A Life Without Religion

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Touche' 

But those people "feel" better... It might be self deception, but they are happier, especially if their ignorance is never challenged.

Placebo is a actual treatment, even if it is just deception. 

The discussion of religion and spirituality is more psychological than hard science. You can't really prove or disprove a belief. 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

16 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Not sure what the question is but a current report suggests that dark matter doesn’t exist after all. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252995

cormac

I always advise to take science news being reported by large news media outlets with a grain of salt. The source you're providing is contending with results that have an 8-σ level of confidence--that is very significant. Based on what I've read, your source doesn't take into account dark matter "observed" independently of any assumptions made of gravity, such as The Bullet Cluster.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/508162

What you've provided is certainly going to be of interest for further investigation.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[+DieChecker]

5 hours ago, Xeno-Fish said:

The discussion of religion and spirituality is more psychological than hard science. You can't really prove or disprove a belief. 

But you can collect data on how it makes people feel. Scientifically you can then form a hypothesis as to the usefulness of religion.

You can prove how a belief reflects on a practitioners quality of life.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

But you can collect data on how it makes people feel. Scientifically you can then form a hypothesis as to the usefulness of religion.

You can prove how a belief reflects on a practitioners quality of life.

True, but you can never prove or disprove the existence of deity. As there is not set standard for it. This whole subject is subjective. While one person may literally hate religion, another might be lifted out of a personal hell through it. 

[+Hammerclaw]

8 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Touche' 

But those people "feel" better... It might be self deception, but they are happier, especially if their ignorance is never challenged.

Placebo is a actual treatment, even if it is just deception. 

That's why I buy orange juice with pulp in.

[Guyver]

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

It saddens me a bit, but I understand your position. I'm also sad you were let down so much. I am happy you're a lot happier now though. I still hope that when/if confronted with the final Judgement that you think a minute and consider before you turn your back on God/Jesus. If it never happens then you have nothing to worry about, yeah?

Greetings.  I know you were speaking to Psyche here,  but I would like to address a couple of your points, Final Judgement and turning one’s back on God.  I’m guessing you believe in the various judgements spoken of in the New Testamemt and specifically the Great White Throne judgement?  I don’t believe in the Judgement personally because of the failed prophecies in the Bible which make it an unreliable source, IMO.  But if there is such a thing I would offer you a verse from the New Testament which states that mercy triumphs over judgement for your consideration.

Secondly, if God is omnipresent as the Bible teaches, there is no such thing as turning ones back to God, since no matter which way you turn, you’ll always be facing him.  However, if you were speaking figuratively, as I believe you were…I still take issue with the notion.  The reason is that God is not actually seen or known by anyone.  People see churches, temples, clergy, priests, nuns, and all the people in the church, but we don’t actually see God.  If anyone were to actually see or speak to God, then I would bet that person would not turn their back on God as seeing is believing.  But, if God never presents himself to a person, then I don’t think it’s right to say a person turned their back on God.  Maybe it’s the other way around?  Since God is no where to be seen, perhaps it is he who has turned his back on us.

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, Guyver said:

Greetings.  I know you were speaking to Psyche here,  but I would like to address a couple of your points, Final Judgement and turning one’s back on God.  I’m guessing you believe in the various judgements spoken of in the New Testamemt and specifically the Great White Throne judgement?  I don’t believe in the Judgement personally because of the failed prophecies in the Bible which make it an unreliable source, IMO.  But if there is such a thing I would offer you a verse from the New Testament which states that mercy triumphs over judgement for your consideration.

Myself, I believe in Mercy. My belief is that at the Judgement, when Jesus reads from the Book of Life, to see if the person is listed there, and then from the book of that person's life, He is reading that second book, not just to list the wrongs done, but to offer a discussion for repentance, and acceptance of Jesus as Savior. I believe when faced with this, almost anyone, besides, perhaps, a hardened skeptic, would repent and be Saved.

Quote

Secondly, if God is omnipresent as the Bible teaches, there is no such thing as turning ones back to God, since no matter which way you turn, you’ll always be facing him. However, if you were speaking figuratively, as I believe you were…I still take issue with the notion. The reason is that God is not actually seen or known by anyone. People see churches, temples, clergy, priests, nuns, and all the people in the church, but we don’t actually see God. If anyone were to actually see or speak to God, then I would bet that person would not turn their back on God as seeing is believing. But, if God never presents himself to a person, then I don’t think it’s right to say a person turned their back on God. Maybe it’s the other way around? Since God is no where to be seen, perhaps it is he who has turned his back on us.

