Giza pyramids

[Hanslune]

10 minutes ago, Djedi said:

Did you actually read anything I wrote?  No proof, no reasonable evidence? I just showed two examples of queens that were still in their sarcophagi inside their pyramid! Mentioned remains of royal mummies still in the burial chamber... The tomb robber papyri describe the bodies of the king and queen inside their pyramid being looted by tomb robbers so it has been established they were once there...

Only two royal sarcophagi have been found sealed and empty, both from unfinished pyramids. One is from "the great pit" of Zawyet el-Aryan, an unfinished pyramid from the 4th dyn attributed to Sethka or Baka, a son of Djedefre. This empty sarcophagus was ritually sealed and buried in the floor after the building project was abandoned due to the premature dead of the king. The other more famous one of Sekhemkhet from his unfinished pyramid was probably left empty and sealed for the same reason. No empty sealed sarcophagus has ever been found in a completed pyramid. Two empty sealed sarcophagi from unfinished pyramids do not in any way suggest that all sarcophagi in pyramids were left deliberately empty. 

Additionally only two one Pharaoh's tomb was found unrobbed, not not Tut his was rifled twice before we opened in last century. The one winner was Psusennes I's tomb holds the distinction of being the only pharaonic grave ever found unscathed by any tomb robbing attempts. Unfortunately ground water destroyed the body.

 

His tomb is not well known as it was discovered after Tuts and also during WWII so the news didn't get much traction.

[cladking]

31 minutes ago, Djedi said:

Did you actually read anything I wrote?  No proof, no reasonable evidence? I just showed two examples of queens that were still in their sarcophagi inside their pyramid! Mentioned remains of royal mummies still in the burial chamber... The tomb robber papyri describe the bodies of the king and queen inside their pyramid being looted by tomb robbers so it has been established they were once there...

The papyrus to which you refer is from many centuries after the great pyramids were all built.  

There's little doubt that some or all of the tiny little imitation pyramids built in later centuries were intended as tombs.

[Djedi]

19 minutes ago, cladking said:

The papyrus to which you refer is from many centuries after the great pyramids were all built.  

There's little doubt that some or all of the tiny little imitation pyramids built in later centuries were intended as tombs.

Earl.Of.Trumps said "Is it not true that no King or Queen was ever found in a coffer in their respective chamber of any pyramid?" This is not about your (made up) classification of "great pyramids".

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

The papyrus to which you refer is from many centuries after the great pyramids were all built.  

There's little doubt that some or all of the tiny little imitation pyramids built in later centuries were intended as tombs.

What exactly were you suggesting these dead bodies were getting up to to invalidate this? In my experience, the dead tend to stay that way and tend not to move far from where they're interred.

--Jaylemurph

Edited June 7, 2021 by jaylemurph

[+DieChecker]

Isn't there Pyramid Texts that clearly state the follow on pyramids from Gina were tombs?

What else would the GP have been built for? Monument? Then why the rooms?

 

[ShadowSot]

46 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Isn't there Pyramid Texts that clearly state the follow on pyramids from Gina were tombs?

What else would the GP have been built for? Monument? Then why the rooms?

 

 There's also the whole tradition of tomb building leading up to the pyramids. 

 But I'm sure there's some reason to wave that away. 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, ShadowSot said:

 There's also the whole tradition of tomb building leading up to the pyramids. 

 But I'm sure there's some reason to wave that away. 

Its a process; X wants the great pyramids to be a "Thing", there is no real evidence for it being a "Thing" therefore the only way to convince themselves and others it is a "Things" is to attack what the evidence shows- it is most probably is a tomb or cenotaph, and never bringing up it being a "Thing". That is why you see constant dismissing it being a tomb instead of their saying it is Thing 1, 2 or 3. Best to ignore their attempt to dismiss the evidence and just ask them for the evidence for what they think it is. Saves time

[Thanos5150]

On 6/6/2021 at 2:47 PM, Kenemet said:

Actually, it apparently wasn't designed as a master plan.

"Apparently" according to who exactly? Regardless, if so it may not be as straightforward as each pyramid complex being built in succession of the pharaoh's they are attributed to either. 

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There are some short-reigning kings between Khufu-Khafre-Menkaure (Djedefre and Bikheris) who started pyramids that were never finished.  These men were crown princes who became pharaohs on the deaths of their successors. 

