A Life Without Religion

[+Nuclear Wessel]

16 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

All you have are opinions concerning GOD.

So do you.

[Crazy Horse]

25 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

So do you.

I have more than mere opinions..

[+Nuclear Wessel]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I have more than mere opinions..

So you think. 

[Crazy Horse]

9 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

So you think. 

But I don't think, or at least as little as possible....

And its in that silence, and stillness, that one may know THAT.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

But I don't think, or at least as little as possible....

I gathered that already. 

[Crazy Horse]

1 minute ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I gathered that already. 

You make it sound like a bad thing...

Whereas, in actual fact, it is the greatest thing one may do for oneself, with the Grace of GOD it must be said.

Yet if you had the courage, to try it for yourself, (instead of gathering-up second-hand ideas and opinions) then you too might know THAT to-which I speak.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

16 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yet if you had the courage, to try it for yourself, (instead of gathering-up second-hand ideas and opinions) then you too might know THAT to-which I speak.

I'd rather not subscribe to mindless zealotry. I've already attempted to include Dog into my life, but Dog no listen/care.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[Crazy Horse]

8 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I'd rather not subscribe to mindless zealotry. I've already attempted to include Dog into my life, but Dog no listen/care.

Its your choice.

Good luck.

[fred_mc]

In my religion I believe in things where I see enough evidence to convince me. I have seen psychics, and people having had near-death-experiences, say things that are impossible for them to have knowledge about, so that has convinced me about that there is a spirit world. I'm also convinced about re-birth, also based on what I have seen, for example children claiming that they have been another person in an earlier life, saying things that would have been impossible for them to know but which has been verified to be correct. I'm not convinced about that there are Gods though, I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me of that.

[lightly]

9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

But the concept of God is derived from those deities. 

How can a wrong idea produce a right answer? 

     Well,   I'd say descriptions of God are derived from those deities. . deities are/were derived from concepts of God?

i had no idea I was so interesting     But I'm glad my question sparked such interesting discussion !

i admire you psyche ,and cormac, and all who devote so much time and effort to learning.   I confess, I am a bit lazy in that regard..and am usually content to understand a very basic outline of most subjects...which I can fill in my knowledge of as I feel a need to.   " deliberate ignorance ". . might be a little harsh.  

[cormac mac airt]

6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

But isn't that exactly why we built the LHC? To find out what the pre universe looked like and to test our scientific theories? The Higgs worked out pretty well, why wouldn't the BT models we have go where we have predicted them to as well? The god people pray to on Sunday isn't a particle. 

Science gives us no reason to think our philosiphises are correct. It doesn't say a god does or should exist either. God as you say has been kicked down the road. Science has shown the watchmaker principle is at fault, and that's pretty much the common idea of what God is. I can't say many people who believe in a god would be satisfied to call his a boson something like that. 

As far as science is concerned, god does not exist, there is nothing to measure, learn about or theorise about. It's just a popular idea. Untill there is, there is no god to quantify. It's just a story. 

But will, and the avenues we follow aren't anywhere near religious ideologies. 

Not even that I would say.

Science is more like a book we write answers in as we find them. Nature dictates the processes, we just report what we see. Religious ideologies start with a god answer that we made up by expanding the watchmaker principle and go from there. We didn't see something that indicates god, we haven't theorised that a god should exist. That's entirely different to a report IMHO. There's nothing in the universe that scream goddidit. Plenty does say it's a natural process. 

But again, if they don't exist then where does that leave the Casimir effect? How can it work otherwise? What reason I'd thee to doubt the existance if something that is widely regarded as very real? 

The god idea must predate creation if God is the creator. How can it work otherwise?

No. 
 

Quote

The LHC allows scientists to reproduce the conditions that existed within a billionth of a second after the Big Bang by colliding beams of high-energy protons or ions at colossal speeds, close to the speed of light.

https://stfc.ukri.org/research/particle-physics-and-particle-astrophysics/large-hadron-collider/

Exactly, so why do you keep making the claim that science says/proves something it doesn’t? 
 

And there you are, right back to making the same incorrect claim as to what science does or doesn’t say. 
 

The watchmaker principle is irrelevant to whatever is responsible for Creation as anything originating in 11 dimensional space IS NOT constrained by our understanding of “intelligent design” nor any form of sentience particularly since by it’s very existence (if such exists and whatever it is) it is necessarily beyond human comprehension. Again, science does not and can not make, with any validity or specificity, any claims on its existence. 

