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robin37

Giza pyramids

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jaylemurph
41 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

They were, IMO, afterlife generators. My (very ley) understanding of Egyptian theology is that your Afterlife depends on who remembers you in this life, even if that memory is a vague echo of a memory of their deeds. So anyone who built a pyramid? Gets remembered and gets a better Afterlife. The Pharaoh? Obviously deserves a good afterlife, and they get to build a good one that includes all their subjects. EVERYONE WINS! Yay!

I understand the highest accolade an early Egyptian could earn was the title of a “a /very/ good boy.”

At the ceremony where the award was bestowed, the priests would cry out to the audience in ritual supplication, “Who is a good boy?” The recipient would then ask, “Is it I? Am I a good boy?” And the priest would answer, “Thou art, o man, a good boy. A /very/ good boy.” And the people would rejoice and share a communal meal of ham.

That said, the ritual of the very good boi was markedly different. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/pyramid-air-shafts/

 

Hawass has suggested it was a blocked  by a another chamber that  lead to another tomb of his`s mother :)

Hawass’ mother is build in a pyramid?

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docyabut2
23 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Hawass’ mother is build in a pyramid?

no it was King Khufu,s mother :)

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Sir Wearer of Hats
29 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

no it was King Khufu,s mother :)

You should be more specific, the pronoun is internally self-referential when presented in a  isolated sentence. 

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DieChecker
On 6/4/2021 at 5:33 PM, Nobu said:

It’s not possible they were closed later in a really wet year?

I do believe the Great Pyramids were renovated several times by following dynasties. But like was said, it would be extremely hard to block them off mid shaft after fully constructed.

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Thanos5150
On 6/3/2021 at 2:16 PM, robin37 said:

The gash in the north face of Menkaure's pyramid was created by vandals searching for the pyramid's passages and chambers.

No. It was made by the Arabs in the 12th century in an attempt to destroy the pyramids. 

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Jon101
15 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/pyramid-air-shafts/

 

Hawass has suggested it was a blocked  by a another chamber that  lead to another tomb of his`s mother :)

I cannot find any such suggestion by Mr. Hawass in the article which your link egresses to.

Please could you show me where this is said?.

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robin37
4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

No. It was made by the Arabs in the 12th century in an attempt to destroy the pyramids. 

But the gash was certainly exploited by further apparently explorative tunneling. If the desire of the Arabs was to demolish the pyramids why did they not just topple the stones - were they also searching for inner chambers and passages in the manner of Al Mamun? Whoever it was called it a day when they hit the inner step pyramid.

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Kenemet
On 6/3/2021 at 3:40 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Why wouldn’t the layout of the complex be planned from the start and the design/build of the Individual pyramids be at the behest snd leadership of certain specific Pharoah? It makes sense, to take advantage of the landscape and (more importantly) other people’s hard work to create a better functioning afterlife generator (which in effect the Giza complex was). My street was planned and mostly built 30 odd years ago, but a house is being build this week on that street that follows that plan (ish, it’s a two story job and all others are one story, same design ethos though).

Actually, it apparently wasn't designed as a master plan.

There are some short-reigning kings between Khufu-Khafre-Menkaure (Djedefre and Bikheris) who started pyramids that were never finished.  These men were crown princes who became pharaohs on the deaths of their successors. 

If this had been a master plan from the very start, we would have seen their half-finished pyramids right there next to Khufu's and Khafre's.

So it couldn't have been "from the first."

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 6/5/2021 at 6:02 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

They were, IMO, afterlife generators. My (very ley) understanding of Egyptian theology is that your Afterlife depends on who remembers you in this life, even if that memory is a vague echo of a memory of their deeds. So anyone who built a pyramid? Gets remembered and gets a better Afterlife. The Pharaoh? Obviously deserves a good afterlife, and they get to build a good one that includes all their subjects. EVERYONE WINS! Yay!

Sounds pretty good but the evidences are stacked that the pyramids were not built as burial tombs for the Pharaoh. That's the controversy.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

There are some short-reigning kings between Khufu-Khafre-Menkaure (Djedefre and Bikheris) who started pyramids that were never finished

Thanks for that, Kenemet. Interesting. 

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Sounds pretty good but the evidences are stacked that the pyramids were not built as burial tombs for the Pharaoh. That's the controversy.

