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Likely Guy

Can Israelis and Palestinians See Eye to Eye?

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Likely Guy
Posted (edited)

This debate is two and a half years old but still relevant.

If you have the time to watch, any thoughts?

 

Edited by Likely Guy
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and then

Short answer is no.  I think the better question is what is the fundamental barrier between them.  IMO, the issue is inescapably tied to religious differences and the hate associated with it.  The Arab Muslims of the M.E. cannot accept an independent Jewish state of equal stature in their midst, without offending their deeply held beliefs.  

There are several here who will see that as an attack on Islam but in reality it is nothing more than a basic reading of their text.  Add to that the venom from Hamas and the PA both in their school curriculum and in their Friday rants and it becomes crystal clear why they will never peacefully share the land.  The truth is that on several occasions the Jews of Israel have agreed to accept two states living side by side, even when the early proposals were for a MUCH more limited territory for Israel.

Syria, Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians ALL refused to countenance a Jewish state of ANY SIZE.  This is not debatable, it is historical fact.  The disturbing truth is that this flashpoint is going to eventually lead to global war on a scale humanity today cannot even imagine in their darkest nightmares.  The path is set and we are seeing the old hate gaining new acceptance in Europe and the U.S.  Those whose goal is to separate Israel from their U.S. support are going to eventually succeed and a coalition of forces will come against Israel.  Israel will be defeated and occupied with great loss of life.

But their enemies will not be able to completely remove them from that land, ever again.   I think this example of an ancient hatred is an analog, a macrocosm of humanity's struggle with its darker half and it doesn't end well for at least 2/3 of the population of the planet.  All of that loss and cost and misery will be suffered for the "victory" of defeating and crushing the Jewish homeland and state.  And even then the victory of their enemies will last fewer than 7 years.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Likely Guy said:

This debate is two and a half years old but still relevant.

If you have the time to watch, any thoughts?

 

They'd do see eye to eye, the Israelis look into the prison cells, and stare eye to eye at the Palestinians that are under arrest!!:yes:

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wuking

Not while they put "religion" first and "people" in second.

No wonder religion is the root of evil.

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4 minutes ago, wuking said:

Not while they put "religion" first and "people" in second.

No wonder religion is the root of evil.

Israel is overwhelmingly secular and the Palestinian government is Islamic.  Religion has certainly led to a lot of bloodshed but it pales in comparison to the Abattoir that marxist/communist regimes have created all over the planet.

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South Alabam

If Israel would follow the Torah, then they would get along with them.

 

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50 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

If Israel would follow the Torah, then they would get along with them.

 

First of all, Israel is a secular nation with a solid and growing majority of non-believers.  WWII taught them to be pragmatic I guess.  Nevertheless, peaceful coexistence isn't in the power of one group.  BOTH have to want peace.  If you'd like to cite an example of Palestinians offering terms that don't require Israel to be assimilated into an Arab Muslim nation then I'll be interested to read it.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 6/12/2021 at 5:15 PM, South Alabam said:

If Israel would follow the Torah, then they would get along with them.

 

If Israel would follow the ten commandments, there'd be no problem. (Thou shalt not kill; Thou shalt not steal)

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I'm not seeing it. Not  in my lifetime. 

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Tatetopa
On 6/11/2021 at 8:01 PM, and then said:

Short answer is no.  I think the better question is what is the fundamental barrier between them.  IMO, the issue is inescapably tied to religious differences and the hate associated with it.  The Arab Muslims of the M.E. cannot accept an independent Jewish state of equal stature in their midst, without offending their deeply held beliefs.  

On this I wonder.  For a long period of history, and one might argue at least until after WWII, Jews were treated better in Arab countries than Christian ones.  Didn't Christians despise Jews historically because they crucified Jesus? 

I won't deny the radical and  destructive politics of Hamas, PLO, ISIS, and other organizations.  Is it religious or political?  

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Buzz_Light_Year
Posted (edited)
On 6/12/2021 at 4:15 PM, South Alabam said:

If Israel would follow the Torah, then they would get along with them.

 

If Muslims would follow the Quran then they'd know that the Holy Land was promised to the Jews according to Allah.

https://www.** Blocked **/11680/quran-jerusalem-jews

The author of the article is a Muslim.

And Gatestone institute is blocked why?

Edited by Buzz_Light_Year

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Likely Guy
Posted (edited)

The other day I watched a social experiment of two boys. One clad in Islamic cap and garb, the other in Hassidic clothes, both about ten years old, They went to a Muslim community first then to a Jewish community in NY.

