Are we all slaves to unconscious forces ?

[XenoFish]

13 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not following your second part; what does determinism have to do with complaining and crying and other emotions?  Just because we have no choice it seems pretty clear that the choices we make are affected by our experiences; no choice doesn't mean random.  Why is grieving more logical in a non-deterministic universe than a deterministic one?  

Might as well just say "God did it". 

[+Sherapy]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:12 AM, Alchopwn said:

This is an easy conclusion to make, given the time lapse between pre-thought impulse (PTI) to thought to action.  On the other hand, let us think again.  We simply don't know much for certain about what consciousness is.  We can tell when someone is awake, and even predict when someone will wake up from monitoring them with reasonable reliability, but we don't know what consciousness is.  Obviously every action we take must have some pre-thought impulse before we act, but what is the relationship of this to consciousness.  I mean, for example, here I am, typing letters on a keyboard.  In effect I am taking the abstract ideas of neurology and filtering them through my brain's language centers, and then abstracting them into characters by way of the tool of a computer keyboard which I am typing on at 45wpm.  In a Darwinian sense, what is the survival motivation for this that would correspond to an unconscious factor that promotes the survival of the species in what I am doing here?  This question is, I think, too "meta" for a simplistic reference to unconscious processes.  Human beings show a huge capacity to overcome their instinctual processes, and those instincts are the primary meaning and motivator of what the unconscious mind is all about in modern psychology.  We as psychologists and a species simply don't know what the pre-thought impulses are, and how they specifically relate to conscious thought and the conscious mind i.e. where they fall within the process of thinking.  To highlight this, please consider this example.  I sit down to type, and there is obviously PTI before I hit those keys in a complex sequence, and I will mistype a number of letters as I go, and then I will re-read what I have written and in the process I will parse it for typos, expression, and grammar.  The $64 question is, when I am already thinking, where does the PTI start and end when I am editing?  Are my higher functions incorporating my PTI, or subsuming it, or is the PTI governing the whole process unconsciously as I go about?  Where does one thought end and another thought begin?  Where does one PTI end and another PTI begin?

Indeed, there is so much we do not know about consciousness. Good post.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not following your second part; what does determinism have to do with complaining and crying and other emotions?  Just because we have no choice it seems pretty clear that the choices we make are affected by our experiences; no choice doesn't mean random.  Why is grieving more logical in a non-deterministic universe than a deterministic one?  

Great question.

[Mr Walker]

On 5/28/2021 at 6:13 AM, quiXilver said:

Choice is illusory.  That which drives our actions and thinking arises from beneath the threshold of conscious thinking.

Compulsions due to bio and socio conditioning are the realm of motivational impulse drivers.

The thinking mind labels, interprets and rationalizes the impulses and often creates a scenario/story around which we ascribe the interpretive mind with the awareness that drove the actions.

 

No that IS simply not true 

There really is no part of the human mind which is not potentially accessible,  understandable  and controllable  Ie you can learn how to know read understand  and control your subconscious mind just as you learn to to for your conscious mind

Most people never learn how to do this, but its not really hard 

Eg you can learn to not only control your dreams, but chose what dreams to construct and live in,  but that requires an interface between your conscious mind and your subconscious one, or to put it another way, remaining fully conscious while your mind is operating at the subconscious level/dreaming ,  and directing both the conscious and subconscious minds, through your conscious one  

[quiXilver]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

No that IS simply not true 

There really is no part of the human mind which is not potentially accessible,  understandable  and controllable  Ie you can learn how to know read understand  and control your subconscious mind just as you learn to to for your conscious mind

Most people never learn how to do this, but its not really hard 

Eg you can learn to not only control your dreams, but chose what dreams to construct and live in,  but that requires an interface between your conscious mind and your subconscious one, or to put it another way, remaining fully conscious while your mind is operating at the subconscious level/dreaming ,  and directing both the conscious and subconscious minds, through your conscious one  

Whatever gets you through your day mate...

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Whatever gets you through your day mate...

True, but dismissive.  

What i wrote is demonstrable fact, which you can experience for yourself .Not just some theory or assumption.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

12 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Whatever gets you through your day mate...

His delusions, you mean? 

[Mr Walker]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:03 AM, Nuclear Wessel said:

His delusions, you mean? 

Again, what I wrote is realty.

It is what a human mind is capable of, given time, training, discipline, and motivation.

if you don't believe it, you are selling yourself short and underestimating the abilty of a human mind.  

Humans have to be taught language, both of the mind  (controlled/directed  stream of consciousness) and in oral speech.

  If the y are not exposed to  (and thus learn by observation and mimicry, , or explicitly taught,  how to think and speak in sentences, complex and abstract thoughts, etc., they never will 

This abilty is similar.

Its inherent in any functioning human mind, but is never learned or used by most.  

Or perhaps I am wrong 

I have a enlarged prefrontal cortex 

I am always aware/lucid while dreaming, and  have been since early childhood.  I can always control /direct the narrative in any dream I have. 

I can also  often choose or construct any dream I desire, before going to sleep, and then enter it immediately on falling asleep

I assumed this was possible for any human, but i might be wrong.

Possibly, my enlarged frontal cortex gives me a biological advantage in this. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36190-w

The conclusion is particular interesting as it matches  other facets of my mind and nature  eg early language development and a high functionality with language, both spoken, and of the mind. 

 

. Specifically, non-lucid dreams exhibit reduced working memory function, reduced ability to engage in behavioral control and planning, and reduced reflective consciousness55,56,57. Thus, while dreams are rich in primary consciousness of perception and emotion, consciousness during dreams typically lacks important aspects of what Edelman referred to as secondary or higher-order consciousness, which enables a creature to escape the “remembered present” of primary consciousness and to be conscious of being conscious58,59. In contrast, gaining lucidity during dreaming sleep involves regaining cognitive abilities associated with higher-order consciousness, including the ability to be explicitly aware of oneself and one’s state55. The distinction between primary and higher-order consciousness is thought to depend on the linguistic abilities that separate humans from other species58. While language processes also occur during non-lucid dreams60,61, they are nevertheless linked to the remembered present and apparently lack the conceptual structure that allows for full self-awareness. We speculatively propose that the aPFC-AG-MTG network identified here may be part of the neural circuitry enabling the integration between heteromodal metacognitive and linguistic/conceptual systems (in particular, the availability of AG-MTG semantic/conceptual content to anterior prefrontal regions) that allows one to be aware of oneself and one’s

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mr Walker

[albie]

On 5/27/2021 at 4:44 PM, UM-Bot said:

We all make hundreds of decisions every day, but by how much are these influenced by unconscious factors ?

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/347247/are-we-all-slaves-to-unconscious-forces

the brain makes trillions of calculations every second. How many of them are we aware of? None. All we get is a feeling to do something. We get advised to have a  cheese sandwich rather than any other on the menu. The brain has quickly gone through many calculations to get to that point. The question is do we sometimes go against our feelings.

[josellama2000]

On 6/3/2021 at 7:15 PM, josellama2000 said:

Believe in Predetermination is more an act faith for us. We may never be able to predict all the future because it is not computable to use, as Roger Penrose claimed in his book "The mind of God".   But the laws of physics seems to indicate that it is actually predetermined, perhaps only hyper-minds/hyper-entities be able to see our history an unanimated hyper-dimensional object.

i meant Roger Penrose's book "The Emperor's New Mind"