The evolutionary place and function of spiritual and religious belief

[Crazy Horse]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You think about this, I think about this, and using our brains for thinking about things like this is nothing but a waste of time and energy.

It won't get us anywhere. Why? Because we are using thought to battle thinking.

That's what the little guy said.

And it is something we all love to think about, and by doing that we won't get anything further.

 

 

 

Ultimately speaking you are correct.

"Be still and know, I Am GOD". Was alluding to your point.

To silence the mind, and to feel the presence of GOD, is the only actual way to know the Ultimate Truth that is beyond words in any-case.

One cannot serve two masters, the ego and the soul.

Yet I would add that our thoughts, those of our higher mind, shall lead one to the Gates of Heaven where one must be present, still, and silent to explore, and to abide.

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sherapy cant help herself when it comes to me   I have no need to justify myself  but the facts  are.

I bought the iron from  an ex student   a t clearing sale after his parent's death.

He wanted 30 dollars for 30 sheets in 2015 and i paid him. It sat in my shed for 6 years (I was going to use it to re-roof my shed  but never did)

I advertised it a t price which seemed reasonable and had half a dozen immediate offers,  The current price for new iron was about twice what Iwas asking and this, being older, was also a heavier gauge.

The young bloke who bought it was building a holiday/beach home and wanted reasonable quality iron.   

Price gouging is a deliberately pejorative  term,  meant to criticise 

Today many peole are money rich and time poor, and happy to pay  a fair price.

It is not really relevant what i paid if the buyers see the price as fair in current terms

I have 4 bird prints by a well known artist that i bought at a garage   sale for 20 dollars total 

Internet valuations are around $60 each 

I am going to sell them for   150 dollars the lot or $40 each,  and told the person who sold me them  to me this.

They were happy with their 20 dollars  cash in hand 

 I  have also sold   things a t a loss, like a queen size bed and ensemble which cost $2000 and was sold for 200 dollars cash  and 200 dollars in labour.

  I sold a couple of hundred dollars  worth of shell books to a person really keen to get them,  We worked out a price about half of the internet price for the lot  I probably bought them all for less than $50, 15 years ago from second hand book shops   when my wife and i were collecting a lot of shells .

Hi Walker

I was trying to be supportive in that you did not charge retail

[+Sherapy]

37 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

I was trying to be supportive in that you did not charge retail

My point is that there is a bit of a materialist in us all, including MW. 

 

He overgeneralized everyone else is a materialist, but him. A 900% mark up is quite high  Yet, I do not begrudge the man trying to make ends meet. 
 

I hope his wife gets a new hip and more caregiving hours as a result too.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sherapy

[jmccr8]

34 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

My point is that there is a bit of a materialist in us all, including MW. 

 

He overgeneralized everyone else is a materialist, but him. A 900% mark up is quite high  Yet, I do not begrudge the man trying to make ends meet. 
 

I hope his wife gets a new hip and more caregiving hours as a result too.

Hi Sherapy

Yes of course I understood what you were saying and have no problem with it. I did do a job for a fellow who offered and paid a hefty fee for services and I took his money 6 hours after starting and no I did not feel bad about it.

He had a dozen different contractors prior to meeting me and none of them were able to do the job for some reason. It was the hoppers for a cindercrete plant and it was all heavy steel structure and when I dropped that puppy there was an audience of over 30 people who worked for the company that came to watch and even applauded after the dust settled.

It worked out that I made a little less than $3000.00 an hour and believe me I made had no reservations about taking that money.

[Grim Reaper 6]

13 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet my opinion is based upon reason, assuming one is "Spiritual".

The Ground of Being, The Absolute, The ALL, GOD, whatever you want to call THAT, is the ground from which all particular phenomenon arise. 

That movement of GODs will is called Spirit by some, and no doubt something else by others.

In any event, the world and everything in it, came after GOD, and GODs will.

If you can reason a different point of view then please do, I would be very interested to hear it!

 

Good luck trying to force your beliefs ( opinion ) upon others it will only make others reject your comments, again there are no absolutes.

[Grim Reaper 6]

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet my opinion is based upon reason, assuming one is "Spiritual".

The Ground of Being, The Absolute, The ALL, GOD, whatever you want to call THAT, is the ground from which all particular phenomenon arise. 

That movement of GODs will is called Spirit by some, and no doubt something else by others.

In any event, the world and everything in it, came after GOD, and GODs will.

