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OverSword

Sam and Lex on UFO's

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OverSword

 

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SeekTruth

Great to see minds like these taking the issue seriously. 

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Tatetopa

Thanks. Its a good posting and a little discouraging.  "The need to tell ourselves an honest story about what is going on and what is likely to happen next,"  is gone. "Your stories are in calibration with what is actually going on in the world,"  would be  a great principle if we cared about that. 

Facts were replaced by subjective opinion  in all kinds of topics other than UAF's.   The ability to discern  one from the other is based on knowledge of a basic system of  how the world works.  We seem to be losing interest in that. 

 

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and then
44 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Thanks. Its a good posting and a little discouraging.  "The need to tell ourselves an honest story about what is going on and what is likely to happen next,"  is gone. "Your stories are in calibration with what is actually going on in the world,"  would be  a great principle if we cared about that. 

Facts were replaced by subjective opinion  in all kinds of topics other than UAF's.   The ability to discern  one from the other is based on knowledge of a basic system of  how the world works.  We seem to be losing interest in that. 

 

This topic is potentially tectonic in nature and if we ever see "full disclosure" there is the chance of global unrest, even chaos.  I don't believe we are being visited by alien entities from light-years away.  There are many reasons for this but I feel no need to get into that discussion.  What I am concerned about regarding disclosure is the reaction of people when they don't feel they can trust any kind of information disseminated by a government they disagree with.  I mean, imagine the signal to noise ratio on THAT topic.

I'll withold judgment on ET until I can stand in their presence.  ;) 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, and then said:

What I am concerned about regarding disclosure is the reaction of people when they don't feel they can trust any kind of information disseminated by a government they disagree with. 

Very true.  And that is where we find ourselves now and for the immediate future. Problematic because we make judgements on past prejudices rather than current facts.

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OverSword
12 hours ago, and then said:

This topic is potentially tectonic in nature and if we ever see "full disclosure" there is the chance of global unrest, even chaos.

I think we may have close to full disclosure now.  There are no doubt interactions that have never been made public but I kind of doubt that the governments of the world know for certain a lot more than interested civilians.

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bison

I like the emphasis, in the video, on the very high improbability of UAPs being Russian or Chinese hypersonic cruise missiles or drones. These objects give every impression of being real, solid flying machines, which is obviously why such a possibility was even entertained in the first place, 

They exhibit not 'cutting edge', or 'next-generation' capabilities, but something far, far beyond that. They move and accelerate in an extraordinary manner, and with no apparent thrust. They appear immune to the effects of extreme G forces that would shred any device we could devise. 

By the process of elimination, such technology would almost have to have an off-world origin. One wonders what sort of proof the military could reasonably want, for an extraterrestrial presence, beyond what they've already found.     

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Vaz
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, bison said:

I like the emphasis, in the video, on the very high improbability of UAPs being Russian or Chinese hypersonic cruise missiles or drones. These objects give every impression of being real, solid flying machines, which is obviously why such a possibility was even entertained in the first place, 

They exhibit not 'cutting edge', or 'next-generation' capabilities, but something far, far beyond that. They move and accelerate in an extraordinary manner, and with no apparent thrust. They appear immune to the effects of extreme G forces that would shred any device we could devise. 

By the process of elimination, such technology would almost have to have an off-world origin. One wonders what sort of proof the military could reasonably want, for an extraterrestrial presence, beyond what they've already found.     

Disappointing though that the message has not dawned before the relatively recent videos.

Russian USO's and UFO's

Edited by Vaz

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OverSword
15 hours ago, bison said:

One wonders what sort of proof the military could reasonably want, for an extraterrestrial presence, beyond what they've already found.  

The same as would be required to verify if Sasquatch exists. 

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Tatetopa
18 hours ago, bison said:

They exhibit not 'cutting edge', or 'next-generation' capabilities, but something far, far beyond that. They move and accelerate in an extraordinary manner, and with no apparent thrust. They appear immune to the effects of extreme G forces that would shred any device we could devise. 

By the process of elimination, such technology would almost have to have an off-world origin. One wonders what sort of proof the military could reasonably want, for an extraterrestrial presence, beyond what they've already found. 

A vehicle that is not required to carry life support for a pilot can be smaller, with a higher power to mass ratio and have much higher tolerance for high-g maneuvers.   