I was speaking figuratively. 

Lots of people believe they "hear" God. In their head usually... There are others who believe they "Feel" Him. These people sincerely believe in these sensations. So turning your back would be sensing these things, but ignoring them in pursuit of personal actions.

It is an interesting idea that God would shun people. Its against what Jesus taught, I would think. Being there us supposedly forgiveness for most anything.

If I remember right the older definition of Hell wasn't a fiery hole, but was bring tossed outside of God's presence, into the Void as it were. Hell was the absence of God.

Edited June 4, 2021 by DieChecker

[lightly]

Religions are shared systems of beliefs and physical practices.. (material) . ..While Spirituality is simply a belief in spirit?  Dictionary :  Spirit - 1. The vital or animating force within living beings;  the soul.    Spiritual - 1. Of ,relating too, or consisting of spirit;  not tangible or material.   (not material)

.   One can have faith without religion. ?

[Crazy Horse]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:32 AM, Artaxerxes said:

My reference to communism is in regards to some verses in Acts (I think Acts 2?) saying "they had all things in common and sold all that they had and gave to each as had need"  (paraphrasing).   My point about it is that western Christians completely ignore these verses because it means that first century Christians were obviously practicing communism.... and nobody wants to sell all that have and split everything equally.  So they just skip over these verses and quote the ones that they like.   I do it, everybody does it but they don't admit it.  They hang onto the stuff that they like and agree with and ignore the stuff they don't.   But there is a lot I like about church like socializing, singing, and church dinners (which are awesome by the way!).   I really like the people and I am honest with our preacher and he knows what I believe.  I've even told him that I ignore the stuff that I don't like.   I have talked to people who have moved to rural towns in the South and they said that the people were standoffish and unfriendly but if they had gone to church and socialized with the people for a while pretty soon they would have made friends and gone fishing and stuff with them.  But going to church and being part of one is a major part of life in small rural Southern towns so it may be difficult to fit in if you are really anti religion.   I'm just saying.......  LOL!  

If one could respectfully disagree, but I don't think its communism per se, but simply a community.

Did they have to split everything equally, or did everybody get the things that they happen to lack, at that particular moment?

A community is some place where everybody has a basic understanding and level of trust born of certain ideas including to not rip each other off, and to help one another in times of need. Where a person could walk around, day or night, and feel 100% safe. THATS a Community!!!

Communism, for all its chit-chat, has a two tier class system. The workers, and the technocrats.

With a marked difference of living standards and life expectancy etc.

I don't think Jesus was a communist, maybe a revolutionary, a freedom fighter.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Crazy Horse

[Crazy Horse]

5 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

double post..

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Crazy Horse

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

Religions are shared systems of beliefs and physical practices.. (material) . ..While Spirituality is simply a belief in spirit?  Dictionary :  Spirit - 1. The vital or animating force within living beings;  the soul.    Spiritual - 1. Of ,relating too, or consisting of spirit;  not tangible or material.   (not material)

.   One can have faith without religion. ?

One may have faith without religion, only, religion in its truest sense is there to help support those who are trying to walk this path.

A community aspirants.

To guide one through the maze of distraction and the House of Ego.

But faith is a stand alone thing, and there is nobody between you and THAT.

 

 

[Guyver]

2 hours ago, lightly said:

Religions are shared systems of beliefs and physical practices.. (material) . ..While Spirituality is simply a belief in spirit?  Dictionary :  Spirit - 1. The vital or animating force within living beings;  the soul.    Spiritual - 1. Of ,relating too, or consisting of spirit;  not tangible or material.   (not material)

.   One can have faith without religion. ?

Absolutely.  People can have faith in all kinds of things, maybe we should try to define faith? Via the dictionary online, faith (n) is complete trust in someone or some thing.  I love my car and trust it completely.  It has never let me down once, and I’ve had it four almost 4 years and 50,000 miles on it.  I have faith in it.  I trust my Dad, completely.  I trust my wife, completely.  We could go on and on with this.  I have faith in myself in many areas and trust myself….but not completely because I have done some stupid **** before, and will probably do so again.

[Mr Walker]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:36 AM, Xeno-Fish said:

True, but you can never prove or disprove the existence of deity. As there is not set standard for it. This whole subject is subjective. While one person may literally hate religion, another might be lifted out of a personal hell through it. 

