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Guyver

A Life Without Religion

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Guyver
13 hours ago, lightly said:

I guess that's true psyche, Except it's not really a conclusion ,or an answer, on my part...it's just an idea and a strong belief that I seem to be stuck on.  ;)     I've had this belief ever since I was a toddler sitting beside my mom in church...I just couldn't accept the God in the sky idea.  Even then I saw and sensed a more immediate 'answer'.  I don't understand it either :P

It certainly is something to consider that we may be here by accident of the universe.  It seems by observation that we would have to have been made intentionally in some way - in the minds of many people.

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Guyver

 

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psyche101
21 hours ago, closed for business said:

 

Lightly is a well intended member and appreciate your honest efforts to objectively test those points of difference and applaud your diligence for science as a realistic means of interpreting what our environment is and how do we relate to it to it Lightly has a life that may be vastly different tthen what you or I experience so neither of us can claim any more than it works for me

It's perspective. This is a discussion forum, and I'm aquainted with lightly, no introductions required. 

We are recycled the way way car tyres are recycled into oil steel and carbon. The glass of water you drank today has molecules of dinosaur pee in it. 

Facts are, despite ones outlook or views on life, things are what they are.

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psyche101
16 hours ago, lightly said:

I guess that's true psyche, Except it's not really a conclusion ,or an answer, on my part...it's just an idea and a strong belief that I seem to be stuck on.  ;)     I've had this belief ever since I was a toddler sitting beside my mom in church...I just couldn't accept the God in the sky idea.  Even then I saw and sensed a more immediate 'answer'.  I don't understand it either :P

I don't mean to be rude, but you have had a lifetime to work on this. You're still at square one. Wouldn't a revision be a good idea? Isn't that why you're here? There isn't any evidence to support your idea, you must be onto that by now, surely alternative ideas are what your looking for, unless it actually is a conclusion?

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closed for business
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's perspective. This is a discussion forum, and I'm aquainted with lightly, no introductions required. 

We are recycled the way way car tyres are recycled into oil steel and carbon. The glass of water you drank today has molecules of dinosaur pee in it. 

Facts are, despite ones outlook or views on life, things are what they are.

Hi Psyche

My intent was to express thanks to you for taking the time even though you know that Lightly has a concept that works for him and is likely not going to change for him. I like him because not unlike Hammer he doesn't preach or claim god told him anything. To be honest I can follow many subjects on science and it is because I understand our educational system that I accept what scientists say as I cannot have an experience of a subatomic particle nor do I have the education or equipment to verify it for myself. My interests are more inclined to human evolution and make no claim to being all the knowledgeable but do have a better feel for it because there is a sense experience of fossil and the context that it is found in and can personally observe. I wasn't trying to argue

jmccr8

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lightly
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I don't mean to be rude, but you have had a lifetime to work on this. You're still at square one. Wouldn't a revision be a good idea? Isn't that why you're here? There isn't any evidence to support your idea, you must be onto that by now, surely alternative ideas are what your looking for, unless it actually is a conclusion?

Your not being rude, I can easily understand your view...on my view.  And, yup, I guess I am still at square one.   Aren't all beliefs at square one?   I'm guessing you view any belief as irrelevant? ..in favor of the view that there is only knowing and not knowing?    That's fine.  Seems logical enough.   I don't hold any belief with absolute certainty..just as I honestly don't Know anything  with absolute certainty either,  oddly enough , that's just the way I am.  

you ask. " isn't that why your here? ".  Here in UM ?  Or here in life ? If the latter, that is a deeply philosophical ,and surprising, question.  I'd guess you ,being completely Fact based, would think there is no why....only how . ?

and you say " surely alternative ideas are what your looking for"    Well, I do enjoy learning from other people's perspectives ,in here. .and learning new things.

    Evidence?  I believe all of Existence is Evidence ...  Not conclusively , or certainly, or factually,   just believably. ;)

    

  

Edited by lightly
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JohnGP

I put aside religion nearly 20 years ago.  I grew up in a family that was religious and my questions about religion quickly outgrew the ability the church leader's ability to answer. I went through a period of intense examination of religious beliefs - mostly Christian.  In my 50's I embraced Buddhism as a way of life and have simply put religion into the "not necessary" for my happiness category.  Religion remains for me a great mystery, but not one which I necessarily need to solve. I do believe in "gods" , but not necessarily in "God". 

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lightly

Welcome aboard JohnGP  .   .:)

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Guyver
11 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's perspective. This is a discussion forum, and I'm aquainted with lightly, no introductions required. 

We are recycled the way way car tyres are recycled into oil steel and carbon. The glass of water you drank today has molecules of dinosaur pee in it. 