Science isn’t about claiming God, by whatever definition, exists. That’s religions job. 
 

The Casimir Effect only proves that “something” exists. It does not and cannot prove with any specificity that that “something” is either an infinitely dense, infinitely small singularity (which is already proven as mathematically impossible) nor an otherwise unobserved virtual particle. 

cormac

[+Nuclear Wessel]

3 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Casimir Effect only proves that “something” exists. It does not and cannot prove with any specificity that that “something” is either an infinitely dense, infinitely small singularity (which is already proven as mathematically impossible)

By whom, exactly?

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

By whom, exactly?

By the very math used to predict black holes in general to begin with. While general relativity may predict it (black holes, in sensu stricto) math does not and can not prove the existence of infinite density or an infinitely small singularity necessary nor can we actually see past the event horizon to observe what is actually going on at the heart of a black hole to prove same. If what goes on beyond an event horizon is where physics breaks down then math as we understand it is completely inadequate. Black holes, in sensu stricto, violate both physics and the Information Paradox as well in ways that a planck star, which would be extremely small BUT NOT infinitely small, would not. 
 

cormac

[+Hammerclaw]

Talking about mathematics is like talking about Chinese, without understanding or speaking a word of it. “Singularity” is descriptive of a point where the laws of physics don't apply, anymore. Relativity and Black Hole physics are incompatible with quantum mechanics and Planck scales. We have no theory, as yet, that reconciles conventional physics with quantum theory, so a singularity is just a point, where the rules of physics as we presently understand them, don't work. 

[+Sherapy]

9 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I'd rather not subscribe to mindless zealotry. I've already attempted to include Dog into my life, but Dog no listen/care.

Another one who imagines the voices in his head are special. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Sherapy

[cormac mac airt]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Talking about mathematics is like talking about Chinese, without understanding or speaking a word of it. “Singularity” is descriptive of a point where the laws of physics don't apply, anymore. Relativity and Black Hole physics are incompatible with quantum mechanics and Planck scales. We have no theory, as yet, that reconciles conventional physics with quantum theory, so a singularity is just a point, where the rules of physics as we presently understand them, don't work. 

That’s the problem, a singularity in itself cannot be proven and one with infinite density and infinitely small even less so. 
 

cormac

[Artaxerxes]

In rural towns in the South most of the social life revolves around being part of a church, such as church dinners, picnics, friends, singing, fishing with friends, movies, parties, etc.   For people from up North who move to a rural town in the South they are often unhappy and feel excluded because they are non religious and don't understand that being part of a church is more social than it is "religious".  Let's face it we all have questions and we pick and choose what we can believe and discard those things that we can't or won't believe.  In the New Testament in the book of Acts there are verses that state "they had all things in common and sold all that they had and gave to each as they had need" which is a pretty good description of communism.   I don't know of any western Christian church that does this and in fact most people who attend church are quite conservative capitalists!  LOL!  So they ignore those parts that that they don't want to believe and skip over them and just buy into those parts that sound good to them.   But I admit that I do like to sing and I love church dinners and I like the people and I also enjoy the socializing before and after church!    And my spiritual beliefs are more similar to near death experience and death bed vision and nearing death awareness and the holographic universe than standard western Christianity but they are also close enough that I have no problem in blending in.   I just ignore the stuff that makes me uncomfortable and enjoy the stuff that I like..... like Galatians 5 and Colossians 3 about being a good person and being compassionate and loving and forgiving.  I love this song by the way... Angels in the Room,  It's beautiful!   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTIHaDAUbQ

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Artaxerxes

[psyche101]

11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

No. 
 

https://stfc.ukri.org/research/particle-physics-and-particle-astrophysics/large-hadron-collider/

Exactly, so why do you keep making the claim that science says/proves something it doesn’t? 
 

And there you are, right back to making the same incorrect claim as to what science does or doesn’t say. 
 

I'm more than happy to stand corrected. You're right. I'm thinking of a primordial universe. 

11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

The watchmaker principle is irrelevant to whatever is responsible for Creation as anything originating in 11 dimensional space IS NOT constrained by our understanding of “intelligent design” nor any form of sentience particularly since by it’s very existence (if such exists and whatever it is) it is necessarily beyond human comprehension. Again, science does not and can not make, with any validity or specificity, any claims on its existence. 

