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Eldorado

Pope puts father of modern Europe on sainthood path

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Eldorado

Pope Francis has put French statesman Robert Schuman, one of the founders of modern Europe, on the path to sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Vatican said the Pope approved a decree recognising Schuman's "heroic virtues", an early stage of the long process that can lead to canonisation.

One miracle would have to be attributed to Schuman for him to be beatified and then another for him to become a saint.

Schuman, who died in 1963, was key in creating today's European institutions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57534918

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DieChecker

Meh. Politicians can be sainted now? How's Saint Don T sound?

With some luck no miracles will appear.

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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)

We read about how certain Roman emperors were “deified” after their deaths.

 

 The Romans, of course, did not literally believe that their departed leaders were made into gods.  Rather, deification was a formal ceremony reserved as a mark of the highest respect that the religious and civil authorities could confer on an emperor; in practice, it was very much like the modern Roman Catholic Church’s canonization of saints as a way to honor those who have rendered distinguished services.  The Roman Church inherited many of the old imperial traditions before putting its own distinctive stamp on them.  I do not mean that the specific procedure for deification and canonization was similar; I mean that the purpose and significance of deification was roughly analogous to the Church’s honor of canonization.   Wikipedia

It's not called The ROMAN Catholic Church, for nothing, folks. Many of it's traditions are hundreds if not thousands of years older than Christ, himself.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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and then

At first glance this seems almost sacrilegious but after reminding myself that he's a good candidate for the first secular pope, making a secular individual a saint isn't such a stretch.

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L.A.T.1961

Robert Schuman, one of the European Union’s founding fathers, has taken step towards becoming a saint of the Roman Catholic Church, according to a decree published by the Vatican on Saturday. 

Schuman, described in the decree as a “faithful layman,” played a key role in reconstructing post-war Europe, and along with other political leaders like Jean Monnet, had an instrumental role in setting up the current EU institutions. 

 

I cannot see why the Catholic church would involve itself in politics but putting that aside why start at least half way down a list of individuals who changed the world in that period.  

https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-schuman-saint-european-union-founder/

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Ted E Hughes
9 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Robert Schuman, one of the European Union’s founding fathers, has taken step towards becoming a saint of the Roman Catholic Church, according to a decree published by the Vatican on Saturday. 

Schuman, described in the decree as a “faithful layman,” played a key role in reconstructing post-war Europe, and along with other political leaders like Jean Monnet, had an instrumental role in setting up the current EU institutions. 

 

I cannot see why the Catholic church would involve itself in politics but putting that aside why start at least half way down a list of individuals who changed the world in that period.  

https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-schuman-saint-european-union-founder/

You're not big on history, then?

Have a look at the role of the Catholic Church with regard to Nazi Germany and WW2 for starters.

Then have a browse through the Wikipedia entries on the Inquisition, from medieval times to the 19th century.

All religions is intertwined with politics, Catholicism more than most.

 

.

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Ted E Hughes

A very worthy choice! Anyone who plays a part in delivering peace in Europe deserves honours.

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L.A.T.1961
21 hours ago, ted hughes said:

A very worthy choice! Anyone who plays a part in delivering peace in Europe deserves honours.

I think he is as likely to be responsible for peace in Europe as he is a miracle or two the church need for a sainthood to be bestowed upon his long departed soul. ;)

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L.A.T.1961
22 hours ago, ted hughes said:

You're not big on history, then?

Have a look at the role of the Catholic Church with regard to Nazi Germany and WW2 for starters.

Then have a browse through the Wikipedia entries on the Inquisition, from medieval times to the 19th century.

All religions is intertwined with politics, Catholicism more than most.

 

.

We are talking about Catholicism today, my history may not match David Starky :geek: but last time I Iooked 2021 was not in the 19c.

I would say the biggest affect the Catholic church has today is on choir boys. ;)  So that at least has probably not changed.

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DieChecker
On 6/20/2021 at 1:51 PM, L.A.T.1961 said:

I cannot see why the Catholic church would involve itself in politics but putting that aside why start at least half way down a list of individuals who changed the world in that period.  

https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-schuman-saint-european-union-founder/

Perhaps Schuman was a prodigious tither and the Church "owes" him some "treasures in Heaven".

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Ted E Hughes
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

We are talking about Catholicism today, my history may not match David Starky :geek: but last time I Iooked 2021 was not in the 19c.

I would say the biggest affect the Catholic church has today is on choir boys. ;)  So that at least has probably not changed.

My personal view is that all organised religions are corrupt (I mean the big political ones, not a private faith someone might have, which could be directed towards  god, nature, whatever they believe in). 