The acceptance they got in both communities was heartwarming.

This might be it:

 

Edited by Likely Guy

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Likely Guy

Another:

 

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

If Israel would follow the ten commandments, there'd be no problem. (Thou shalt not kill; Thou shalt not steal)

See post #8.

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and then
12 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Another:

 

These kinds of feel-good pieces appeal to rational, average human beings.  There are NONE of them at upper levels of government in most countries and ESPECIALLY in the Levant.  But by all means, have some warm fuzzies and then follow up with a rousing course of Kumbaya.  Government leaders tend to be selfish, heartless, cruel, and fully willing to use violence to maintain or attain power.  

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Likely Guy
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, and then said:

These kinds of feel-good pieces appeal to rational, average human beings.  There are NONE of them at upper levels of government in most countries and ESPECIALLY in the Levant.  But by all means, have some warm fuzzies and then follow up with a rousing course of Kumbaya.  Government leaders tend to be selfish, heartless, cruel, and fully willing to use violence to maintain or attain power.  

Your lack of good feeling is duly noted.

Edit: What? Life is **** and we'll all die?

Edited by Likely Guy
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Hammerclaw

If the Zionists and Palestinians could reason with one-another, they wouldn't be at odds. The Zionists want a State where they will never be a persecuted minority, ever again. The Palestinians want the land back their ancestors lived on for hundreds of years. Unfortunately, most of that land is called Israel, now. Ironically, they do, indeed, want the same thing, but without the other on it. There is blood between them and honor demands a blood price. Palestinians will murder their own children for the sake of honor, as they have done, even here in the States. The Zionists and Palestinians have been in conflict with one-another for 150 years. I don't see a quick resolution of the on going conflict, based on that history, any time soon.

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Sir Smoke aLot
On 6/12/2021 at 4:13 AM, Likely Guy said:

This debate is two and a half years old but still relevant.

If you have the time to watch, any thoughts?

 

Familiar with many similar opinions. Generally, to the title - many of them do.

I hope that, with time, it will be enough for peace and to stop military rule over large civilian population. Such mass subjegation has no place in civilized world.

That is best starting point, to distance yourself from violence and repression, to act against it in any way possible like when brave Jewish, Israeli girls and boys do when they say "no, I dont want to join army" and hug their Palestinian neighbors.

But Israeli government and leaders know that they are still strong enough and backed up enough to do as they please. That's why we see them speed up building of illegal infrastructure, demolitions of antic villages, modern homes owned by non Jews and even make official plans to annex rest of Palestine, contrary to opinion of worlds nations and of every legal system in power. This is still enabled by the likes of US and EU.

Injustice, to say the least, injustice felt by Palestinian people on daily basis seems to directly impact the decline in the perception of the rule of law and civilized order - which many believe they live in. But in reality it's one large box of hypocritical madness filled with absurdities and contradictions and future looks bad from this perspective. 

It's unfortunate, but those who do see tru each others eyes have no power over mad horde. They got no power over evil, and war is evil. It takes not many, but few people to start a war and even less to keep it going.

Palestinian youth has every reason to hate Israel, many of them because they were in jail for years while they were still teens or younger. Many because they are all that's left of their family name... And many because they haven't lived even one day as free citizens but instead as convicts denied access to the world.

This has it's price, and Israel is paying big dividends. People in Israel by now also feel they have been mistreated, by Arabs, and Israelis are frightened to the point of being violent because they feel threatened and they have to thank Political Zionism ideology for that. But statistics tell different story. Logic too. Disproportionate power between the two but also disproportionate fear level - which is another absurdity as cat doesn't fear the mice, but someone told the cat that mice has nuke in its pocket. When some attack happens, and those do happen - the fear campaign gets wings.

And it all comes and goes, one large circle of brutality and trying to stay human, brought to the world by it's most holy place... While in the essence it's simple case which was made intricate by decades of political tricks.

Sorry for longer post but there can't be optimism in Israel and Palestine relation, at least not until all will be judged for what they do, by facts and by one stronger than both but unrelated to any.

However history will, at end, remember Eran Efrati and Ahed Tamimi while Netanyahu and Zionist criminals and some Palestinian criminals wont be remembered that's only thing certain. When Israeli starts to speak loud about injustice done to Palestinians and Palestinians do the same for crying Israeli mothers, that brings future. Only that will make politics irrelevant.

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South Alabam
On 6/12/2021 at 4:15 PM, South Alabam said:

If Israel would follow the Torah, then they would get along with them.

