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Manwon Lender

Looking for God and Space Aliens

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)

The paper this thread is based upon is a very interesting look at how Science and Religion have many over lapping similarities. It gives the reader a different approach to the mysteries and the curiosity all humans have concerning these subjects. The paper is 2 pages long and it is an interesting read from any perspective.

The most obvious and fundamental similarity between SETI and Tradition Religion in their mutual focus on things beyond Earth. Both SETI and Religionists both turn their minds toward the heavens looking for answers. Both posit the existence of intelligent in the depths of space, and both look for the intelligence they seek. In addition both also possess a profound sense of Curiosity, Mystery, and Wonder about their quest for knowledge concerning the search for the mysteries they seek.

Traditional religion is said to give meaning to existence. It brings together the reasons and purposes for living. Religion makes the small, frailindividual strong through an alliance with the great power of a God or Gods. Traditional religion gives hope that the individual will not perish but continue after death in the presence of God.

SETI does not openly espouse the great promises of traditional religion. However, many of those active within the SETI community find their lives are made far more meaningful by the fact that they engaged in a search for the answer to one of the most important questions of human existence, "Are We Alone "

https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/26/2000/07/22155955/p38.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Likely Guy

"Are we alone"? I doubt it,.

"Is there an omnipotent being?" I doubt it, nor do I care.

"If there are intelligent aliens, would we call them 'Gods'?" I think that's the better question.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Likely Guy said:

"Are we alone"? I doubt it,.

"Is there an omnipotent being?" I doubt it, nor do I care.

"If there are intelligent aliens, would we call them 'Gods'?" I think that's the better question.

I actually think you make a great point. However, today if an extraterrestrial group of visitors came to Earth, I don t think they would be viewed as Gods. Our Scientific knowledge today has advanced to point where as a Species we would certainly know the difference. 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Likely Guy

Even if our level of understanding of their technology was dwarfed by theirs and they were noncorpereal? I think that some people would treat them as Gods.

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Manwon Lender
16 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Even if our level of understanding of their technology was dwarfed by theirs and they were noncorpereal? I think that some people would treat them as Gods.

I don't completely disagree with you, there are people who would believe that those visitors could be God, or Gods. Now, I would totally agree with you if it had occurred in mankinds past, but today those believers would be limited. But, let's me be clear, if anyone chooses to believe that alien visitors may be Gods, I am not here to redicule their belief.

However, I believe the majority of mankind would not see them that way. Because Science is mankinds new belief system, and some would say that Science is a new religion. That is based upon unlocking the secrets of all that religions are unable to explain, this is what truly separates religion from Science.

But even with that said, today the largest organized religions have experts that are catching up with the Science at hand today. So if our knowledge continues to grow there may come a day when most find religion no longer has purpose, because the answers religions can not give us Science can.

Once this becomes more clearly understood the mystery of who we are, where we came from, and where we are going will be answered. When this happens what will Religion have to offer?

Peace my friend

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9 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

But even with that said, today the largest organized religions have experts that are catching up with the Science at hand today. So if our knowledge continues to grow there may come a day when most find religion no longer has purpose, because the answers religions can not give us Science can.

Once this becomes more clearly understood the mystery of who we are, where we came from, and where we are going will be answered. When this happens what will Religion have to offer?

Hi Manwon

Interesting topic, there are many potentials yet for some reason I have my reservations as to if any intelligent aliens would have advanced to the point of knowing "The Beginning"  and who knows maybe they create a religion based on science "the realizer of critical thought", "the great inventor". "the one who reasons". My thoughts are religion evolved through human observation of self as in individual and as part of a group that somehow got capitalized on so in the future may exist as part of a social consciousness with god just being aware and respectful to others no matter what planet we might think their from.;)