Facts are, despite ones outlook or views on life, things are what they are.

I did not know that tires could be recycled into oil, steel, and carbon, and that it could be shown that water has molecules of dinosaur pee in it.  This link states that most recycled tires are used as fuel, or put back in the ground.  Link

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Guyver
3 hours ago, JohnGP said:

I put aside religion nearly 20 years ago.  I grew up in a family that was religious and my questions about religion quickly outgrew the ability the church leader's ability to answer. I went through a period of intense examination of religious beliefs - mostly Christian.  In my 50's I embraced Buddhism as a way of life and have simply put religion into the "not necessary" for my happiness category.  Religion remains for me a great mystery, but not one which I necessarily need to solve. I do believe in "gods" , but not necessarily in "God". 

Thanks for posting.  What type of gods do you believe in, and why do you believe in more than one, if you don’t mind me asking.

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Guyver
3 hours ago, lightly said:

Your not being rude, I can easily understand your view...on my view.  And, yup, I guess I am still at square one.   Aren't all beliefs at square one?   I'm guessing you view any belief as irrelevant? ..in favor of the view that there is only knowing and not knowing?    That's fine.  Seems logical enough.   I don't hold any belief with absolute certainty..just as I honestly don't Know anything  with absolute certainty either,  oddly enough , that's just the way I am.    

Can anyone know anything with absolute certainty?  I guess there are some things that could be known with absolute certainty, like certain math facts which can be proven and so forth.  But in general it seems as though there are exceptions to almost every rule.  This would make it hard to know things with absolute certainty, IMO.

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lightly
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Can anyone know anything with absolute certainty?  I guess there are some things that could be known with absolute certainty, like certain math facts which can be proven and so forth.  But in general it seems as though there are exceptions to almost every rule.  This would make it hard to know things with absolute certainty, IMO.

Can anyone know anything with absolute certainty?       I'm not sure :P.    I like your math example though.  I suppose we can be fairly certain that 1+1=2. .everytime?   Oddly enough, the one thing I'm most certain of is 'my' awareness of BEING   Whatever 'I' Am ,and even oddlier enough ,  that is what makes me believe that the 'rest' of the universe is exactly the same way.  The same as 'me'.    Aware of BEING.     The idea isn't original , for one, it's very similar to aspects of Hindhuism.. which is sort of where i ,also, discovered it years ago.  It just rang true to me.   ;)       I can understand why it doesn't for others.

      Sorry if I've dragged things off topic... I'll cool it. :)

Edited by lightly

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Guyver
37 minutes ago, lightly said:

Can anyone know anything with absolute certainty?       I'm not sure :P.    I like your math example though.  I suppose we can be fairly certain that 1+1=2. .everytime?   Oddly enough, the one thing I'm most certain of is 'my' awareness of BEING   Whatever 'I' Am ,and even oddlier enough ,  that is what makes me believe that the 'rest' of the universe is exactly the same way.  The same as 'me'.    Aware of BEING.     The idea isn't original , for one, it's very similar to aspects of Hindhuism.. which is sort of where i ,also, discovered it years ago.  It just rang true to me.   ;)       I can understand why it doesn't for others.

      Sorry if I've dragged things off topic... I'll cool it. :)

You haven’t dragged things off topic.  Whether we like it or not, all of us believe things.  

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psyche101
12 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Psyche

My intent was to express thanks to you for taking the time even though you know that Lightly has a concept that works for him and is likely not going to change for him. I like him because not unlike Hammer he doesn't preach or claim god told him anything. To be honest I can follow many subjects on science and it is because I understand our educational system that I accept what scientists say as I cannot have an experience of a subatomic particle nor do I have the education or equipment to verify it for myself. My interests are more inclined to human evolution and make no claim to being all the knowledgeable but do have a better feel for it because there is a sense experience of fossil and the context that it is found in and can personally observe. I wasn't trying to argue

jmccr8

Hi J

No worries, sorry if I seemed abrupt, looking back I think I might have been a bit. 

I actually dont mind lightly at all. It might seem I give him a hard time, guess he just piques my interest with his approach. I find for me it goes to very logical to the opposite end of the spectrum. I guess that's what I like about lightly, one post I might be nodding in agreement, the very next wondering how he could possibly find a certain conclusion. 

It keeps one on their toes. It makes me think about things I do know and keeps them fresh. There are a couple posters I do detest, but lightly isn't one of them.

But as I said, I wonder if lightly is almost subconsciously seeking that epiphany that some find makes sense of everything. That's more what I was interested in. He says he has had this idea since childhood. It's not going anywhere, but I wonder what lightly finds stacking that long held conclusion when all these different aspects are introduced. Is it still as powerful or has so many other views and facts altered that? 