The RC church is one of the most corrupt.

I agree that the biggest effect the church has is mostly negative,  not just on choir boys but also girls whose lives have been ruined by prudery mixed with corruption and hypocrisy.

I don't see being canonisation as a honour. I agree, he is probably being considered because of some bribe or backhander.

 

Edited by ted hughes

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Helen of Annoy
4 hours ago, ted hughes said:

My personal view is that all organised religions are corrupt (I mean the big political ones, not a private faith someone might have, which could be directed towards  god, nature, whatever they believe in). 

Mine too. Personal faith is one thing, organized religions something completely else. 

4 hours ago, ted hughes said:

The RC church is one of the most corrupt.

I agree that the biggest effect the church has is mostly negative,  not just on choir boys but also girls whose lives have been ruined by prudery mixed with corruption and hypocrisy.

I don't see being canonisation as a honour. I agree, he is probably being considered because of some bribe or backhander.

 

How high is RC in the corruption list, in my opinion, could be asserted only if we had actual data. Big religions' dirty business is big too, so it's more visible, but I'd still say a small enterprise made exclusively to milk money from the cultists is the most corrupt form of religion.

RC has insane luck (theologically, you could say it's God's blessing) that it's been aggressively scrutinized by competition :lol: so it has no choice but to face own faults, that have been exposed in public, and possibly - hopefully - do something about them.   

When attacking Christianity it's of course the most desirable to attack RC, since it is historically the "original" Christian church. With hypothetical destruction of RC tradition, each later spin-off becomes without roots, loses continuity with the actual, physical path of Christianity. 

Just mentioning this to clarify why I think there're so many resources spent on exposing the (yes, very real) faults of RC. 

 

Anyway, Catholicism is also the tribal choice of religion of at least half Europe, which makes it politicized, yes, of course, so I'm looking forward to a probable new saint with perfect political implications (if you ask me) :D   

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Ted E Hughes
5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

When attacking Christianity it's of course the most desirable to attack RC, since it is historically the "original" Christian church. With hypothetical destruction of RC tradition, each later spin-off becomes without roots, loses continuity with the actual, physical path of Christianity. 

 

Dunno how  that ties in with this, which is late in the history of the RC religion: 9,000 children died in Ireland's mother and baby homes, report says | Daily Mail Online

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Helen of Annoy
1 hour ago, ted hughes said:

Dunno how  that ties in with this, which is late in the history of the RC religion: 9,000 children died in Ireland's mother and baby homes, report says | Daily Mail Online

You, of course, do not imply that mothers and babies were murdered at Pope's request. 

Context matters.

What was the overall situation? Were these deaths murders out of perversion or were they consequence of hard conditions, in and out of Catholic homes? 

If RC is routinely raping and murdering children in their care, and that's Church's official practice, how come my mother is alive and wasn't ever approached in improper way, and she literally spent her childhood and early youth in a monastery? Could it be that it's not RC doctrine that kills children on purpose, but failures of humans, often trapped in situation that doesn't offer much room for humanity? 

In other words, even if children were dying too in care that wasn't Catholic, how could you know about it. It takes a lot of courage and effort to stand up to structures that are "yours". While it's so easy and convenient to disregard the context and just blame it all on the existence of Catholicism. Too easy to be realistic, in my opinion.   

And on the other ideological hand, I've got horrible experience with crazy women who worked in daycare, back in socialism, and damn b****es were communist party members. Because that's how you'd advance back then, not because stupid *****s could actually read and understand what Marx or Engels blathered about.

No, perverts are not determined by the fact if they're Catholics or not, they're determined by the fact they're screwed in their heads and they'll use any ideology for their mentally ill purposes. Or business. Or both. 

 

There's no defence for actual perversions done within the RC. Jesus wouldn't defend them, any decent atheist wouldn't, so I won't either. Exposing crime is God's work. 

But the narrative that focuses on RC alone, implying greed and perversions are limited to Catholics only, is obviously and dangerously biased. The sense of false security (oh, we're not Catholics, so it can't and does not happen among us) only makes the conditions for the perverts better. 

Not to mention how immoral it is to simply blame Catholics for not ignoring the poor and therefore having a lot of casualties of shared misery.

(I am not defending actual crimes, I'm pointing out that each mass death attributed with malice to Catholicism should be examined in context of the situation in which it happened. When famine was decimating Italy in early 20th century, for example, people were not dying because they were Catholics, or because RC could but didn't want to save them - the same famine would take the same toll if they magically turned atheists too, complete with the Pope. Context matters. Without it, an actual fact may become a political weapon.) 