Recent evidence suggests Djedefre did complete his "pyramid" complex and Bikheris is virtually unattested as a historical figure with no legitimate link to having built Zawyet El Aryan. Pharaohs as a rule are crown princes that become the pharaohs upon their fathers death. 

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If this had been a master plan from the very start, we would have seen their half-finished pyramids right there next to Khufu's and Khafre's.

This is not true. Djedefre obviously did not know his reign or life would be as short as it was and ruled some 10-14yrs regardless so if things are as cut and dried as we are told there is no logical reason Djedefre would not have built at Giza supported even further by clear evidence he helped to finish the of the complex, namely a few of G1's boat pits. Ergo, it stands to reason he choose to instead build at Abu Roash which to him was a significant historical site and cemetery dating back to at least the 1st Dynasty including several monumental serekh mastabas. Shepseskaf, Menkaure's successor who also attempted to finish the G3 complex, choose to build a mastaba at Saqqara.   

[Thanos5150]

On 6/5/2021 at 2:21 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

We do have the first AE thread in a while, which is nice to see. 
Anybody wish to make an opinion on *why* the pyramids were built? I think it is controversial. I do not believe they were tombs for the kings and queens. My opinion.

If Pyramids not tombs where are the pharaohs?

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Djedi said:

Hi Harte,

That's actually the tomb of Nearit I mentioned above. Back in 2008 Zahi claimed (for no good reason) he found the tomb of queen Sesheshet the mother of Teti, but in january 2021 when the mortuary temple of this queen was excavated it turned out it belonged to a queen named Nearit.

For the article See here

 

As an aside, also built as a step pyramid:

Isn't it strange how often casing stones eerily similar to those at G1 that only the Lost Ones could make are found to have encased the inferior pyramids clearly built by the Dynastic Egyptians? A bit of a head scratcher. 

 

 

[docyabut2]

I know the Muslims torn down all the animals in the great pyramid .

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/in-egypt-rumor-of-pyramids-demise-proves-flimsy.html

[Hanslune]

2 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

As an aside, also built as a step pyramid:

Isn't it strange how often casing stones eerily similar to those at G1 that only the Lost Ones could make are found to have encased the inferior pyramids clearly built by the Dynastic Egyptians? A bit of a head scratcher. 

 

 

I've seen that explained by the fringe as their being having been taken from the Great pyramids or those 'missing' great pyramids ( Abu Roash?) and as luck would have it they perfectly fitted the smaller structures!

[docyabut2]

I do believe doc Hawass was right  it was lead to krufu`s mother`s tomb,and her treasures

Edited June 7, 2021 by docyabut2

[Harte]

Yeah, but WTF IS THIS THING?

And WTF is it doing in the middle of a graveyard anyway?

Looks like a power plant to me.

Harte

[Golden Duck]

16 minutes ago, Harte said:

Yeah, but WTF IS THIS THING?

And WTF is it doing in the middle of a graveyard anyway?

Looks like a power plant to me.

Harte

 

If you rake up the leaves in your yard, it's not Autumn any more.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

8 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Then show the evidence for where they were buried.

Hanslune, why should I ever do that? My failure to answer your irrelevant question proves nothing. They could be out in the desert
somewhere but because I know not where, that means they were stolen from the coffer...? I don't think so. Not at all.

I never proclaimed to have a theory on what happened to the Kings/Queens, I am only trying to say, neither do the experts.

[ShadowSot]

27 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

I never proclaimed to have a theory on what happened to the Kings/Queens, I am only trying to say, neither do the experts.

 Care to respond to the counters presented so far? Aside from Hanslune comment, there's been a few others. 

 We have the tomb building context the pyramids fit into. 

 The pyramid texts. 

 Bodies having been found in pyramids. 

By the same token, in other cultures with tombs we also find them emptied, Greek and Roman come to mind. 

 

[+DieChecker]

And almost all Celtic/British tombs were empty also. Guess they aren't really tombs??

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

I've seen that explained by the fringe as their being having been taken from the Great pyramids or those 'missing' great pyramids ( Abu Roash?) and as luck would have it they perfectly fitted the smaller structures!

Of course. Problem solved. 