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Manwon

Interesting topic, there are many potentials yet for some reason I have my reservations as to if any intelligent aliens would have advanced to the point of knowing "The Beginning"  and who knows maybe they create a religion based on science "the realizer of critical thought", "the great inventor". "the one who reasons". My thoughts are religion evolved through human observation of self as in individual and as part of a group that somehow got capitalized on so in the future may exist as part of a social consciousness with god just being aware and respectful to others no matter what planet we might think their from.;)

Acoording to Astrophysics the beginning was created by an explosive singularity that is still expanding today. The most recent scientific theories state this occurred approximately 13.4 Billion years ago. So I am pretty certain that with our limited knowledge any intelligent species that equals or greatly surpasses our level of intelligence  in the Universe would also be aware of the same thing. The laws of Physics apply equally across our Universe, the only difference concerning those laws would be how advance scientificly and technologically a species is who interprets the laws. 

This post I made in the following thread reasonably explains where mankinds religious beliefs came from.

 

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Acoording to Astrophysics the beginning was created by an explosive singularity that is still expanding today. The most recent scientific theories state this occurred approximately 13.4 Billion years ago. So I am pretty certain that with our limited knowledge any intelligent species that equals or greatly surpasses our level of intelligence  in the Universe would also be aware of the same thing. The laws of Physics apply equally across our Universe, the only difference concerning those laws would be how advance scientificly and technologically a species is who interprets the laws. 

Hi Manwon

I have no expectation of an alien race other than somewhere. someplace aliens exist and beyond that it is all speculation. Science studies lots of thing that cannot be seen and I neither have their education or resources to argue what they find and let them do it with each other until one is left standing and accept that that is the consensus as I have no way personally to validate or argue any of their findings.

At this time we do not know what existed prior to and contributed to the big bang so I will wait and likely be not remembered by the time it is proven.

On the cause of religion  you presented a position that cannot be validated as absolute, prostitution is the oldest profession but there has always been players that use others to their end. As I said it is my personal view that humans watched/observed each other and used it hopefully to the benefit of the whole. I knew guys that worked for me that hated certain parts of a job and blaze through it and do it to spec so I would train 2 guys by putting one guy who had to prep ahead of him and one guy behind to do finish so one had to run to stay ahead and the other ran to keep up trained a good team that way.

Back on topic the observations of humans in groups shows how to control/unite/direct people and for me much religious foundation is based on human governing humans as an add on to the mystical sides of religious thinking

edit to add link

shttps://opentextbc.ca/introductiontosociology2ndedition/chapter/chapter-15-religion/

15.1. The Sociological Approach to Religion

  • Explain the difference between substantial, functional, and family resemblance definitions of religion.
  • Describe the four dimensions of religion: Belief, ritual, experience, and community.
  • Understand classifications of religion, like animism, polytheism, monotheism, and atheism.
  • Differentiate between the five world religions.
  • Explain the differences between various types of religious organizations: Churches, ecclesia, sects, and cults.

15.2. Sociological Explanations of Religion

  • Examine the nature of sociological explanations of religion.
  • Compare and contrast theories on religion — Marx, Durkheim, Weber, Berger, Stark, Daly, and Woodhead.

15.3. Religion and Social Change

  • Describe current global and Canadian trends of secularization and religious belief.
  • Describe the current religious diversity of Canada and its implications for social policy.
  • Explain the development and the sources of new religious movements.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958132/

There have been as many attempts to define religion as to explain its origins. Broadly defined, religion is a set of beliefs and behaviors based on a shared worldview that separates the sacred, or supernatural, from the profane (Durkheim 1965 [1912]). In this study of its origins, we view religion as a biocultural adaptation (Alcorta and Sosis 2005; Harris and McNamara 2008; Sanderson and Roberts 2008).

 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Manwon

I have no expectation of an alien race other than somewhere. someplace aliens exist and beyond that it is all speculation. Science studies lots of thing that cannot be seen and I neither have their education or resources to argue what they find and let them do it with each other until one is left standing and accept that that is the consensus as I have no way personally to validate or argue any of their findings.