We might conclude that they are not likely to have a human pilot anyway.  If we have eliminated the Russians and Chinese, we still have Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk to consider.:tu:

The military could reasonably want a physical specimen.   Or maybe they get to see that physical specimen if they are part of the group that know where it is stored between test flights.

We have been developing stealth techniques over many years to confound radar and visual detection.  Perhaps someone is working on additional IR and radar stealth that is capable of active deception, projecting a false image on radar and Infrared that looks and moves like a tic-tac. 

Any military that can deceive targeting mechanisms has a very big advantage over its adversaries.  They might not broadcast the fact.  They might even test it secretly against the known capability of their own aircraft and pilots.  An unwitting pilot giving his best effort to pursue and target an unknown threat would make for a pretty good test.

 

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bison

Extraordinary G forces  appear to be involved in the movements of these objects. These forces would be far more than  sufficient to destroy the structures of even the sturdiest flying machines, unmanned missiles.

What we understand about the overall technological  prowess of China and Russia in comparison to that of the United States, does not seem to support the possibility of the elaborate 'spoofing' capability suggested, by either of these nations.  The involvement of the Office of National Intelligence in the analysis of these UAP reports would probably have revealed the existence of any highly improbable 'breakthrough' technologies, by  any foreign power.

If some super-secret faction within the U.S. military were responsible for these reports, the natural desire would be to withhold this information. The Pentagon need not have confirmed the genuineness of the much-discussed Navy videos, which had already been 'leaked' several years ago.  It was this official confirmation of their legitimacy which seems to have brought things to a head.

There appears to be a faction within the Pentagon, which favors a certain degree of openness about UAP reports. This does not seem to conform to a situation where strategic secrecy is desired. If the intent were to  conceal what would be a frankly astonishing technological leap, on the part of the United States, why admit anything bearing on this, in any way?

The Navy pilots who have been speaking out about their UAP experiences have remarked that these matters are unclassified. They have broken no oaths, disobeyed no orders, in speaking out. Shouldn't they have been restricted by such oaths and orders?  That is -- if their superiors had, as one might reasonably expect, been briefed by some super-science unit within the military. They would then act to conceal the existence of air vehicles with such extraordinary capabilities. would they not?      

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Trelane

The capabilities of Russia and China had been underestimated up until about 10 years or so ago. The US intelligence community has been keenly aware of what they have and are working on. They are closing the gap in many areas and some might argue are now on equal footing in others.

So we're almost halfway through June. I'm still waiting for this earth shattering disclosure that was promised for this month. I do enjoy the explosion of UFO related speculations over the last month or so. Keeps the prying eyes away from what is being developed for Space Force.

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Tatetopa
58 minutes ago, bison said:

The Navy pilots who have been speaking out about their UAP experiences have remarked that these matters are unclassified. They have broken no oaths, disobeyed no orders, in speaking out. Shouldn't they have been restricted by such oaths and orders?  That is -- if their superiors had, as one might reasonably expect, been briefed by some super-science unit within the military. They would then act to conceal the existence of air vehicles with such extraordinary capabilities. would they not?     

Lots to think about in your very logical post.  Overall, I tend to agree with you, but I am looking for loopholes. 

In that spirit, my counter is that this super-secret unit knows the limitations of secrecy within any human organization.  They can't run their tests on informed subjects so they choose not to brief anybody.  They know there will be some leaks and they also know our rivals are trying to eavesdrop on our operations with some degree of success.  It would be best if nobody in the exercise  is in the know. so there are no slip ups.

  In fact they find the UAP controversy a useful distraction and cover story.  It keep our own forces just a little bit sharper with that unknown out there to contend with and keeps our rivals guessing.

Any nation including the US that had the capability of intercepting  EM radiation and projecting it to another location accurately enough to fool human vision and targeting radar would keep it secret as long as possible.

At the moment that seem as likely to me as alien visitors.

On the other hand, and this is just an assumption too, any civilization with a technology and understanding of the physical universe sophisticated enough to send a craft to another planet may also have a good understanding of spoofing. and capability to keep their craft invisible to our level of technology.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Trelane said:

The capabilities of Russia and China had been underestimated up until about 10 years or so ago. The US intelligence community has been keenly aware of what they have and are working on. They are closing the gap in many areas and some might argue are now on equal footing in others.