If you can reason a different point of view then please do, I would be very interested to hear it!

 

What form of Christian Spiritual beliefs do you follow?

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Sherapy

Yes of course I understood what you were saying and have no problem with it. I did do a job for a fellow who offered and paid a hefty fee for services and I took his money 6 hours after starting and no I did not feel bad about it.

He had a dozen different contractors prior to meeting me and none of them were able to do the job for some reason. It was the hoppers for a cindercrete plant and it was all heavy steel structure and when I dropped that puppy there was an audience of over 30 people who worked for the company that came to watch and even applauded after the dust settled.

It worked out that I made a little less than $3000.00 an hour and believe me I made had no reservations about taking that money.

Great story, Jay.

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

I was trying to be supportive in that you did not charge retail

Yes i appreciated your support

Mine was a general response to sherapy's criticism 

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Sherapy said:

My point is that there is a bit of a materialist in us all, including MW. 

 

He overgeneralized everyone else is a materialist, but him. A 900% mark up is quite high  Yet, I do not begrudge the man trying to make ends meet. 
 

I hope his wife gets a new hip and more caregiving hours as a result too.

I explained my position but you ignored it and, as usual  read what  you  thought i wrote

Of course I  am a bit materialist 

 I have to eat, have shelter,  medical support and  friendships . Thus I don't spend money on things i don't need but just would like 

At present my wife and I  have an income of about $50000  and pay a mortgage of  $500 a fortnight or $13000 a year  So we live on about $37000  a year

Soon that income will reduce to less than 40000 dollars but my expenses will remain the same  ie we will have an income after mortgage of about   $24000. Thus I am building a bit of a buffer to be able to meet our needs   and pay for our funerals  My wife has  a separate  govt income which can only be used to meet caring/medical  needs. 

Plus medicines and medical treatments are basically free for us 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus I am building a bit of a buffer to be able to meet our needs   and pay for our funerals

Hi Walker

You can by short term insurance for a $10,000.00 payout to cover funeral expenses for people over 60 with no medical, might cost you 6-10 dollars a month for each of you 

[Mr Walker]

8 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

You can by short term insurance for a $10,000.00 payout to cover funeral expenses for people over 60 with no medical, might cost you 6-10 dollars a month for each of you 

Would cost us $26 EACH per WEEK,  because we are over 70.  In one years time my wife's premium would jump to $65 a week as she turns 80 

A funeral here would cost us about $5000 each The first one would be paid for from our savings, the second might have to be paid for from our estate 

Prepaid is another option which my sister in law  has taken up  Pay now and the cost is fixed no matter how long it is before you die   

of course we plan to live  for another decade at least  

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Would cost us $26 EACH per WEEK,  because we are over 70.  In one years time my wife's premium would jump to $65 a week as she turns 80 

A funeral here would cost us about $5000 each The first one would be paid for from our savings, the second might have to be paid for from our estate 

Prepaid is another option which my sister in law  has taken up  Pay now and the cost is fixed no matter how long it is before you die   

of course we plan to live  for another decade at least  

I get ads that have varying rates so if I was you I would look into it

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I explained my position but you ignored it and, as usual  read what  you  thought i wrote

Of course I  am a bit materialist 

 I have to eat, have shelter,  medical support and  friendships . Thus I don't spend money on things i don't need but just would like 

At present my wife and I  have an income of about $50000  and pay a mortgage of  $500 a fortnight or $13000 a year  So we live on about $37000  a year

Soon that income will reduce to less than 40000 dollars but my expenses will remain the same  ie we will have an income after mortgage of about   $24000. Thus I am building a bit of a buffer to be able to meet our needs   and pay for our funerals  My wife has  a separate  govt income which can only be used to meet caring/medical  needs. 

Plus medicines and medical treatments are basically free for us 

 

Maybe your family could help you too, didn’t you say you have multimillionaires as siblings? This is what most families do in your situation they help each other. 
None the less, all the best to you. 

 

[Crazy Horse]

13 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Good luck trying to force your beliefs ( opinion ) upon others it will only make others reject your comments, again there are no absolutes.

If you see me as trying to force my opinions upon you, then that is your problem. I was only asking a simple question.

Which came first, GOD, or this planet Earth?

[Crazy Horse]

11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

What form of Christian Spiritual beliefs do you follow?

I follow my heart.

Love is my religion.

But as a guide, I follow the actual teachings of Christ, of Buddha, and of the Vedic, Dharmic traditions too.

