Are we all slaves to unconscious forces ?

[UM-Bot]

We all make hundreds of decisions every day, but by how much are these influenced by unconscious factors ?

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/347247/are-we-all-slaves-to-unconscious-forces

[SHaYap]

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[josellama2000]

What a question. unconscious factors should include instincts that make us what we are along with consciousness. Without reciprocity, social skills, love, and self-preservation treats, we will not be humans.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by josellama2000

[spartan max2]

Yeah. It's called the subconscious. Most of pur brain is devoted to subconscious stuff.

Edited May 27, 2021 by spartan max2

[quiXilver]

Choice is illusory.  That which drives our actions and thinking arises from beneath the threshold of conscious thinking.

Compulsions due to bio and socio conditioning are the realm of motivational impulse drivers.

The thinking mind labels, interprets and rationalizes the impulses and often creates a scenario/story around which we ascribe the interpretive mind with the awareness that drove the actions.

 

[Twin]

I spent 2 years in Rat Lab. At that time the official doctrine of the college was; Rats have no free will, therefor humans do not.

[Twin]

Sorry, I missed the "e" in therefore; I had no control.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Twin
Duhhh

[josellama2000]

1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

Choice is illusory.  That which drives our actions and thinking arises from beneath the threshold of conscious thinking.

Compulsions due to bio and socio conditioning are the realm of motivational impulse drivers.

The thinking mind labels, interprets and rationalizes the impulses and often creates a scenario/story around which we ascribe the interpretive mind with the awareness that drove the actions.

 

Agree, according to most physicists including Roger Penrose and Stephen Hawkins, free-will (and choice) is illusory. Destinies (histories) are already set but they are not computable for us.   We live our life, but our life was already set before we were born, almost like how reincarnation believers postulate that we "choose" the live we want to be born into to burn karma.

Edited May 27, 2021 by josellama2000

[XenoFish]

The subconscious decision making process is largely habitual. Meaning that by making the same or similar choices consistently it becomes easier to make the same or similar choices. We can change these behavioral patterns the same way we created them. Through repetition. If you want to believe in a deterministic universe that's fine by me. Just don't complain when things don't go your way, cry when people die, or get angry with others for not seeing the world your way. Because it's all pre-determined, they had no choice, you have no choice, blah, blah, blah. I swear. Might as well just say god did it and be done with it. 

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, Xeno-Fish said:

The subconscious decision making process is largely habitual. Meaning that by making the same or similar choices consistently it becomes easier to make the same or similar choices. We can change these behavioral patterns the same way we created them. Through repetition. If you want to believe in a deterministic universe that's fine by me. Just don't complain when things don't go your way, cry when people die, or get angry with others for not seeing the world your way. Because it's all pre-determined, they had no choice, you have no choice, blah, blah, blah. I swear. Might as well just say god did it and be done with it. 

Yeah.

While I agree in a philosophical sense that everything is predetermined due to it being a cause and effect universes. Starting from the big bang.

I agree that that mentality shouldn't be taken beyond the point of philosophical musings.

Like you said repetition. Our brain signals follow the paths of least resistance. Everytime you do something it makes one of the roads deeper.

To change we have to consciously make a new road until it becomes the path of least resistance.

Edited May 28, 2021 by spartan max2

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Yeah.

While I agree in a philosophical sense that everything is predetermined due to it being a cause and effect universes. Starting from the big bang.

I agree that that mentality shouldn't be taken beyond the point of philosophical musings.

Like you said repetition. Our brain signals follow the paths of least resistance. Everytime you do something it makes one of the roads deeper.

To change we have to consciously make a new road until it becomes the path of least resistance.

Habit formation seems to be very overlooked. If you've eaten 100X more cupcakes than apples, which is the easiest choice. The cupcake. You can even hit an internal struggle with such a choice. If however you can reprogramming that choice the other option might become easier. 

[Tatetopa]

I am not sure that lack of free will  requires predetermination.  The infinite universe can operate on a finite set of physical laws with an infinite number of choices along each particle interaction path determined by probability. . The universe may not be predetermined. I don't think it is.  Some people might decide that the mind of God has already resolved all of the probability interactions.  That is another opinion, but maybe not so useful for calculations.

My view that the universe is not predetermined does not give me certainty that humans have free will. 

[Susanc241]

6 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Like you said repetition. Our brain signals follow the paths of least resistance. Everytime you do something it makes one of the roads deeper.

To change we have to consciously make a new road until it becomes the path of least resistance.

I would go a bit further and say that getting out of these ‘ruts’ in the pathway ‘roads’ is extremely difficult because I believe that the brain has already made the decision to choose a rut appropriate for what you are experiencing before you even consciously realise what your response will/should be.  It’s only when the thought processes are already hurtling along the pathway and you are mentally committed that you appreciate the difficulty of reversing or diverting.   Not sure I have explained myself well here, but maybe you get the idea.

[XenoFish]

A little bit of info on habits.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habit

[Podo]

We're all just a bunch of meat robots following our basic impulses. The idea that we're anything more than that seems very...optimistic, to me.

[docyabut2]

Are we all slaves to unconscious forces ?

Nope,all slavery here are to conscious not unconscious, of all the people had slaves in their ansesters in ancient times and even the blacks had their own chiefs sold them their lives into slavery

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Are we all slaves to unconscious forces ?