Are we talking about the actual amount of evidence gathered by scholars over centuries and the general consensus of trained, modern historians, or the evidence any one particular individual feels like accepting?

Because three people claiming something ridiculous isn't a controversy. It's just a form of hipsterism.

--Jaylemurph

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Nobu
On 6/5/2021 at 4:23 AM, Harte said:

Ahem.

They are blocked over 200 feet from the opening to the chambers:

1813200578_GreatPyramidqueennorthernshaftblocked.jpg.9f7d3e4c90ec25b9630398fd63dd28f5.jpg

Harte

I know you guys have done this here probably 1000000 times. But what are the two lines? Metal? Hand holds?

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Thanos5150
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, robin37 said:

But the gash was certainly exploited by further apparently explorative tunneling. If the desire of the Arabs was to demolish the pyramids why did they not just topple the stones - were they also searching for inner chambers and passages in the manner of Al Mamun? Whoever it was called it a day when they hit the inner step pyramid.

The forced tunnel was made in modern times started by Caviglia and finished by Vyse. Contemporary Arab accounts detail their efforts to destroy the pyramids with G3 being most prominent among them. The attempted demolition of the pyramids started more that 2 centuries after Al Mamun which at that time their efforts were motivated by religion, not treasure.    

Edited by Thanos5150

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Earl.Of.Trumps
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Are we talking about the actual amount of evidence gathered by scholars over centuries and the general consensus of trained, modern historians, or the evidence any one particular individual feels like accepting?

Because three people claiming something ridiculous isn't a controversy. It's just a form of hipsterism.

--Jaylemurph

I don't know, you tell me. Is it not true that no King or Queen was ever found in a coffer in their respective chamber of any pyramid?
Is it not also the case that coffers have been found that were sealed in antiquity, and when opened in our times, were found to be empty?

 

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Harte
8 hours ago, Nobu said:

I know you guys have done this here probably 1000000 times. But what are the two lines? Metal? Hand holds?

A u-shaped copper rod inserted from the other side.

Hypothesized by some to be for tying to - to slide the block into place.

Harte

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Djedi
8 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I don't know, you tell me. Is it not true that no King or Queen was ever found in a coffer in their respective chamber of any pyramid?

A better question to start with would be: Is it not true that no King's or Queen's pyramid has ever been found unrobbed?

Of course the answer is: Yes, all pyramids have been robbed before any modern investigation.

What were thieves looking for? Answer: Jewelry / gold

Where was the most precious jewelry to be found? Answer: On the bodies / mummies

What did the robbers do to get at the jewelry? Answer: cutting open the mummies, preferably outside the coffin in order not to miss anything. Burning the mummies was also practiced to get at the jewelry, this was of course more practical outside the tomb.

In some cases fragments of king's and queen's mummies have been found in their burial chamber outside the sarcophagus. Not all remains found inside pyramids have been carbon dated so the jury is still out on those.

I know of only two examples where the mummy of a queen was still in the sarcophagus. The body of Iput I, wife of Teti and mother of Pepi I was still in her coffin. By leaving her in her coffin the looters missed a golden bracelet on her right wrist. Remains of another queen of Teti (Nearit) were also still in the sarcophagus and here the robbers missed the golden finger sleeves.

The tomb robber papyri describe how thieves robbed the bodies of kings and queens of the 17the dyn, these were buried under small pyramids in Dra-Abu el Naga near Thebes.

In the light of the above is it still surprising that almost no remains of a king or queen were found inside their pyramid tombs let alone still in their sarcophagi?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

@Djedi, your above is hardly proof of anything. One should establish that there was a body before one imagines "the body was stolen". There is no reasonable evidence.

Remember, coffers sealed in antiquity were opened in modern times and shown to be empty. So that is actually good evidence that all coffers were deliberately left empty.

Just an opinion. I have no proof either, but it does set up a debatable matter.

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cladking
35 minutes ago, Djedi said:

A better question to start with would be: Is it not true that no King's or Queen's pyramid has ever been found unrobbed?

Of course the answer is: Yes, all pyramids have been robbed before any modern investigation.