There is no set standard for an alien being, either (except that it comes from  off earth

Ie one does not have to have a set of characteristics, known and agreed upon,  to prove or disprove the existence of anything.

Many things in the real world have been discovered which, at the time of discovery,  never had an agreed upon set of characteristics.

  Those were only discovered with the entity or object .

I guess what you  are saying, and i agree with, is that all names are just labels 

The y only work if there is  some form of common agreement on the label and the object/entity. 

Thus, some might see  a powerful alien entity as a god, while others might not. 

We get bogged down in the Christian/biblical  variant of god, because it's so predominant in our cultures,  but how about if Thor or Anubis appeared on earth ? They would be instantly recognisable as gods, to many people.  

[JohnGP]

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

There is no set standard for an alien being, either (except that it comes from  off earth

Ie one does not have to have a set of characteristics, known and agreed upon,  to prove or disprove the existence of anything.

Many things in the real world have been discovered which, at the time of discovery,  never had an agreed upon set of characteristics.

  Those were only discovered with the entity or object .

I guess what you  are saying, and i agree with, is that all names are just labels 

The y only work if there is  some form of common agreement on the label and the object/entity. 

Thus, some might see  a powerful alien entity as a god, while others might not. 

We get bogged down in the Christian/biblical  variant of god, because it's so predominant in our cultures,  but how about if Thor or Anubis appeared on earth ? They would be instantly recognisable as gods, to many people.  

especially if you watch Stargate SG1

[Mr Walker]

25 minutes ago, JohnGP said:

especially if you watch Stargate SG1

Yes, or any of the marvel movies   (i once collected the entire set of Stargate and Stargate Atlantis dvds Must have cost me thousands of dollars over time  Eventually i sold the lot for $50 at a garage sale. because by then I could stream them . ) 

However, those are both based on classical descriptions of Anubis and Thor.

If either had appeared to me, as a child (back in the fifties before TV)   I would have known instantly who they were .The same for all the greco roman gods  and many others, because i was taught, or read, about such gods as a child. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Mr Walker

[psyche101]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:10 AM, cormac mac airt said:

So is an infinitely dense, infinitely small singularity or the actual virtual particle itself.

I don't think there are any papers saying an infinitely dense singularity has been verified via its effects though. That's a pretty significant distinction. 

Quote

That's just it the EFFECTS have been verified the cause HAS NOT, not in any observable manner in regards to VP or a black hole with infinite density, infinite small size/mass. Both are considered real only in the sense that their respective effects can be verified. As mentioned before since the effects of a black hole, in sensu stricto, are indistinguishible from a planck star how can it be said that such a black hole can be said to exist? It actually can't which is why the theory of a black hole in that sense is on its way out. 

Effectively speaking so is everything of a scientific nature that CAN'T be physically observed. "Because it works on paper" ISN"T evidence of somethings existence.

Because their effects are real, NOT so much the source of the effects. Even Heisenberg understood that there is a difference between "potentialities" and "facts". Science treats virtual particles, quantum fluctuations that spontaneously pop into and out of reality, as real based solely on the effects and NOT on the observed existence of the virtual particle or particles themselves.

Wouldn't gravity fall under the same distinction? 

The effects are verified through multiple sources that confirm each other. Considering that the 'particles' are virtual, there's not really any more to observe than there is gravity. Multiple points of confirmation just support the information further 

Quote

No, how did we get here, as a question, started with the "here and now" of the times and an attempt (however highly faulty) to extrapolate its cause into the past. God, as a single Creator deity was never originally agreed on by ancient civilizations. Example: El didn't create everything in the same exact way as the later J-C Yahweh is believed to have done. 

The crux of the problem isn't with your belief/knowledge/whatever that God doesn't exist it's with the problem that you continue to state science says something that not only DOESN'T it say but it doesn't even attempt to. 

cormac

Yes, I agree, montheism polytheism and pantheism are all in support of no single creator deity.

They do all allude to god being a consiouness being with a particular intent though. Even a particular interest in our species. 

As such, I'd say that's more semantics there. I just can't fathom your definition of god in this instance. It's physics. As such, religious ideas have no place there IMHO. I can already see at least one poster has translated what you call God to extend to any deity. It's like creationists. They mix together and end up with terms and myths to concoct a messy steaming pile of utter nonsense. Using the term God here is just troublesome and unecessarily confusing.