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:27 PM, Crazy Horse said:

I follow my heart.

Love is my religion.

But as a guide, I follow the actual teachings of Christ, of Buddha, and of the Vedic, Dharmic traditions too.

I fair enough, so your beliefs are combined and all your own that's cool. 

[Jon the frog]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:15 AM, Mr Walker said:

quote from Walker from different thread.

"It is institutional  diversity and tolerance which allows /enables a modern person to live without religion

A century or so ago it would have been almost impossible to do so.."

 

I think you are overstating a bit.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disbelieve-it-or-not-ancient-history-suggests-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion

 

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a “default setting” for humans.

 

Early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal

Tim Whitmarsh

Despite being written out of large parts of history, atheists thrived in the polytheistic societies of the ancient world – raising considerable doubts about whether humans really are “wired” for religion – a new study suggests.

The claim is the central proposition of a new book by Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture and a Fellow of St John’s College, University of Cambridge. In it, he suggests that atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilisations since.

As a result, the study challenges two assumptions that prop up current debates between atheists and believers: Firstly, the idea that atheism is a modern point of view, and second, the idea of “religious universalism” – that humans are naturally predisposed, or “wired”, to believe in gods.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/17/atheism-has-ancient-roots-claims-new-study

“Both are guilty of modernist vanity. Disbelief in the supernatural is as old as the hills. It is only through profound ignorance of the classical tradition that anyone ever believed that 18th-century Europeans were the first to battle the gods.”

“We tend to see atheism as an idea that has only recently emerged in secular western societies. The rhetoric used to describe it is hyper-modern. In fact, early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal,” said Whitmarsh.

“Rather than making judgments based on scientific reason, these early atheists were making what seem to be universal objections about the paradoxical nature of religion – the fact that it asks you to accept things that aren’t intuitively there in your world. The fact that this was happening thousands of years ago suggests that forms of disbelief can exist in all cultures, and probably always have.”

In the fourth century BC, he points to Plato, as the philosopher imagines a believer chastising an atheist: “You and your friends are not the first to have held this view about the gods! There are always those who suffer from this illness, in greater or lesser numbers.”

 So Walker

It would seem that there where many recorded since the 6-5th century bc

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

Yes ive read that article 

its a post modernist  interpretation which contradicts all accepted views across many relvant disciplines 

It  also depends on ones definition of gods.  "gods" includes spirits, nymphs, dryads, elemental  beings etc. 

The first peoples didnt distinguish between the material and the  spirtual (we know this from  Sumerian  tablets and the beliefs of modern "primitive" peoples) 

ie every thing had  a material and a spiritual component 

The earth, plants, water and fire weren't' just physical but spiritual elements.

  When you made something like a brick or a beer the sprits were involved and without them the process would fail  if you dint involve the spirits/gods in hunting  you would fail. 

There was really no way to disbelieve this, as there was no other acceptable  explanation at ahe time (no science and no real knowledge of reality) 

Finally it explains tha t some people saw religious beliefs contradicted by reality and thus did not believe  

Its true that then the y might disbelieve that particular religion or belief  but the y would adopt one which was acceptable to them  The oldest temple in the world in Turkey was used for/by many different religions as it evolved over millenia 

Plus of course, for most, spiritual things ARE intuitively a part of their world Even in the modern educated world, less than10 % of humans are atheists. The rest intuitively recognise a spiritual dimension to the universe.  

There simply wasn't enough science or knowledge to be able to dismiss the presence of spiritual beings and gods This began to change with the first civilizations.  like greek and rome  and in Asia 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mr Walker

[eight bits]

I see Buddhism isn't the only religion that has benefitted from your having taught about it in high school comparative religion class, and incorporating its teachings in your life for decades.

We are blessed to count such a one as you among us, that we may see the light, as opposed to some mere Cambridge University professor. Obviously a moron. Thanks for the heads up.

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

I see Buddhism isn't the only religion that has benefitted from your having taught about it in high school comparative religion class, and incorporating its teachings in your life for decades.

We are blessed to count such a one as you among us, that we may see the light, as opposed to some mere Cambridge University professor. Obviously a moron. Thanks for the heads up.

 

 

sarcasm should be beneath you  

I taught Buddhism to15 year olds for many years. I learned it from  books and Buddhists

(You cant effectively teach anything to  anyone unless you have a good understanding of it )

I also studied, and learned from, most of the christian faiths  and some of the major non christian  religions.