What were thieves looking for? Answer: Jewelry / gold

Where was the most precious jewelry to be found? Answer: On the bodies / mummies

What did the robbers do to get at the jewelry? Answer: cutting open the mummies, preferably outside the coffin in order not to miss anything. Burning the mummies was also practiced to get at the jewelry, this was of course more practical outside the tomb.

In some cases fragments of king's and queen's mummies have been found in their burial chamber outside the sarcophagus. Not all remains found inside pyramids have been carbon dated so the jury is still out on those.

I know of only two examples where the mummy of a queen was still in the sarcophagus. The body of Iput I, wife of Teti and mother of Pepi I was still in her coffin. By leaving her in her coffin the looters missed a golden bracelet on her right wrist. Remains of another queen of Teti (Nearit) were also still in the sarcophagus and here the robbers missed the golden finger sleeves.

The tomb robber papyri describe how thieves robbed the bodies of kings and queens of the 17the dyn, these were buried under small pyramids in Dra-Abu el Naga near Thebes.

In the light of the above is it still surprising that almost no remains of a king or queen were found inside their pyramid tombs let alone still in their sarcophagi?

You're putting the cart before the horse and will end up in a ditch every time.

There is no textual or other direct evidence of any kind that any great pyramid was intended or used as a tomb for a king.  This fact doesn't really rule out the possibility that one or more might have been tombs but it certainly should give you pause if you believe they were tombs.  You should ask yourself why you believe they were tombs.  

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Earl.Of.Trumps
11 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Are we talking about the actual amount of evidence gathered by scholars over centuries and the general consensus of trained, modern historians, or the evidence any one particular individual feels like accepting?

Because three people claiming something ridiculous isn't a controversy. It's just a form of hipsterism.

--Jaylemurph

I do not care about *consensus*, I care about evidences. There are no evidences that show a body was present to begin with... or, show them. 

And that a baseless opinion is echoed by highly vaunted experts does not make it fact. So quote your experts, show me their evidence. Sorry if I am the doubting Thomas.

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Hanslune
1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I do not care about *consensus*, I care about evidences. There are no evidences that show a body was present to begin with... or, show them. 

And that a baseless opinion is echoed by highly vaunted experts does not make it fact. So quote your experts, show me their evidence. Sorry if I am the doubting Thomas.

Then show the evidence for where they were buried.

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Djedi
2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@Djedi, your above is hardly proof of anything. One should establish that there was a body before one imagines "the body was stolen". There is no reasonable evidence.

Remember, coffers sealed in antiquity were opened in modern times and shown to be empty. So that is actually good evidence that all coffers were deliberately left empty.

Just an opinion. I have no proof either, but it does set up a debatable matter.

:blink: Did you actually read anything I wrote?  No proof, no reasonable evidence? I just showed two examples of queens that were still in their sarcophagi inside their pyramid! Mentioned remains of royal mummies still in the burial chamber... The tomb robber papyri describe the bodies of the king and queen inside their pyramid being looted by tomb robbers so it has been established they were once there...

Only two royal sarcophagi have been found sealed and empty, both from unfinished pyramids. One is from "the great pit" of Zawyet el-Aryan, an unfinished pyramid from the 4th dyn attributed to Sethka or Baka, a son of Djedefre. This empty sarcophagus was ritually sealed and buried in the floor after the building project was abandoned due to the premature dead of the king. The other more famous one of Sekhemkhet from his unfinished pyramid was probably left empty and sealed for the same reason. No empty sealed sarcophagus has ever been found in a completed pyramid. Two empty sealed sarcophagi from unfinished pyramids do not in any way suggest that all sarcophagi in pyramids were left deliberately empty. 

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Harte
12 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I don't know, you tell me. Is it not true that no King or Queen was ever found in a coffer in their respective chamber of any pyramid?
Is it not also the case that coffers have been found that were sealed in antiquity, and when opened in our times, were found to be empty?

 

Yes, that is not true.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-tomb-of-queen-sesheshet-49733615/

Harte

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Djedi
2 minutes ago, Harte said:

Hi Harte,

That's actually the tomb of Nearit I mentioned above. Back in 2008 Zahi claimed (for no good reason) he found the tomb of queen Sesheshet the mother of Teti, but in january 2021 when the mortuary temple of this queen was excavated it turned out it belonged to a queen named Nearit.

For the article See here

 

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