I think you've misunderstood the topic. It's about our minds. That our un/subconscious thought processes control us more than conscious intention. 

[docyabut2]

7 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

I think you've misunderstood the topic. It's about our minds. That our un/subconscious thought processes control us more than conscious intention. 

true but what's happing in my country in subconscious thoughts going into them  ?

Edited June 3, 2021 by docyabut2

[XenoFish]

Just now, docyabut2 said:

true but what's happing in my country in subconscious thoughts ?

That has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. It's about us (as individuals) and how we are somewhat controlled by our un/subconscious. 

Think of it this way. If you eat oatmeal every single morning for lets say one month. The choice to eat oatmeal for breakfast becomes easy. A choice where little conscious input is needed. This is similar to choosing to eat a cookie instead of an apple. Depending on personal taste you might choose one or the other. 

Does this make sense? 

[docyabut2]

8 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

That has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. It's about us (as individuals) and how we are somewhat controlled by our un/subconscious. 

Think of it this way. If you eat oatmeal every single morning for lets say one month. The choice to eat oatmeal for breakfast becomes easy. A choice where little conscious input is needed. This is similar to choosing to eat a cookie instead of an apple. Depending on personal taste you might choose one or the other. 

Does this make sense? 

I do know life has decisions,  but what's puts in their minds  

Edited June 3, 2021 by docyabut2

[XenoFish]

48 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I do know life has decisions,  but what's puts in their minds  

Ideas are put in to their minds.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Xeno-Fish

[Alchopwn]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:44 AM, UM-Bot said:

We all make hundreds of decisions every day, but by how much are these influenced by unconscious factors ?

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/347247/are-we-all-slaves-to-unconscious-forces

This is an easy conclusion to make, given the time lapse between pre-thought impulse (PTI) to thought to action.  On the other hand, let us think again.  We simply don't know much for certain about what consciousness is.  We can tell when someone is awake, and even predict when someone will wake up from monitoring them with reasonable reliability, but we don't know what consciousness is.  Obviously every action we take must have some pre-thought impulse before we act, but what is the relationship of this to consciousness.  I mean, for example, here I am, typing letters on a keyboard.  In effect I am taking the abstract ideas of neurology and filtering them through my brain's language centers, and then abstracting them into characters by way of the tool of a computer keyboard which I am typing on at 45wpm.  In a Darwinian sense, what is the survival motivation for this that would correspond to an unconscious factor that promotes the survival of the species in what I am doing here?  This question is, I think, too "meta" for a simplistic reference to unconscious processes.  Human beings show a huge capacity to overcome their instinctual processes, and those instincts are the primary meaning and motivator of what the unconscious mind is all about in modern psychology.  We as psychologists and a species simply don't know what the pre-thought impulses are, and how they specifically relate to conscious thought and the conscious mind i.e. where they fall within the process of thinking.  To highlight this, please consider this example.  I sit down to type, and there is obviously PTI before I hit those keys in a complex sequence, and I will mistype a number of letters as I go, and then I will re-read what I have written and in the process I will parse it for typos, expression, and grammar.  The $64 question is, when I am already thinking, where does the PTI start and end when I am editing?  Are my higher functions incorporating my PTI, or subsuming it, or is the PTI governing the whole process unconsciously as I go about?  Where does one thought end and another thought begin?  Where does one PTI end and another PTI begin?

[docyabut2]

19 hours ago, Xeno-Fish said:

I think you've misunderstood the topic. It's about our minds. That our un/subconscious thought processes control us more than conscious intention. 

thats why we should block our minds into any thing ,and take in meditation:)

Meditation is a mind and body practice that has a long history of use for increasing calmness and physical relaxation, improving psychological balance, coping with illness, and enhancing overall health and well-being. Mind and body practices focus on the interactions among the brain, mind, body, and behavior.

  

[josellama2000]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:20 PM, Tatetopa said:

I am not sure that lack of free will  requires predetermination.  The infinite universe can operate on a finite set of physical laws with an infinite number of choices along each particle interaction path determined by probability. . The universe may not be predetermined. I don't think it is.  Some people might decide that the mind of God has already resolved all of the probability interactions.  That is another opinion, but maybe not so useful for calculations.

My view that the universe is not predetermined does not give me certainty that humans have free will. 

Believe in Predetermination is more an act faith for us. We may never be able to predict all the future because it is not computable to use, as Roger Penrose claimed in his book "The mind of God".   But the laws of physics seems to indicate that it is actually predetermined, perhaps only hyper-minds/hyper-entities be able to see our history an unanimated hyper-dimensional object.

Edited June 3, 2021 by josellama2000

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:12 PM, Xeno-Fish said:

If you want to believe in a deterministic universe that's fine by me. Just don't complain when things don't go your way, cry when people die, or get angry with others for not seeing the world your way. Because it's all pre-determined, they had no choice, you have no choice, blah, blah, blah.

I'm not following your second part; what does determinism have to do with complaining and crying and other emotions?  Just because we have no choice it seems pretty clear that the choices we make are affected by our experiences; no choice doesn't mean random.  Why is grieving more logical in a non-deterministic universe than a deterministic one?