At this time we do not know what existed prior to and contributed to the big bang so I will wait and likely be not remembered by the time it is proven.

On the cause of religion  you presented a position that cannot be validated as absolute, prostitution is the oldest profession but there has always been players that use others to their end. As I said it is my personal view that humans watched/observed each other and used it hopefully to the benefit of the whole. I knew guys that worked for me that hated certain parts of a job and blaze through it and do it to spec so I would train 2 guys by putting one guy who had to prep ahead of him and one guy behind to do finish so one had to run to stay ahead and the other ran to keep up trained a good team that way.

Back on topic the observations of humans in groups shows how to control/unite/direct people and for me much religious foundation is based on human governing humans as an add on to the mystical sides of religious thinking

 

I dont understand where prostitution came into my post, I never said anything about  that please reread my comments. What I said was the beginning of religion for mankind was nature. Nature and  Mother Earth where the first gods that were worshipped by man, and some still worshiped them today.

In my opinion mankind will have no need for God in our future. Because omnipotent Deities can not answer the questions Science can answer. Now, I am not here to criticize or belittle anyone's beliefs I am only offering my thoughts on the subject. If anyone finds a belief that can fill the holes in their life, I am happy for them because that's what we all seek. 

My spirituality is humanist with respect to the fact that it is my belief that all that happens to us throughout our lives is direct result of the actions we taken. Everything to me is cause and effect, and this gives us a great deal of control over how our lives play out. 

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Just now, Manwon Lender said:

I dont understand where prostitution came into my post,

Hi Manwon

Did not mean any disrespect, old traditions are old traditions and religion is more tradition through ritual than anything else based on how humans react and I am sure there was a player in the game.

4 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

In my opinion mankind will have no need for God in our future.

Agreed but it function of being a group that identifies will still carry on and that is why I think religion will go back to it's grass roots of human observation of humans as individuals and as part of a group.

5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

My spirituality is humanist with respect to the fact that it is my belief that all that happens to us throughout our lives is direct result of the actions we taken. Everything to me is cause and effect, and this gives us a great deal of control over how our lives play out. 

Yes and I have no problem with that, I have a spiritual aspect of my life as well although I do not see it as a god//religious sort of thing it's just the way I move through the world I live in. Some times we have to take actions that put us in a difficult place and that is life. I am not a man of math but I am a man of calculation so yes we do exercise control over ourselves and some like to extent that to over others.

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Manwon Lender
9 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Manwon

Did not mean any disrespect, old traditions are old traditions and religion is more tradition through ritual than anything else based on how humans react and I am sure there was a player in the game.

Agreed but it function of being a group that identifies will still carry on and that is why I think religion will go back to it's grass roots of human observation of humans as individuals and as part of a group.

Yes and I have no problem with that, I have a spiritual aspect of my life as well although I do not see it as a god//religious sort of thing it's just the way I move through the world I live in. Some times we have to take actions that put us in a difficult place and that is life. I am not a man of math but I am a man of calculation so yes we do exercise control over ourselves and some like to extent that to over others.

That's the problem with religion, after it became a practice some men realized that it could be used to control populations. This control has caused as much death and destruction that any natural disease has caused throughout man's history. So I totally understand where you are coming from with your comments above. This is why I have and never will be involved personally with any organized Religious practice. 

You know I follow the Buddhist Philosophy, and the reason this appeals me is because that factor of religious control doesn't exist in this Philosophy. Based upon this everything makes the individual responsible for their own actions, this is true freedom of choice and also it makes each of us personally responsibility for all aspects of our individual lives. If things are bad there is no one else to blame, or that is responsible for making the needed changes to turn the situation around.

This empowers each of us to guide a large part of our own destiny without any formal or informal control. 

Peace.  