It is however the basis for the popular version of god. 

I know you said earlier that definitions have expanded but I can't think of QM as the god people pray to. I don't agree that there's leeway in the title of God to expand that far. I'd consider that simply convoluting the pursuit of knowledge. 

11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Science isn’t about claiming God, by whatever definition, exists. That’s religions job. 

Isn't that because god doesn't exist though? 

If an entity such as god was to exist, I have little doubt that science would be feverishly working on the idea constantly. It's religions job because it's nothing more than a man made story isn't it? The only information regarding god that actually exists are the takes from ourselves. 

11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Casimir Effect only proves that “something” exists. It does not and cannot prove with any specificity that that “something” is either an infinitely dense, infinitely small singularity (which is already proven as mathematically impossible) nor an otherwise unobserved virtual particle. 

cormac

It does show a force which steadfastly supports the theory of virtual particles though. Perturbation theory and QFT also support virtual particles. Considering there is support from multiple sources, and aligns the equations, why would it be wrong? 

[psyche101]

17 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

All you have are opinions concerning GOD.

So therefore, your knowledge is not just limited, but non-existent, concerning GOD. (At least consciously, subconsciously you know everything, as we all do).

You're just not big on comprehension are you.

Please forgive this bluntness people. I know a couple of you are touchy.

I consider you just another zealous crackpot with an extremely tenuous grasp on reality. You might as well be telling me how you have backyard chats with your god. None of your zealous BS impresses or interests me. You're just another religious kook who doesn't want to learn anything because you already know it all. IMHO you need mental help. If dementia takes me down the road you are on, I hope my kids pull the plug.

As I mentioned. We know what you believe. Everyone who posts in the threads you do knows. I don't need to hear it again. It's just childish and silly. I have absolutely zero interest in your zealous outlook. 

What I did ask you to do is a description of your god. You say 'everything' but then say bad things aren't gods fault. Bad things fit nicely in the everything category. Honestly, everything is a rubbish answer. 

What I'm thinking is the place where Cormac and I really differ is on the definition of god. I don't feel that ascribing a title of a man made omnipotent entity to a process that occurs in nature is a fair definition or a good idea. I think that only created problems and convolutes the pursuit of real knowledge and makes science harder to understand.

[cormac mac airt]

41 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'm more than happy to stand corrected. You're right. I'm thinking of a primordial universe. 

It is however the basis for the popular version of god. 

I know you said earlier that definitions have expanded but I can't think of QM as the god people pray to. I don't agree that there's leeway in the title of God to expand that far. I'd consider that simply convoluting the pursuit of knowledge. 

Isn't that because god doesn't exist though? 

If an entity such as god was to exist, I have little doubt that science would be feverishly working on the idea constantly. It's religions job because it's nothing more than a man made story isn't it? The only information regarding god that actually exists are the takes from ourselves. 

It does show a force which steadfastly supports the theory of virtual particles though. Perturbation theory and QFT also support virtual particles. Considering there is support from multiple sources, and aligns the equations, why would it be wrong? 

No, it’s solely because of the fact that there is no way to test that hypothesis, which is what science does. 
 

Depends on how one defines God and just because you prefer to stick with the popular definition in no way means that the popular definition is the only definition. Far from it. If you want to say the popular version of God has been disproven you’re extremely late to the game as God/Yahweh was never originally a creator deity to begin with. But God, the concept of a Creator deity, neither you nor science has disproven and in at least the case of science it doesn’t even attempt to for the very reason in the previous point. 
 

They support virtual particles as a hypothetical as even the existence of virtual particles cannot be tested any more than an infinitely dense, infinitely small singularity can. They both look good on paper but realistically that’s about as far as it goes. And as far as hypotheticals go the effects of a black hole would be essentially indistinguishable from those of a planck star which actually doesn’t require infinite “anything” to operate. It’s also questionable as to a black hole having any “infinite” qualities as any black hole singularity of less size than 22 micrograms, the Planck Mass, would have already evaporated into nothing already. 
 

Quote

 

If you had a black hole — a perfect singularity — whose mass was 22 micrograms, how large would its event horizon be? The answer is that same distance scale (the Planck length) you started off with: ~10^-35 m. This fact illustrates why physicists say that the laws of reality “break down” at the Planck scale: the quantum fluctuations that must spontaneously occur are so large in magnitude, on scales so minuscule, that they’re indistinguishable from black holes.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/03/31/some-black-holes-are-impossible-in-our-universe/?sh=5d31af5d7c43

cormac

[+DieChecker]

 

21 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

GOD, as defined by some humans at least, is THE ALL, and Creation is held in the Mind of GOD, and therefore may expand or subtract at will.