 

Back to the possible new saint - the EU is a miracle. Much needed miracle. Sane and ethical (absolutely not limited to any religion or lack of it) efforts are taking shape, in a world taken hostage by blind greed, that breeds hostility. 

May as many crimes as it is possible are stopped and may virtues are rewarded with acknowledgement and remembrance.  

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Ted E Hughes
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You, of course, do not imply that mothers and babies were murdered at Pope's request. 

Context matters.

What was the overall situation? Were these deaths murders out of perversion or were they consequence of hard conditions, in and out of Catholic homes? 

If RC is routinely raping and murdering children in their care, and that's Church's official practice, how come my mother is alive and wasn't ever approached in improper way, and she literally spent her childhood and early youth in a monastery? Could it be that it's not RC doctrine that kills children on purpose, but failures of humans, often trapped in situation that doesn't offer much room for humanity? 

In other words, even if children were dying too in care that wasn't Catholic, how could you know about it. It takes a lot of courage and effort to stand up to structures that are "yours". While it's so easy and convenient to disregard the context and just blame it all on the existence of Catholicism. Too easy to be realistic, in my opinion.   

And on the other ideological hand, I've got horrible experience with crazy women who worked in daycare, back in socialism, and damn b****es were communist party members. Because that's how you'd advance back then, not because stupid *****s could actually read and understand what Marx or Engels blathered about.

No, perverts are not determined by the fact if they're Catholics or not, they're determined by the fact they're screwed in their heads and they'll use any ideology for their mentally ill purposes. Or business. Or both. 

 

There's no defence for actual perversions done within the RC. Jesus wouldn't defend them, any decent atheist wouldn't, so I won't either. Exposing crime is God's work. 

But the narrative that focuses on RC alone, implying greed and perversions are limited to Catholics only, is obviously and dangerously biased. The sense of false security (oh, we're not Catholics, so it can't and does not happen among us) only makes the conditions for the perverts better. 

Not to mention how immoral it is to simply blame Catholics for not ignoring the poor and therefore having a lot of casualties of shared misery.

(I am not defending actual crimes, I'm pointing out that each mass death attributed with malice to Catholicism should be examined in context of the situation in which it happened. When famine was decimating Italy in early 20th century, for example, people were not dying because they were Catholics, or because RC could but didn't want to save them - the same famine would take the same toll if they magically turned atheists too, complete with the Pope. Context matters. Without it, an actual fact may become a political weapon.) 

 

Back to the possible new saint - the EU is a miracle. Much needed miracle. Sane and ethical (absolutely not limited to any religion or lack of it) efforts are taking shape, in a world taken hostage by blind greed, that breeds hostility. 

May as many crimes as it is possible are stopped and may virtues are rewarded with acknowledgement and remembrance.  

I have reproduced your whole post because it is useful and thoughtful. I have highlighted two bits- context does indeed matter. "The facts never speak for themselves" is a basic tenet of sociological theory. 

And the EU is indeed a miracle. The Brits were to a large extent insulated from some of  the moral dilemmas that land-locked countries faced in WW2- be occupied or die pointlessly. We pulled together during the Blitz, but who know what would have happened if we had been occupied- even in the Blitz there was a spike in looting and violent crime (criminals were taking advantage of the blackout and destruction).

I'm not anti RC particularly, I'm anti all organised religion. My personal belief is that religion is inextricably linked with power, and we all know what power does.

I was also brought up in a devout household, as an atheist I had a struggle with reconciling my scepticism with family belief that we could speak in tongues given the right circumstances, were all descended from the Jews, and prayer was vital even though it produced no results whatsoever over chance or luck.

As soon as I learned the Earth was not the centre of the universe and about the theory of evolution, I decided for myself what made the most sense.

I remember a story from my childhood (may not have been true) where a village in S America had a drive to raise money to build a medical clinic- the local priest heard and visited to confiscate the gold items donated "as gold belonged to God, not a poor village".

 

 

Edited by ted hughes
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Helen of Annoy
7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

I have reproduced your whole post because it is useful and thoughtful. I have highlighted two bits- context does indeed matter. "The facts never speak for themselves" is a basic tenet of sociological theory. 

Thank you for actually reading my posts. It feels great to be met with genuine kindness.  

 

7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

And the EU is indeed a miracle. The Brits were to a large extent insulated from some of  the moral dilemmas that land-locked countries faced in WW2- be occupied or die pointlessly. We pulled together during the Blitz, but who know what would have happened if we had been occupied- even in the Blitz there was a spike in looting and violent crime (criminals were taking advantage of the blackout and destruction).