In my early years i taught at a school with students from almost 100 countries, and many religions and cultures There were teachers who were atheists, many christian faiths, and Buddhists Muslims and some other faiths  such as Shintoism  ( a couple   of the teachers were Japanese )  The community was similar, with opportunities for study with many faiths .    

   In each case that involved both book learning and studying with practitioners of a faith or belief, sometimes  for 2 years   

For reasons which should be obvious to you, I have long had an interest in and passion for, all things spiritual Past religions, present ones,  and    individual beliefs 

The psychology and cognitive aspects of faith and belief  fascinates me, as does  the  evolved purpose, power, and role of religion.

That particular  professor has advanced a theory which runs counter to all accepted understandings.  Of course he is entitled to it, but he is a bit like an academic who is a Christ myther.

He is most likely mistaken, and perhaps particularly trying to make a name for himself.    He will need to provide convincing proofs to convince his peers  in history cultural anthropology and psychology 

So ,Where am I wrong  in my analysis or observations  

Ps as i said it depends on how you define many terms, like atheism or gods .

Early people didn't have monotheistic gods .Their  world was filled with gods  and every material thing had a spiritual element  Gods lived in them and around them, in every aspect of life  (or so the y perceived )  

I dont argue that logical thinkers from  any age might disbelieve in gods who clearly didn't fit into the natural world which they could observe around them.  But ,until modern science, and knowledge  there has always been room for belief in some form of gods, and even today over 90% of humans perceive a spiritual element to their world, just as their ancestors did  Without knowledge and science it  is hard to deny the existence of gods to explain the inexplicable  but observable.

Try explaining lighting and thunder without any scientific knowledge, and purely from  observation and logic .  

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Try explaining lighting and thunder without any scientific knowledge, and purely from  observation and logic

Hi Walker

To me it would signify a type of rain storm because that can be observed. As a child I was not told it was a god but understood that if there was thunder and lightning that it would be a rain storm rather than the other types of rainfall and head for home/shelter 

[+Liquid Gardens]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Without knowledge and science it  is hard to deny the existence of gods to explain the inexplicable  but observable.

Depends on what you mean by 'deny'.  One qualification that seems to be missing from your 'analysis' is that, just like today, some people can live with 'we don't know' as their position on something.  Some people back then will look at lightning and not need to have some answer for it and conclude, 'we don't know where lightning comes from'.  Some people are also going to recognize that 'gods' doesn't really explain much and that other things that we can likewise just imagine will also 'explain' the phenomenon just as well.  It will occur to some people that the powers of the gods overlap and the implications of it; "was that lightning bolt from Thor because he's angry, or instead from Odin who wants to show me his power, or from Loki tricking me in some way? - why, actually lightning is so arbitrary and random it's almost like gods don't have anything to do with it at all...". 

There are many other reasons for questioning the 'god' answer that do not rely on science, and I don't think only modern people are able to recognize that.

[Nosy.Matters]

So -- religion function/significance content, condensed answer to thread is ?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Nosy.Matters
function/significance reflective extra

[Will Due]

45 minutes ago, Nosy.Matters said:

So -- religion function/significance content, condensed answer to thread is ?

 

Of all things, seek first the kingdom of heaven and everything else of significance and gain of function, will be found therewith.

The good news that's associated with this, is that you don't have to look far for it, because the kingdom of God is already present within you.

So the only thing required to be engaged with it is to have saving faith that God is your Father, and you are his child. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Will Due

[Nosy.Matters]

Oh 'ptt ,

 we have a taker,, your reply could relate to significance in  some fashion. I like that word significance because I was asked that once; I replied like milk I suppose for kids and kittens and gives comfort-hope on Sunday for most. Thanks for the reply Will. Walker mentioned sarcasm ,, what ?phraseology, brb ... oh beneath one.

I tend to exaggerate to drive a point but if used in a good light, sarcasm keeps things lively. Being spiritual (as close a I get to being vaguely religious) it also keeps my spirit! alive and well.

On the fly this was my feeble attempt  of correlation with your,, god is in you.

Recap, your reply is appreciated Will -- be well -- be safe and try to be good(bit of humor).

ps: I seldom reply or post, systems are offline & its agony on this toy phone the Army guy gave me. Let me say again, I can not post or reply much.

Regards,

 --nosy

Edited July 23, 2021 by Nosy.Matters
- ... sublim