In the early 2000's the company I worked for was  under contract with the Air Force to develop casting technology for Titanium-Aluminide alloys, which had been around for a decade or so. . The project was not classified, but our manufacturing process could be  patented so we kept it confidential

I went to a conference with our people, some Air Force representatives and a moderator from Wright Patterson.   During lunch he talked about the Russians and Glasnost.  There are a dozen or so possible Ti-Aluminides but only 3 or 4 that have really useful properties.  Turns out the Russians were working on the same 3 alloys Wright Patterson was developing.  When asked how that could be, the Russian scientists said it was simple.  "We read the papers your metallurgists published on Ti-Aluminides.  . You never published results on 3 highly likely alloys, therefore we knew   those were the right three to keep investigating."

Sometimes what you don't say carries valuable information too.

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bison
Posted (edited)

It's well to bear in mind that UAPs/ UFOs with flight characteristics  similar to those reported recently by Navy pilots  are known from at least as far back as 1944.  Among these flight characteristics  are sharp turns that seem to involve the canceling out of inertia, and extreme rates of climb. Also noted were their tendency to mimic the maneuvers of our aircraft, at close range, and their capacity to elude too close or prolonged scrutiny, by their very rapid departure.

It's very unlikely, of course, that a technology existed on Earth, at that time, to allow the projection of electromagnetic energy in such a way as to create the illusion of a solid object nearby. In any case, most of the reports from this period were visual rather than  by radar or in the infrared. Such objects were seen by both Allied and Axis Powers during World War II, both in Europe and in the Orient. Each side ascribed these to the other.

One can not, naturally, prove a negative. As in -- Prove that either the United States. or some foreign power is not, through some astounding and unanticipated technical development, the cause of the reputedly unexplainable UAP reports. Further, one can not prove that this technology has not been in existence for well over 70 years.

Given the above considerations, though, I strongly suspect that extraterrestrial intelligence is the far more probable explanation.  

Edited by bison
improved exposition

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SeekTruth
3 minutes ago, bison said:

It's well to bear in mind that UAPs/ UFOs with flight characteristics  similar to those reported recently by Navy pilots  are known from at least as far back as 1944.  Among these flight characteristics  are sharp turns that seem to involve the canceling out of inertia, and extreme rates of climb. Also noted were their tendency to mimic the maneuvers of our aircraft, at close range, and their capacity to elude too close or prolonged scrutiny, by their very rapid departure.

It's very unlikely, of course, that a technology existed on Earth, at that time, to allow the projection of electromagnetic energy in such a way as to create the illusion of a solid object nearby. In any case, most of the reports from this period were visual rather than  by radar or in the infrared. Such objects were seen by both Allied and Axis Powers during World War II, both in Europe and in the Orient. Each side ascribed these to the other.

One can not, naturally, prove a negative. As in -- Prove that either the United States. or some foreign power is not, through some astounding and unanticipated technical development, the cause of the reputedly unexplainable UAP reports. Further, one can not prove that this technology has not been in existence for well over 70 years.

Given the above considerations, though, I strongly suspect that extraterrestrial intelligence is the more probable explanation.  

My thinking exactly. Well said; I'm enjoying your posts in this thread. Good food for thought.

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Trelane
6 minutes ago, bison said:

It's well to bear in mind that UAPs/ UFOs with flight characteristics  similar to those reported recently by Navy pilots  are known from at least as far back as 1944.  Among these flight characteristics  are sharp turns that seem to involve the canceling out of inertia, and extreme rates of climb. Also noted were their tendency to mimic the maneuvers of our aircraft, at close range, and their capacity to elude too close or prolonged scrutiny, by their very rapid departure.

It's very unlikely, of course, that a technology existed on Earth, at that time, to allow the projection of electromagnetic energy in such a way as to create the illusion of a solid object nearby. In any case, most of the reports from this period were visual rather than  by radar or in the infrared. Such objects were seen by both Allied and Axis Powers during World War II, both in Europe and in the Orient. Each side ascribed these to the other.

One can not, naturally, prove a negative. As in -- Prove that either the United States. or some foreign power is not, through some astounding and unanticipated technical development, the cause of the reputedly unexplainable UAP reports. Further, one can not prove that this technology has not been in existence for well over 70 years.

Given the above considerations, though, I strongly suspect that extraterrestrial intelligence is the far more probable explanation.  