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Djedi said:

Only two royal sarcophagi have been found sealed and empty, both from unfinished pyramids. One is from "the great pit" of Zawyet el-Aryan, an unfinished pyramid from the 4th dyn attributed to Sethka or Baka, a son of Djedefre. This empty sarcophagus was ritually sealed and buried in the floor after the building project was abandoned due to the premature dead of the king.

As we know, this is pure speculation not even agreed to by all the least of which if it was even a sarcophagus or not. As discussed before here:

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(Thanos): Abu Roash has its own dating problems, which Zawyet El Aryan must have been built around the same time, and both in some form are argued to predate the 4th Dynasty. I agree and as others, including some Egyptologists, do not believe either were pyramids. Regardless, the unusual "sarcophagi", also referred to as a "tank" or "vat", is thought by some Egyptologists to have been added after the fact made out of one of the foundation blocks which given the superstructure above it was never added, most likely there was never meant to be one, there is no reason to believe there was ever a burial there. Regarding the "sarcophagus", Barsanti did not think it was such but rather "a libation vessel whose lid served as an offering table".  The lid was plastered to the oval tank and when removed was empty except for a black sludge of sorts.

 

Quote

The other more famous one of Sekhemkhet from his unfinished pyramid was probably left empty and sealed for the same reason. No empty sealed sarcophagus has ever been found in a completed pyramid. Two empty sealed sarcophagi from unfinished pyramids do not in any way suggest that all sarcophagi in pyramids were left deliberately empty. 

As we should all well know by now, of course no one is suggesting these two empty sealed sarcophagi alone is the reason but rather that it is but one part of a greater whole as discussed at length before. 

 

[cladking]

8 hours ago, Djedi said:

Earl.Of.Trumps said "Is it not true that no King or Queen was ever found in a coffer in their respective chamber of any pyramid?" This is not about your (made up) classification of "great pyramids".

NO.  This is about the Giza pyramids and the little tiny pipsqueak mudpile pyramids that might have actually been tombs.  

When I said there's absolutely no direct evidence of any type that any pyramid was a tomb I was referring to great pyramids and not what Egyptologists euphimistically refer to as "pyramids".  

 

 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

9 hours ago, Djedi said:

Did you actually read anything I wrote?  No proof, no reasonable evidence? I just showed two examples of queens that were still in their sarcophagi inside their pyramid! Mentioned remains of royal mummies still in the burial chamber... The tomb robber papyri describe the bodies of the king and queen inside their pyramid being looted by tomb robbers so it has been established they were once there...

Only two royal sarcophagi have been found sealed and empty, both from unfinished pyramids. One is from "the great pit" of Zawyet el-Aryan, an unfinished pyramid from the 4th dyn attributed to Sethka or Baka, a son of Djedefre. This empty sarcophagus was ritually sealed and buried in the floor after the building project was abandoned due to the premature dead of the king. The other more famous one of Sekhemkhet from his unfinished pyramid was probably left empty and sealed for the same reason. No empty sealed sarcophagus has ever been found in a completed pyramid. Two empty sealed sarcophagi from unfinished pyramids do not in any way suggest that all sarcophagi in pyramids were left deliberately empty. 

Yes, I did read what you said. It started on a bad note. I asked a question, a pointed question, and here is how you answer:

@Djedi said: "A better question to start with would be: Is it not true that no King's or Queen's pyramid has ever been found unrobbed?"

So in other words, you ignore my question and try to get me to agree that your question is better. and why is that, so you can take your 
pre-made answer and begin to pummel me with it?

 Just say you don't want to answer and skip the dramatics.

[cladking]

7 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

What exactly were you suggesting these dead bodies were getting up to to invalidate this? In my experience, the dead tend to stay that way and tend not to move far from where they're interred.

Why would it necessarily follow that if tiny littler ruined ,mudpiles were tombs then the pyramids that were built before them must be tombs as well. 

If the tiny pyramids came first then you might argue that that is evidence pyramids were tombs but they didn't come first.  

[cladking]

Quote

Isn't there Pyramid Texts that clearly state the follow on pyramids from Gina were tombs?

NO!

Absolutely not.  The PT consistently says the pyramids were the dead kings and the dead kings' graves were in the sky.  

[cladking]

25 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

We have the tomb building context the pyramids fit into. 

No.   There is no "tomb building context".  

Tombs were mastabas.