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

That's the problem with religion, after it became a practice some men realized that it could be used to control populations. This control has caused as much death and destruction that any natural disease has caused throughout man's history. So I totally understand where you are coming from with your comments above. This is why I have and never will be involved personally with any organized Religious practice. 

Yes and it's not just religion, many years ago when I was a young lad my dad said you could give 10 men 1 million dollars each and put them in a small community. Come back 10 years later 1 guy has 10 million and 9 guys working for him and that is how I look at  how humans evolved in groups, there was one leader. You and I know what that is like because we have both had men under our orders and been under the orders of others. Will politics become a religion both have believers and ritual?

30 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

You know I follow the Buddhist Philosophy, and the reason this appeals me is because that factor of religious control doesn't exist in this Philosophy. Based upon this everything makes the individual responsible for their own actions, this is true freedom of choice and also it makes each of us personally responsibility for all aspects of our individual lives. If things are bad there is no one else to blame, or that is responsible for making the needed changes to turn the situation around.

This empowers each of us to guide a large part of our own destiny without any formal or informal control. 

Yes I follow your other thread actively without participation and have respect for your perspective. In some ways we are not so different considering the job risk stress and I have always had a playful nature and filled out a psyche profile test and there was a question I didn't know how to answer. It was "would you do something dangerous for fun" so I waited till the pro showed and asked him what he thought was dangerous and he said hang gliding. I said well it is a legitimate sport with a low incident rate and I would not find it that dangerous. He did not know that I made a living doing dangerous work like walking on a 10" I beam 200 feet off ground with my feet as safety equipment or crawling into confined spaces in refineries during shutdown to open up towers and then they dropped the electronic sniffers in to see if it was safe.:lol:

I said to him for that one second between life and death was worth .04 cents what's the difference between that and free, that blew his gasket.:lol:.

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not sure but did it anyway
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Manwon Lender
42 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Yes and it's not just religion, many years ago when I was a young lad my dad said you could give 10 men 1 million dollars each and put them in a small community. Come back 10 years later 1 guy has 10 million and 9 guys working for him and that is how I look at  how humans evolved in groups, there was one leader. You and I know what that is like because we have both had men under our orders and been under the orders of others. Will politics become a religion both have believers and ritual?

Yes I follow your other thread actively without participation and have respect for your perspective. In some ways we are not so different considering the job risk stress and I have always had a playful nature and filled out a psyche profile test and there was a question I didn't know how to answer. It was "would you do something dangerous for fun" so I waited till the pro showed and asked him what he thought was dangerous and he said hang gliding. I said well it is a legitimate sport with a low incident rate and I would not find it that dangerous. He did not know that I made a living doing dangerous work like walking on a 10" I beam 200 feet off ground with my feet as safety equipment or crawling into confined spaces in refineries during shutdown to open up towers and then they dropped the electronic sniffers in to see if it was safe.:lol:

I said to him for that one second between life and death was worth .04 cents what's the difference between that and free, that blew his gasket.:lol:.

I understand what you saying, to live the life I have and still be able to talk about is a combination of luck and being a adrenaline junky. As foolish as this may sound, tense situations have always been some what enjoyable for me. In addition, I also respond to tense situation in a positive manner, because of that adrenaline rush. In situations like I am talking about stress effects different people in dramaticly different ways. I have seen leaders shut down to a point where their subordinates had to take charge to complete a mission. For me I feel like the energizer bunny, but the down side to that is after the mission I am exhausted, man a pot of coffee can not even keep me awake. I have fallen asleep in debriefings standing up  at attention with my eyes open, and .I have gotten caught doing it!:lol: But, my chain of command always overlooked those shortcomings, and after giving me a hard time .I was just one of the guys again!:D

To me the military was my extended family and my people were my most important possessions. Completing a mission was always an important factor for me, but making sure that we could complete the mission and all come home was more important. I got a letter of reprimand from a Major General because he put people's lives at risk during a training exercise and that crap don't flush. Few years later he was forced into retirement in disgrace and a Platoon Sergeant who followed his incompetent orders was also forced out early because of the deaths of two soldiers. As far as, politics ever becoming a religion I doubt it, and I honestly hope it never takes place. Because at that point what is the difference between a President and a cult leader. I think the closest the US ever cames to this was the Trump Administration. 

