ChrLzs Posted July 3, 2021 #151 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Yes, there's a lot we don't know. And also, the technology we use always has limits. By definition, that means that there will always be UFOs, ie things that are only just detected at the extreme range of what the technology can do, and thus there isn't enough information to make a definite ID. However... There's an awful lot we do know. Including: - in the videos shown to date all the objects were tracked successfully in visible light / IR, even though they were outside the range at which the technology could determine an accurate shape optically. Using simple trigonometry, maths and photogrammetry, we can say with certainty that during the time they were on screen, none of those objects did anything 'unexplainable', although one of them moved at a speed commensurate with a jet aircraft. - the reports to date do make some non-specific handwaves about unexplainable maneuvers or speeds, but every such claim is NOT, I repeat NOT, based on actual data, be that from a FLIR or radar or any other tracking system. The majority of these handwaves come from pilot stories. - over the past 50 years or more, our surveillance of the skies has increased in both quantity and quality from smartphones, cheaper and thus more widespread amateur astronomy equipment and high quality cameras, webcams, dashcams, security cams, advanced military and commercial air traffic control and monitoring, ad infinitum. - over the past 50 years or more, we have also become more aware of psychology and how human perception can be fooled, and of course the increasing desire to have 15 minutes of fame or 'go viral'. That's why science pretty much ignores anecdotal data until it is verifiably supported by actual hard evidence. If we compare this to a legal matter, we have a claim of murder. But.. there is no body. there is no footage or audio recording of the 'crime', despite advanced systems being present in the region. nobody is missing. there is no blood, nor evidence of a struggle, nor murder weapon. there is no motive. armed authorities were present in the region, but they did not initially report any threatening behaviour, let alone a murder, and their managers did not order them to intervene or take any significant action. Would this even get to court? Of course it wouldn't. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1200 Posted July 5, 2021 #152 Share Posted July 5, 2021 On 7/3/2021 at 10:26 PM, ChrLzs said: If we compare this to a legal matter, we have a claim of murder. But.. there is no body. there is no footage or audio recording of the 'crime', despite advanced systems being present in the region. nobody is missing. there is no blood, nor evidence of a struggle, nor murder weapon. there is no motive. armed authorities were present in the region, but they did not initially report any threatening behaviour, let alone a murder, and their managers did not order them to intervene or take any significant action. ... and the one and only suspect has a cast-iron alibi: he was being broadcast live on national news getting beaten up by a squad of cops while the non-crime wasn't happening. But hey! this is Texas! Guilty as charged! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassboy86 Posted July 5, 2021 #153 Share Posted July 5, 2021 On 6/29/2021 at 9:49 PM, the13bats said: Lighten up Francis, its not personal no need to get upset. There is nothing rude or condesending in questioning an extrodarnary "story" that has no evidence to back it up. And i wasnt talking about the other hillbillies or banjo players i was talking about astronomers both professinal and hobbyists who are always looking at all the sky, You say yourself it was twice as bright as the brightest star so if thats the case then this was not only seen by others it was documented, Why not post the date, time and location so it can be investagated further since you obviously didnt take that next step yourself or you would have posted those reports. As far as your claims it made some jump to light speed, that remains for you to prove. Not rude just part of discussion on an open forum. Well open forum or not, he was questioning people I don't know and haven't talked to. How tf would I know who saw it and who didnt. You want me to go around asking people everywhere I go. All I can say is I wish the camera I had included nightshot on it's bag of tricks. Very briefly I saw it out of focus but somewhat bright on the screen but I got too excited after trying for some time and missed the one snap shot I could have got and video wouldn't pick up **** but black sky. The vast majority of sightings have no physical evidence because what people are seeing are at the edge of the atmosphere or even in open space. So idk what evidence I could provide. My dumbass roomate said it was a plane and I told her planes that fly that high don't have reverse. Only two American fighter jets can reverse at nominal altitudes. And definitely not enough air that high to allow for anything but supersonic single direction flight, as long as we're using jets to do so. It's just a really silly and ignorant question. And he was clearly agitated that I made any assertion at all. I won't say it's aliens because idk, but I can say with confidence it isn't from our time if it's us, and if it IS Aliens, then what do they want, what's with all the apparent flight patterns that seem to indicate technological testing. It looked like it was trying to find a specific spot in space/outer atmosphere and when it found what it was looking for made a hyper-jump. Idk what else to tell you people. Just sharing my most recent encounter. For instance the one time I saw the Brown Mountain