And every day there are news stories of people killing the children of others.  We are not evolving toward anything great...we have just worked our way up to the top of the food chain.  

Dolphins, monkeys, lions, most species commit infanticide. We consider it a crime, no other species does.

14 hours ago, joc said:

My larger point is that...any civilization anywhere in the universe is going to be a product of life.  And the evolution of life I think is a Law of Physics...not just an anomaly of Earth.   Life must evolve a certain way...and it must always involve killing to survive.

Only to a point. As a species becomes aware and introduces right and wrong, that instinct disappates. We made it to the top of the food chain. We are at the. "now what" bit as a large portion of the planet my best toward veganism and lab grown meats. Nowadays hunting is a choice, not a necessity.

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On 5/25/2021 at 11:59 AM, joc said:

And yet...there are no communications.  No radio frequencies...which is how we communicate...it would also be how they communicate.  There aren't really exactly an infinite number of paths to interstellar space travel...it evolved....as they evolved...as our technology evolved.  And there aren't any wormholes.   And if they did...if all of that was really something that is currently going on...why would they zippity do da around our atmosphere playing see me now, now you don't games?  None of it makes any sense.  

The conclusion of my thought process is.  There ain't no aliens.   There ain't no wormholes.  Their ain't no star travelers.  And the reason that there ain't...is because...if it is possible in the realm of Physics...it exists.  If it doesn't exist naturally like polyethene or a light bulb...then it must be created by something with intelligence using means within the laws of physics.  And the Laws of Physics says that it is possible for life to spontaneously erupt on a planet under the right conditions...and that once it does it will evolve...and eventually in millions of years intelligent life can appear.  And that intelligent life can create things using the laws of physics...but in the end the evolutionary needs of Darwinism will prevail and said species will diminish to the point of virtual non-existence until it becomes extinct.

Regardless of where in the Universe life erupts...this is the evolutionary law of physics...that life must kill to live...and so it will...and will eventually dominate and then become extinct. Just my thoughts. 

Communication can take many forms my friend, radio frequencies are not very good methods of communication. They are to slow, and that's where their limitations are the greatest. Here is another problem SETI has only been searching for Microwave burst communication all these years and since they are the most advanced group of Scientists in this field, and yet for reasons I cant explain they are only now acknowledging this was mistake. The papers I added below go into other forms of communication that would be faster ( Some Light Speed ) and that would invisible to us because of our present state of technology. 

I am going to address your comments concerning the realm of Physics. Our knowledge of Astrophysics is like a 2x2 block of Swiss Cheese, its so full of holes that our present level of technology that in reality we have only scratched the surface. When it come to discussions of our knowledge of Physics at this point in time you must discuss Einstein's General and Special theories of Relativity because while those theories may cover all topics, they are the foundation that our knowledge of Physics is built upon. According to your beliefs as you outlined them above if it cant occur according to Astrophysics then it isn't possible, and I have no choice but to agree with you because to our base knowledge that is the correct answer.

However, what you failed to take into consideration is that as a Species we dont have all the answers. But according to Einstein and Rosen what they have postulated as an Einstein Rosen Bridge is possible according to Einstein's theories which is another name for a Wormhole. Now theoretically according to physics it is possible to create and manipulate such things. The only reason we are not currently doing it is because our level of technology and our knowledge of Astrophysics is still infantile in the scope of things. With all likely hood there civilizations that are a few Billion years older than ours in the Universe. With a knowledge of physics and technology also that much advanced to ours.

Maybe some day if we dont destroy ourselves we will have the answers to all the equations need to fully understand Physics. But currently we are still the young kids on the play ground  concerning Astrophysics and we are not even half way there yet. We cant even fully explain simple Universal Processes much less the complicated processes that it would take to create and control a Wormhole.

The Einstein-Rosen Bridge: Einstein - Rosen Bridge (lege.net)

Wormholes, Warp Drives and Energy Conditions: 421735_Print.indd (cinvestav.mx)

Neutrinos for Interstellar CommunicationCosmic Search Issue 03 - All Articles & Miscellaneous Items (bigear.org)

 Engineering planetary lasers for interstellar communication1992lbsa.conf..637S (harvard.edu)

Interstellar communication. IV. Benchmarking information carriers1711.07962.pdf (arxiv.org)

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14 hours ago, SeekTruth said:

Yes, he did. In their book, The Edge of Reality: A Progress Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, both Hynek and Valley discuss at length the possibility that some UFOs are interdimensional phenomena, a possibility that they agreed is more likely than the other options on the table, including the E.T. hypothesis.

Hi discussed it with Vallee, he didn't advocate it. It was Vallee's idea. 

14 hours ago, SeekTruth said:

Um, yes. Hynek was here criticizing the E.T. hypothesis, not the Interdimensional hypothesis.

And where do his comments not apply exactly?

Perhaps you should read it again.

14 hours ago, SeekTruth said:

Yes, spaceship ideas were ridiculed, but so was the UFO topic at large. If you talked about seeing a UFO, or even of seriously considering the UFO phenomenon, you were almost certain to face ridicule. Heck, that is still largely true,

That's just not true. 

The UFO public turned on Hynek in Michigan. He genuinely investigated the phenomena for official sources. If what your saying was true that just wouldn't have happened. 

Some would have been laughed off. The air force encouraged UFO alien ideas to mask black ops. Pilots from area 51 have stated exactly that.

14 hours ago, SeekTruth said:

Friedman may very well have been a con man, but I'm not so sure. What has got you convinced he was?

Namely the BS he promoted on Roswell and the fact he called himself a scientist long after he stopped actually practising science. 

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