WWII was extremely complex in many European countries - it wasn't clear for an average person, without modern means of communication and without the wisdom that only hindsight can bring, that they're signing the contract with the devil. Also, I dare say majority didn't even choose the side, they were simply "dressed up" by the first army that was going through their area. I kid you not. I had great privilege of listening to stories of many grandparents (not just my biological grandparents, it's customary to call and respect every older person as you would your own grandparents). One of them was changing the forces he's fighting for, for three times during the WWII. If he didn't, he wouldn't stay alive. Since he did, he had a story for me that contributed to my decision to try not stereotyping people. Was he in fascist forces for a while? Yes. Was he a fascist? Hell no. Just a common man not ready to be a martyr. If he was killed at that point, he would be a victim too, not a perpetrator. Anyway. The EU is the safeguard against such situations. In my humble opinion, it should be pointed out more often. I know people think it can't happen at their place, but I was thinking so too right until the first mortar fell next to me.  

 

7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

I'm not anti RC particularly, I'm anti all organised religion. My personal belief is that religion is inextricably linked with power, and we all know what power does.

In my opinion, you're right. 

I'm just arrogant enough to assume such unholy alliance of religion and politics can be harnessed. (In my particular area, you have to work with the fact that there's tribal choice of religion and that each conflict will have traits of religious conflict. It's what you have to work with, there's no way around it.)

 

7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

I was also brought up in a devout household, as an atheist I had a struggle with reconciling my scepticism with family belief that we could speak in tongues given the right circumstances, were all descended from the Jews, and prayer was vital even though it produced no results whatsoever over chance or luck.

As soon as I learned the Earth was not the centre of the universe and about the theory of evolution, I decided for myself what made the most sense.

Good for you :yes: 

My personal spiritual nest is made of material from many sources. It must look weird :D but it's comfortable for me. 

 

7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

I remember a story from my childhood (may not have been true) where a village in S America had a drive to raise money to build a medical clinic- the local priest heard and visited to confiscate the gold items donated "as gold belonged to God, not a poor village".

 

 

I hope it's not true. I fear it is. That what God made short-fused people like me for. I'd totally start a rebellion there. 

The examples for which I know for certain are true are from my part of the world. And they're contradictory. From a priest who refused to perform the burial rite if he wasn't paid up front (the public reactions were priceless - my people are not exactly capable of being meek and obedient :lol: ), to the outright admirable care for the poor and sick (without any property the Church might hope to inherit - I vouch there's pure charity going on).

In my experience, there are saints in churches too. The funny thing is that it's surprising that there're saints within churches too :D But there they are. I won't leave them, forget them or put them in the same basket with those who only claim to share their belief. 

 

On slightly amusing side, if Robert Schuman becomes a saint, he would be perfect patron saint of the EU. But the EU already has not just one but six patron saints. He'd be the seventh. That's nice, magical number :D  

   https://www.ctsbooks.org/the-patron-saints-of-europe-and-their-inspiring-stories/

 

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DieChecker

Myself, I feel the whole "sainting" thing is bogus. Smells vaguely like idolatry to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics will Pray toward a Saint, and expect them to intercede with God for them. Whats this guy going to Intercede for? EU government issues. Patron Saint of post WW2 European politics?

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Helen of Annoy
10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Myself, I feel the whole "sainting" thing is bogus. Smells vaguely like idolatry to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics will Pray toward a Saint, and expect them to intercede with God for them. Whats this guy going to Intercede for? EU government issues. Patron Saint of post WW2 European politics?

Correct, you're not wrong - Catholics (and Orthodox) pray to saints who then pray together with them. 

Probable future Saint Rober Schuman may intercede for anyone in any matter, saints are not limited to their specific patronage. It's not a mistake or bad manners to pray to any saint for help in any matter, they don't have departments they'd be jealous of or something :D 

So, for example, I could pray to soon to be Blessed Robert Schuman to pray with me for the healing of someone gravely ill, not just for, say, swift reunification of Ireland. If such prayers result in just one miraculous recovery from the illness (political events are generally not considered, since it's very hard to say a large scale event depended on one believer-saint team alone), he would be confirmed a saint.  

 

Yes, yes, I know, I know... but who am I, or you, or anyone else, to say how this existence really works?

Personally, I did invoke saints and it worked for me. Sure, it could be just the way of focusing own mind on the connection with the Absolute and the Absolute very certainly isn't exclusively Catholic. So I'm recommending the practice of invoking Christian saints, while not believing it matters they're Christian or saints :lol: 

It's simple, really, if you just ignore all the confusion :lol:     

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