I would say it's strange to insist a childhood thought is still valid a lifetime later. I wonder what keeps lightly in that track of thought.

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psyche101
9 hours ago, Guyver said:

I did not know that tires could be recycled into oil, steel, and carbon, and that it could be shown that water has molecules of dinosaur pee in it.  This link states that most recycled tires are used as fuel, or put back in the ground.  Link

:tu:

It mentions low grade carbon and steel too.

Dinosaur pee......

https://www.indiatoday.in/mad-mad-world/story/drinking-water-dinosaur-urine-291347-2015-05-28#:~:text=So chances are that in,been drunk by a dinosaur."

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closed for business
5 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Hi J

No worries, sorry if I seemed abrupt, looking back I think I might have been a bit. 

I actually dont mind lightly at all. It might seem I give him a hard time, guess he just piques my interest with his approach. I find for me it goes to very logical to the opposite end of the spectrum. I guess that's what I like about lightly, one post I might be nodding in agreement, the very next wondering how he could possibly find a certain conclusion. 

It keeps one on their toes. It makes me think about things I do know and keeps them fresh. There are a couple posters I do detest, but lightly isn't one of them.

But as I said, I wonder if lightly is almost subconsciously seeking that epiphany that some find makes sense of everything. That's more what I was interested in. He says he has had this idea since childhood. It's not going anywhere, but I wonder what lightly finds stacking that long held conclusion when all these different aspects are introduced. Is it still as powerful or has so many other views and facts altered that? 

I would say it's strange to insist a childhood thought is still valid a lifetime later. I wonder what keeps lightly in that track of thought.

Hi Psyche

Thanks and well said.:tu:

I think we find a comfort point in life and who know how many billions of them are out there, mine came down to we created gods and see man as the cause of all our glory and misery and go from there all I really have to be in this life is a good man and learn. Not everyone has the same interests or makes the same observation so it is for me interesting to see what someone else saw knowing we didn't see the same thing. I don't know that Lightly's acceptance on an universal being comprising of all. as needing to be anything more than to be aware of it and tend to think his early Christian life gave him a moral standard to go by and doesn't create a mythology for it so it can exist as an entity. A form of belonging to something greater that doesn't need to be a join the club thing so it is simple and easy. 

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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

I would say it's strange to insist a childhood thought is still valid a lifetime later. I wonder what keeps lightly in that track of thought?

Perhaps because over his lifetime, while every other notion, feeling, wisdom or desire has fallen away with the passing years, that one yearning, that single moment of clarity has remained his one true constant and his compass through all doubt, through all adversity. Knowledge is elusive, sometimes gained and sometime never. What we are left with are feelings, thoughts and emotions, what we choose to follow, what we choose to believe, even if it is but only questions without answers. They stand the test of time with one alone, with no need of the affirmation of others. Only a fool needs the beliefs of others to back up his own beliefs; he is irresistibly drawn to follow his own star. Lightly seeks an answer to his enduring question and perhaps, beyond the vail of tears, he will, at last, find it.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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closed for business
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

We use tire to mix with out tar for roads and a variety of other road maintenance products

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psyche101
11 hours ago, lightly said:

Your not being rude, I can easily understand your view...on my view.  And, yup, I guess I am still at square one.   Aren't all beliefs at square one?   I'm guessing you view any belief as irrelevant? ..in favor of the view that there is only knowing and not knowing?    That's fine.  Seems logical enough.   I don't hold any belief with absolute certainty..just as I honestly don't Know anything  with absolute certainty either,  oddly enough , that's just the way I am.  

you ask. " isn't that why your here? ".  Here in UM ?  Or here in life ? If the latter, that is a deeply philosophical ,and surprising, question.  I'd guess you ,being completely Fact based, would think there is no why....only how . ?

and you say " surely alternative ideas are what your looking for"    Well, I do enjoy learning from other people's perspectives ,in here. .and learning new things.

    Evidence?  I believe all of Existence is Evidence ...  Not conclusively , or certainly, or factually,   just believably. ;)

    

  

Thanks. 

There are things we can know with certainty. I.E.

5 hours ago, lightly said:

Can anyone know anything with absolute certainty?       I'm not sure :P.    I like your math example though.  I suppose we can be fairly certain that 1+1=2. .everytime?

Yes we can.

What reason do you have to doubt that?

Thing is its the same with physics. Most people aren't across physics as math, regardless, it's true. And why we can have answers.

See, when you're asking things like does one plus one equal two everytime, I honestly wonder if you're not more trying to create conundrums where they don't actually exist. Perhaps the idea if not knowing appeals to you more than knowing? 