Lights it's fairly obvious that it's earth lights. Definitely no supernatural anything going on there. And not aliens either. I'm a critical thinker, every time I see one of these objects I take my time and one by one eliminate alternative factors that affect my interpretation. If it looks like a star and keeps a steady bearing and doesn't change speed, then I assume it's a man-made or a natural satellite crossing my particular visible area of sky. If it stops, moves multiple directions and lacks lights like a 747 or similar craft and is ABOVE the weather then I interpret that as possible a UAP. Otherwise Im usually quite skeptical, even though I've seen quite a few that were definitely not planes or satellites. Drones maybe, but those are typically below the weather. Never met one that could get enough lift in that thin air up there to sustain flight higher than maybe 10kft or so. The air gets REALLY thin at about 8kft and propeller flight cannot break the 10kft barrier without wings and forward momentum. The propellers are working at about 200% inefficiency when up high like the first AWACS planes. Hovering with propellers like a drone, would be in all probability IMPOSSIBLE. I have studied aerospace tech with the Air force for 7 years and a little bit privately as technologies have been introduced into the flight ecosystem in recent years and I like to stay on top of that. So I'm a bit of an expert on this sort of thing. And I have confidence in saying this was a most incredible UAP and one I personally will NOT forget until I die of Alzheimer's hopefully later than sooner. The fact my roommates saw it also and could not explain it as I also could not is proof enough that there was at least SOMETHING strange going on up there. I like to think it's us from the future. That at least gives me hope for the human race. If it is us, then surely humans make it a thousand years from now or so, at least and they're simply researching the past. Who knows, I sure don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted July 5, 2021 #154 Share Posted July 5, 2021 Allgedly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted July 6, 2021 #155 Share Posted July 6, 2021 6 hours ago, Brassboy86 said: Well open forum or not, he was questioning people I don't know and haven't talked to. How tf would I know who saw it and who didnt. You want me to go around asking people everywhere I go. All I can say is I wish the camera I had included nightshot on it's bag of tricks. Very briefly I saw it out of focus but somewhat bright on the screen but I got too excited after trying for some time and missed the one snap shot I could have got and video wouldn't pick up **** but black sky. The vast majority of sightings have no physical evidence because what people are seeing are at the edge of the atmosphere or even in open space. So idk what evidence I could provide. My dumbass roomate said it was a plane and I told her planes that fly that high don't have reverse. Only two American fighter jets can reverse at nominal altitudes. And definitely not enough air that high to allow for anything but supersonic single direction flight, as long as we're using jets to do so. It's just a really silly and ignorant question. And he was clearly agitated that I made any assertion at all. I won't say it's aliens because idk, but I can say with confidence it isn't from our time if it's us, and if it IS Aliens, then what do they want, what's with all the apparent flight patterns that seem to indicate technological testing. It looked like it was trying to find a specific spot in space/outer atmosphere and when it found what it was looking for made a hyper-jump. Idk what else to tell you people. Just sharing my most recent encounter. For instance the one time I saw the Brown Mountain Lights it's fairly obvious that it's earth lights. Definitely no supernatural anything going on there. And not aliens either. I'm a critical thinker, every time I see one of these objects I take my time and one by one eliminate alternative factors that affect my interpretation. If it looks like a star and keeps a steady bearing and doesn't change speed, then I assume it's a man-made or a natural satellite crossing my particular visible area of sky. If it stops, moves multiple directions and lacks lights like a 747 or similar craft and is ABOVE the weather then I interpret that as possible a UAP. Otherwise Im usually quite skeptical, even though I've seen quite a few that were definitely not planes or satellites. Drones maybe, but those are typically below the weather. Never met one that could get enough lift in that thin air up there to sustain flight higher than maybe 10kft or so. The air gets REALLY thin at about 8kft and propeller flight cannot break the 10kft barrier without wings and forward momentum. The propellers are working at about 200% inefficiency when up high like the first AWACS planes. Hovering with propellers like a drone, would be in all probability IMPOSSIBLE. I have studied aerospace tech with the Air force for 7 years and a little bit privately as technologies have been introduced into the flight ecosystem in recent years and I like to stay on top of that. So I'm a bit of an expert on this sort of thing. And I have confidence in saying this was a most incredible UAP and one I personally will NOT forget until I die of Alzheimer's hopefully later than sooner. The fact my roommates saw it also and could not explain it as I also could not is proof enough that there was at least SOMETHING strange going on up there. I like to think it's us from the future. That at least gives me hope for the human race. If it is us, then surely humans make it a thousand years from now or so, at least and they're simply