Your knowledge on the subject is limited, held back by scepticism and doubt.

Otherwise you may know, experience, and feel THAT, for yourself.

And then one may speak from a place of knowing..

(Correct me if I am misremembering) Psyche grew up in a religious home, but was so scarred by abuse that he's more then just atheist. He's actively anti-religion. 

Problem with condemning all religion, because someone had a bad experience with one, is they're making a judgment based off one data point. 

Some people do experiment with multiple religions, or are super close with multiple people of multiple religions. But again, this is still limited data points.

I dont blame them. I pray they learn the Truth before they pass on. Christianity is the only religion that has love sacrifice, and forgiveness at its root. IMHO there's a very real reason its the world's premiere religion. 

[+DieChecker]

A life without religion us completely possible. Just as a life without love, joy, or hope, is possible. Just as a life living alone is possible. Or a life without speaking. Or a life without any human contact.

But living without those things reduces the experience. Adding religion, one that truely works for you, also adds to your experience of life.

Christianity for example provides unending love and forgiveness... Given from a distant sky father... But it similarly teaches to love and forgive each other. Something im not sure other religions teach as their bedrock.

But if love from an imaginary sky father is all you have, its better then no one loving you at all. The human psyche has needs after all.

Edited June 1, 2021 by DieChecker

[eight bits]

Hi, DC. Good to see you've recovered.

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But it similarly teaches to love and forgive each other. Something im not sure other religions teach as their bedrock.

It's fairly well woven into Judaism. For example, Sirach 28:2 almost matches Jesus's reported instruction at the cursing of the fig tree and suggests the relevant provision of the prayer attributed to him:

Quote

Forgive your neighbor the hurt that he has done, and then your sins will be pardoned when you pray.

Of course, the loving your neighbor is Leviticus 19:18

Quote

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh.

Yes, there has been an expansion over time in the sense of who is one's neighbor. (I am unsure that the ideal of universal brotherhood and sisterhood is fully accepted within any world religion even now, although that it is a worthy ideal is widely recognized, IMO).

I am not posting this to put Christianity down, just to say that there seem to be few good ideas that are unique to any religious grouping. The history of Christianity is much like the history of everybody else: encounter a good idea? Incorporate it into your own teaching and practice. Of course, Christianity was especially well placed to mine Judaism for its good ideas, just as Judaism had benefitted mightily from its historical opportunity to mine Perisan and Greek ideas. And so on back through the mists of time.

[XenoFish]

If it wasn't for over thinking, I might be a religious/spiritual person. I just can't shut my brain off for it. 

[Crazy Horse]

12 hours ago, Artaxerxes said:

In rural towns in the South most of the social life revolves around being part of a church, such as church dinners, picnics, friends, singing, fishing with friends, movies, parties, etc.   For people from up North who move to a rural town in the South they are often unhappy and feel excluded because they are non religious and don't understand that being part of a church is more social than it is "religious".  Let's face it we all have questions and we pick and choose what we can believe and discard those things that we can't or won't believe.  In the New Testament in the book of Acts there are verses that state "they had all things in common and sold all that they had and gave to each as they had need" which is a pretty good description of communism.   I don't know of any western Christian church that does this and in fact most people who attend church are quite conservative capitalists!  LOL!  So they ignore those parts that that they don't want to believe and skip over them and just buy into those parts that sound good to them.   But I admit that I do like to sing and I love church dinners and I like the people and I also enjoy the socializing before and after church!    And my spiritual beliefs are more similar to near death experience and death bed vision and nearing death awareness and the holographic universe than standard western Christianity but they are also close enough that I have no problem in blending in.   I just ignore the stuff that makes me uncomfortable and enjoy the stuff that I like..... like Galatians 5 and Colossians 3 about being a good person and being compassionate and loving and forgiving.  I love this song by the way... Angels in the Room,  It's beautiful!   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTIHaDAUbQ

 

Communism or community?

I would use the word community to describe the above quote.

Community being something that is rapidly being dismantled, and destroyed, right now.

Apart from that minor disagreement, I like the rest of your post.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Crazy Horse