And yes, I'm specifically referring to UM. That you often repeat yourd personal view spiearz a call fur validation. I.E. is anyone else out there thinking this.

Do you learn from other perspectives? Because of your insistence that there is some universal consciousness, I get the feeling you view other thoughts as more a novelty rather than actual discussion.

Maybe it's just my views, but that's what I get from your posting.

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psyche101
16 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Psyche

Thanks and well said.:tu:

I think we find a comfort point in life and who know how many billions of them are out there, mine came down to we created gods and see man as the cause of all our glory and misery and go from there all I really have to be in this life is a good man and learn. Not everyone has the same interests or makes the same observation so it is for me interesting to see what someone else saw knowing we didn't see the same thing. I don't know that Lightly's acceptance on an universal being comprising of all. as needing to be anything more than to be aware of it and tend to think his early Christian life gave him a moral standard to go by and doesn't create a mythology for it so it can exist as an entity. A form of belonging to something greater that doesn't need to be a join the club thing so it is simple and easy. 

Cheers bro.

Doesn't it also reject modern knowledge though? 

I really dont 'get' people who refer back to ancient ideas as opposed to modern knowledge myself. It's almost an insult to the myriad of mind's that have contributed to raising that bar. I'm not sure why some feel a need to incorporate a higher power. What lightly is sharing may not be the traditional mythological version of religion, but it's clearly a derivative. Like most spiritual ideas, it appears to reject what has been shown as nonsensical in this day and age and the rest moulded into a more palatable tale.

Is that really required for some people to face life, or is it simply an excuse not to learn, or become an instant expert? Is that what some people really need to get through a day? If so, is belief really a good thing at all? Should it be encouraged? 

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Hammerclaw
13 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

Maybe it's just my views, but that's what I get from your posting.

What I get from your posting is that you prefer answers that can't be questioned, and Lightly delights in questions that can't be answered. It's a fool who has said in his heart there is no God versus one who has drunk, perhaps too deeply, of that opiate of the masses. Believers both, diametrically opposed.

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psyche101
36 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Perhaps because over his lifetime, while every other notion, feeling, wisdom or desire has fallen away with the passing years, that one yearning, that single moment of clarity has remained his one true constant and his compass through all doubt, through all adversity. Knowledge is elusive, sometimes gained and sometime never. What we are left with are feelings, thoughts and emotions, what we choose to follow, what we choose to believe, even if it is but only questions without answers. They stand the test of time with one alone, with no need of the affirmation of others. Only a fool needs the beliefs of others to back up his own beliefs; he is irresistibly drawn to follow his own star. Lightly seeks an answer to his enduring question and perhaps, beyond the vail of tears, he will, at last, find it.

It seems much more akin to flogging a dead horse.

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Hammerclaw
Just now, psyche101 said:

It seems much more akin to flogging a dead horse.

The one you've been flogging for years? You should lighten up, no pun intended. 

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closed for business
3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Cheers bro.

Doesn't it also reject modern knowledge though? 

I really dont 'get' people who refer back to ancient ideas as opposed to modern knowledge myself. It's almost an insult to the myriad of mind's that have contributed to raising that bar. I'm not sure why some feel a need to incorporate a higher power. What lightly is sharing may not be the traditional mythological version of religion, but it's clearly a derivative. Like most spiritual ideas, it appears to reject what has been shown as nonsensical in this day and age and the rest moulded into a more palatable tale.

Is that really required for some people to face life, or is it simply an excuse not to learn, or become an instant expert? Is that what some people really need to get through a day? If so, is belief really a good thing at all? Should it be encouraged? 

Not sure really but he has been successful enough in his daily life and does not seem to be disagreeable so he is older and is comfortable in his life other that that I cannot comment more as it would be an inaccurate projection on my part.

I knew a fellow that was attached to a childhood blanket and would stress because he couldn't take it to school with him so his mom cut small pieces from it and sewed it into one pocket in each pair on pants that he had and was an established lawyer by the time he moved past it.

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psyche101
9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

What I get from your posting is that you prefer answers that can't be questioned, and Lightly delights in questions that can't be answered. It's a fool who has said in his heart there is no God versus one who has drunk, perhaps too deeply, of that opiate of the masses. Believers both, diametrically opposed.

Not quite, some answers aren't able to be questioned although some insist that is the case. Some people seem to think everything is an unknown. That's just not the case. That's just deliberate ignorance. 

The smartest people on the planet say there is not god. Perhaps once it was considered foolish to dismiss the god idea. That's not the case today. A much more pertinent question for current times is why should a god exist at all. 

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