Science didn't have to set out to disprove current man made deities. I agree with that. That was just a default. It eroded them as discoveries were made. We know the earth isn't six thousand years old, we know nobody flipped switches to let there be light, we know some deity didn't make clay dolls and give them life, bringing humans into existence. Like Thor and his hammer, man made deities have become redundant with new knowledge. All that remains is an emotional attachment labelled spirituality. You may be well aware that Yaweh wasn't supposed to be a creator god, but very few, and I do mean very few are aware of that. Those claiming to be expert's in that area I know would disagree with you. Heck I saw Cardinal Pell on TV saying we evolved from Neanderthals. The most adhered to version of god is closer to Morgan Freeman than a gHz measurement. I don't think that religion would accept the definition either. I can see how you are applying it, but I don't think it's a great idea to be honest. Considering your definition I would revise the statement to say science had made man made deities and religious ideas redundant. 

[psyche101]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:25 PM, Guyver said:

The reformation was awesome, but….I don’t understand how those supposedly smart thinkers like Thomas Aquinas and all the other guys couldn’t have figured out that it was pretty lame to think you could slay a goat and be forgiven for sins.  

The reformation was a rewrite, so they didn't have much to start with I guess.

[Golden Duck]

On 6/2/2021 at 7:38 PM, Xeno-Fish said:

You can say the same thing about common sense

[Artaxerxes]

Don't forget Church Dinners!  They are awesome!  The church I used to go to in Athens, Georgia where I lived when I was a student had church dinners for the students every Sunday!  There were like 4 or 5 big tables with all kinds of food and then about 3 tables with desserts!   The people were really nice and I ended up working on a dairy farm of one of the men who went to church there.  I was an Animal Science major and learned a lot about working with large animals with all the experience I got working there.  And oh yeah, I found my wife at church and we've been married for 47 years now.   It helped me learn how to be a stable and functional human being.     

[Will Due]

 

There are reasons for choosing to live without religion but "the revelation of the truth about God is appearing" and this phase we're in, of not knowing much of what's true about God, will soon end.

 

 

"Religious tradition is the imperfectly preserved record of the experiences of the God-knowing men of past ages, but such records are untrustworthy as guides for religious living or as the source of true information about the Universal Father. Such ancient beliefs have been invariably altered by the fact that primitive man was a mythmaker.

4:5.2

"The barbarous idea of appeasing an angry God, of propitiating an offended Lord, of winning the favor of Deity through sacrifices and penance and even by the shedding of blood, represents a religion wholly puerile and primitive, a philosophy unworthy of an enlightened age of science and truth. Such beliefs are utterly repulsive and it is an affront to God to believe, hold, or teach that innocent blood must be shed in order to win his favor or to divert the fictitious divine wrath.

4:5.5

"What a travesty upon the infinite character of God! this teaching that his fatherly heart in all its austere coldness and hardness was so untouched by the misfortunes and sorrows of his creatures that his tender mercies were not forthcoming until he saw his blameless Son bleeding and dying upon the cross of Calvary!

4:5.7

"But now, we are to find deliverance from these ancient errors and pagan superstitions respecting the nature of the Universal Father. The revelation of the truth about God is appearing, and the human race is destined to know the Universal Father in all that beauty of character and loveliness of attributes so magnificently portrayed by the Creator Son who sojourned here in the not so distant past as the Son of Man and the Son of God.

 

Meaning of the Death on the Cross

 

 

 

[Guyver]

Will Due, regarding your post above, are you referring to the second coming of Christ?

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Will Due, regarding your post above, are you referring to the second coming of Christ?

 

I'm referring to what the Urantia Book says about "that beauty of character and loveliness of attributes" in regard to the Universal Father, that was "so magnificently portrayed" by the way Jesus lived his life on earth. You can read about some of that here.

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Will Due

[ant0n]

On 5/25/2021 at 5:03 AM, Guyver said:

Can you imagine a life without religion or do you have one?  I do.  I have chosen to live my life without religion - unless it’s a religion that I make up for myself.  So, I’m going for it.  I’m making up my own religion and choosing what to believe in.  Have you ever thought of making up your own religion?  I bet you could get really crazy with it…..but, I’m trying to keep it really simple, so for now, I like Math, Science, Natural Observation, Contemplation and Study, plus the Eleven Rules of the Earth.  I’m not saying I am a Satanist, but I like some of the rules they made better than the Ten Commandments.  

Please define 'religion'.

[Guyver]

31 minutes ago, ant0n said:

Please define 'religion'.

Religion (n) a particular system of faith and worship.

[ant0n]

3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Religion (n) a particular system of faith and worship.

What makes it "particular"?