President Trumps base was comprised of many different types of personalities. This is where the difference between ignorance and stupidity comes into extreme play. The reason ignorance is blustful is because the ignorant do not have a knowledge base that allows them to understand what is political and non-political correct. So really you can look down on someone for being truely ignorant because we all are depending upon the subject. Now the people I have no patience for are those people who act in a stupid manner. You see true stupidity is knowing that something is not politically correct and doing it anyway. These are the Trump Supportes and the Politicians who enabled this man and helped him commit the crimes against the US Constitution and the American people and for me their actions can not be tolerated.

Take Care, I enjoyed the conversation very thank you my friend!:tu:

 

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XenoFish

Looked like a decent thread till politics was brought up. I even thought of an on topic reply, but forget it. 

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Manwon Lender
28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Looked like a decent thread till politics was brought up. I even thought of an on topic reply, but forget it. 

Truly sorry dude, that was not my intention.

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Manwon Lender

IMMORTALITY The “great attractor” for traditional religion is immortality—the burning wish not to perish at death. SETI offers no such promise. The closest that it can come is speculation. Frank Drake, the original SETI pioneer, has ventured an opinion in his book Is Anyone Out There?: “. . . immortality may be quite common among extraterrestrials.” Drake further speculates that contact with advanced civilizations may lead to the discovery of possible secrets to immortality. It does seem reasonable that technologically advanced creatures would seek to preserve themselves for longer and longer periods of time. Perhaps permanent preservation of life experiences is not out of the question. This whole area of speculation is, however, not central to the SETI endeavor. The quest for life extension may linger in the backs of the minds of some of those engaged in the search, but the whole question is too problematic and speculative to emphasize.

p38.pdf (centerforinquiry.org)

 

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Hammerclaw

Everyone who has ever tried to swim against the tide of history has died of old age, not making any progress. On the tidal wave of time, we're all here for the ride.

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XenoFish
8 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Truly sorry dude, that was not my intention.

Not so sure about that. Seems your go to thing in a lot of threads.

Don't worry you can count me out of this thread. 

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Not so sure about that. Seems your go to thing in a lot of threads.

Don't worry you can count me out of this thread. 

Thanks for your opinion.

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DieChecker

My father in law, who is a priest/pastor had said numerous times that from his contacts/news feeds, that Christianity has become infatuated with UFOs. All the DOD videos have cause many (Looking at you Southern Baptists) to claim these are a sign of the End Times and AntiChrist/Beast is coming soon. Of course they say that about everything... wars, AIDS, terrorist attacks, global warming, Biden getting elected... and so on.

I'd suppose belief in the supernatural makes belief in aliens/UFOs easier.

An alien contact, followed by tons of people wanting on their good side, could easily be seen as fulfilling much of Revelations prophesy about the final days. Especially if the aliens only had one mouthpiece/frontman.

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

My father in law, who is a priest/pastor had said numerous times that from his contacts/news feeds, that Christianity has become infatuated with UFOs. All the DOD videos have cause many (Looking at you Southern Baptists) to claim these are a sign of the End Times and AntiChrist/Beast is coming soon. Of course they say that about everything... wars, AIDS, terrorist attacks, global warming, Biden getting elected... and so on.

I'd suppose belief in the supernatural makes belief in aliens/UFOs easier.

An alien contact, followed by tons of people wanting on their good side, could easily be seen as fulfilling much of Revelations prophesy about the final days. Especially if the aliens only had one mouthpiece/frontman.

:w00t::lol:

You could certainly be right especially if the Aliens want to Serve Man!:lol:

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