 

Deuteronomy 31:29  For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. 

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever. 

Matthew 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 
Matthew 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
Matthew 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Matthew 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 
Matthew 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Isaiah 9:16  For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed

Isaiah 3:25  Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 
 

 

Andthen? When is the last time you've seen Israel treat the Palestinians (their neighbor) like themselves? 2nd Commandment according to Jesus. See above.

Do you not see, God chose Israel not because they were perfect, but because without him, they would all be destroyed by their enemies. 

 

 

 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 6/13/2021 at 7:44 PM, Tatetopa said:

On this I wonder.  For a long period of history, and one might argue at least until after WWII, Jews were treated better in Arab countries than Christian ones.  Didn't Christians despise Jews historically because they crucified Jesus? 

I won't deny the radical and  destructive politics of Hamas, PLO, ISIS, and other organizations.  Is it religious or political?  

It is confusing, Tat, I agree. Was violence between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants religious or political? See what I mean? It's a meld of things.
Personally, I think it is wrapped up in religion because it was people of the Muslim faith that were attacked by racist Jews because of their religion and because
Jews wanted a Jewish homeland, kinda like ISIS wants a Muslim only Levant. And the boldest politicians in Palestine and other countries were molded in that fashion,
religionists defending people of the Muslim faith.  

Iran is a big example of this. They had a revolution in 1979 and the religionists (Mullahs) went right to the head of the class because they were the most politically energized
people in the country, despite not being a majority. (You'd have to know the particulars as to why Iranian Islamists felt under attack [they were])

As I understand it right now, there are countries in the ME that will not sell land to Jews. People universally are not happy with these nasty Israelis. 

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aztek
13 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

It is confusing, Tat, I agree. Was violence between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants religious or political? See what I mean? It's a meld of things.
Personally, I think it is wrapped up in religion because it was people of the Muslim faith that were attacked by racist Jews because of their religion and because
Jews wanted a Jewish homeland, kinda like ISIS wants a Muslim only Levant. And the boldest politicians in Palestine and other countries were molded in that fashion,
religionists defending people of the Muslim faith.  

Iran is a big example of this. They had a revolution in 1979 and the religionists (Mullahs) went right to the head of the class because they were the most politically energized
people in the country, despite not being a majority. (You'd have to know the particulars as to why Iranian Islamists felt under attack [they were])

As I understand it right now, there are countries in the ME that will not sell land to Jews. People universally are not happy with these nasty Israelis. 

not even close to be compatible,  jews want their  homeland and have nothing against arabs living there, as long as they do not try to kill jews,  there are arabs in israel gvmnt right now, 

Muslims, like isis, and Palestinians want jews dead, period.

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and then
On 6/13/2021 at 6:44 PM, Tatetopa said:

On this I wonder.  For a long period of history, and one might argue at least until after WWII, Jews were treated better in Arab countries than Christian ones.  Didn't Christians despise Jews historically because they crucified Jesus? 

I won't deny the radical and  destructive politics of Hamas, PLO, ISIS, and other organizations.  Is it religious or political?  

Historically, Christians killed and tortured FAR MORE Jews than did Muslims.  FAR MORE and far longer.  That's the reason many if not most Jews abhor Christians.  But this thread is about Palestinians, very few of which are Christians.  The leadership of the Hamas, PA, and Hizballah are fomenting and perpetuating Jew hatred as a matter of "political" survival.  They make merchandise of the ancient hatred that comes from Islam toward Jews.  The periods when Jews were not being regularly killed were prior to the Zionist movement and the creation of an independent, strong Jewish state. 

Once Jews were no longer suffering Dhimmitude, all hell broke loose.  Islam again, you see.  A Jew who is subservient and knows their place is a Jew that is in a "protected class".  Were you aware that Dhimmis not only had to pay burdensome taxes every year but that they had to show themselves to be publicly humiliated while doing so?  Spitting on them, slapping them, and pulling their beard - if they were allowed to grow one - was all a part of their Dhimmitude.  Nice, huh?  Does that attitude - which comes directly from the Qur'an - seem like it would be conducive to peaceful relations among equals?  

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Cookie Monster
On 6/12/2021 at 3:13 AM, Likely Guy said:

This debate is two and a half years old but still relevant.

If you have the time to watch, any thoughts?

 

It really wasn`t the best idea after WW2 ended giving one group of people who had no home, someone else`s home.

And that pretty much sums up what the conflict there has been ever since. The only solution is an Israeli-Palestinian union.

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