Fair points but I personally think that many of the reports from the early to mid 20th century had embellishments and speculations affixing technology as a characteristic as a means to describe what they did not understand what they were observing. A combination of natural phenomenon and embellishments of items observed are what I think are the most logical ways to answer many of those decades old reports.

With the utter lack of any signs of life in our galactic neighborhood, I'm inclined to disregard the ET theories.

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Raptor Witness
On 6/10/2021 at 9:56 PM, and then said:

This topic is potentially tectonic in nature and if we ever see "full disclosure" there is the chance of global unrest, even chaos.

And a plague, against your lying masters, definitively relayed on these boards by both nature and origin, is not “tectonic” in nature?

Lies are the problem, not the “Days of Noah, revisited.”

Quote

 

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Manwon Lender
On 6/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, OverSword said:

 

The thing I can't get past when considering this situation is the disclosures of the Videos, and the Pentagon saying that the Videos are actually leaked footage of actual occurances. Normally in the past there would be no disclosure in fact, the Videos would have been identified as fakes. Then you have a number of US Military Pilots giving interviews on National TV, which also in the past would have been treated as a breech of National Secuirty. Instead its like the release of the Videos and the Pilot testimony is being done intentionally. However, the question is why does the Government want these disclosures to take place and what has prompted it to occur now?

I am certain this is leading up to something, and I am certain it will become clear in the next few months. If these objects are man made which Government is responsible for there creation. If they are not man made, this is actually worst, because then where are they coming from and why. In either case this is going to be shock for the worlds people and how they react can be very dangerous, so maybe this disclosures are design to soften the reaction when the release actually occurrs.

JIMO

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, bison said:

Extraordinary G forces  appear to be involved in the movements of these objects. These forces would be far more than  sufficient to destroy the structures of even the sturdiest flying machines, unmanned missiles.

What we understand about the overall technological  prowess of China and Russia in comparison to that of the United States, does not seem to support the possibility of the elaborate 'spoofing' capability suggested, by either of these nations.  The involvement of the Office of National Intelligence in the analysis of these UAP reports would probably have revealed the existence of any highly improbable 'breakthrough' technologies, by  any foreign power.

If some super-secret faction within the U.S. military were responsible for these reports, the natural desire would be to withhold this information. The Pentagon need not have confirmed the genuineness of the much-discussed Navy videos, which had already been 'leaked' several years ago.  It was this official confirmation of their legitimacy which seems to have brought things to a head.

There appears to be a faction within the Pentagon, which favors a certain degree of openness about UAP reports. This does not seem to conform to a situation where strategic secrecy is desired. If the intent were to  conceal what would be a frankly astonishing technological leap, on the part of the United States, why admit anything bearing on this, in any way?

The Navy pilots who have been speaking out about their UAP experiences have remarked that these matters are unclassified. They have broken no oaths, disobeyed no orders, in speaking out. Shouldn't they have been restricted by such oaths and orders?  That is -- if their superiors had, as one might reasonably expect, been briefed by some super-science unit within the military. They would then act to conceal the existence of air vehicles with such extraordinary capabilities. would they not?      

I started a thread about the UAP / UFOs seen over Germany by US Bomber Crews starting in 1944 and continuing through the end of WWII. Below is a link to the Thread.

 

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OverSword

Here is another discussion from Lex Fridman's podcast this time with Stephan Wolfram.  Perhaps ET has a completely different understanding of physics than we do.

The full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1_ffaFXao

 

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ChrLzs
On 6/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Trelane said:

With the utter lack of any signs of life in our galactic neighborhood, I'm inclined to disregard the ET theories.

Same.  Still waiting for anyone, anyone at all, to present decent evidence of these claimed extraordinary maneuvers or g-forces.  NONE of the videos show any such thing, and yet that is the basic claim underpinning the speculations.  There is NO, I repeat NO hard evidence, just tall tales.  I see, over and over, these handwaves about radar data.  SHOW it, and let's look at the calculations and assumptions..  As far as I can see, these claims are based upon individual and very possibly unrelated radar returns.

Anecdotes count for ****.  I'll be delighted to see the hard evidence, but the DoD has already admitted they have none, just the stories.  I'll be delighted to apologise for being a party pooper, but I don't see much sign of that happening.  Consider it a challenge, true believers...  Show us the data and the maths.

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