researching the past. Who knows, I sure don't. OK. There are a couple of obvious questions that stick out like the proverbial dogs b******s. How did you estimate the altitude of what you observed? And of course there are the flow on questions of how you determined the distance covered; and, how you estimated the time in tenths of a second. Secondly, How can you interpret apparent movement as a searching and then making a hyper jump. The question was raised earlier - what are the characteristics of a hyper-jump? Following your grievance of another poster being rude and condescending - why would you present one of your roommates as "proof enough" of anything, when you, yourself, branded them as a dumbass? Lastly, what is 200 per cent inefficiency? Inefficiency would be the complement of efficiency, right? That is, it would be the amount of energy not output - or wasted - in a system. The answers to these questions are more relevant than whatever you've studied for however long. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted July 6, 2021 #156 Share Posted July 6, 2021 12 hours ago, Brassboy86 said: The air gets REALLY thin at about 8kft and propeller flight cannot break the 10kft barrier without wings and forward momentum. are you saying this object had no wings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1200 Posted July 6, 2021 #157 Share Posted July 6, 2021 On 7/5/2021 at 7:48 PM, Brassboy86 said: It looked like it was trying to find a specific spot in space/outer atmosphere and when it found what it was looking for made a hyper-jump. Is it possible... that you saw two different objects? I'm fairly sure I observed such a thing once - a fast-moving speck of light I thought was a shooting star, followed very soon by a slower reflective object moving a different direction which I supposed was a satellite. Another time I was driving at night and saw a bright object travelling fast across the sky. Intrigued, I pulled over for a better view, and I was astonished to see it moving a totally different direction... or so I thought. In pulling off the main road I had turned through a sharp angle, so all that happened was I was looking in the wrong direction. At night, with few visual references, it was an easy mistake to make. As for the 'hyper-jump' - you said the object vanished from view (for 10-15 seconds, then reappeared 'in about the same location' - post #68). If a satellite (which is only visible by reflecting sunlight) passes into the Earth's shadow it will vanish from view, apparently in mid-flight. Is it possible that's what you witnessed? You also said the object was very far away: 'it was between 80,000ft high to maybe the very edge of the atmosphere at around 120,000ft', which places it at a minimum 15 miles above you. At that range is it really possible to make accurate naked eye observations? 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted July 7, 2021 #158 Share Posted July 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Tom1200 said: Is it possible... that you saw two different objects? I'm fairly sure I observed such a thing once - a fast-moving speck of light I thought was a shooting star, followed very soon by a slower reflective object moving a different direction which I supposed was a satellite. Another time I was driving at night and saw a bright object travelling fast across the sky. Intrigued, I pulled over for a better view, and I was astonished to see it moving a totally different direction... or so I thought. In pulling off the main road I had turned through a sharp angle, so all that happened was I was looking in the wrong direction. At night, with few visual references, it was an easy mistake to make. As for the 'hyper-jump' - you said the object vanished from view (for 10-15 seconds, then reappeared 'in about the same location' - post #68). If a satellite (which is only visible by reflecting sunlight) passes into the Earth's shadow it will vanish from view, apparently in mid-flight. Is it possible that's what you witnessed? You also said the object was very far away: 'it was between 80,000ft high to maybe the very edge of the atmosphere at around 120,000ft', which places it at a minimum 15 miles above you. At that range is it really possible to make accurate naked eye observations? Ohhh you and you're rational reasoning. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted July 7, 2021 #159 Share Posted July 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Tom1200 said: Is it possible... that you saw two different objects? I'm fairly sure I observed such a thing once - a fast-moving speck of light I thought was a shooting star, followed very soon by a slower reflective object moving a different direction which I supposed was a satellite. Another time I was driving at night and saw a bright object travelling fast across the sky. Intrigued, I pulled over for a better view, and I was astonished to see it moving a totally different direction... or so I thought. In pulling off the main road I had turned through a sharp angle, so all that happened was I was looking in the wrong direction. At night, with few visual references, it was an easy mistake to make. As for the 'hyper-jump' - you said the object vanished from view (for 10-15 seconds, then reappeared 'in about the same location' - post #68). If a satellite (which is only visible by reflecting sunlight) passes into the Earth's shadow it will vanish from view, apparently in mid-flight. Is it possible that's what you witnessed? You also said the object was very far away: 'it was between 80,000ft high to maybe the very edge of the atmosphere at around 120,000ft', which places it at a minimum 15 miles above you. At that range is it really possible to make accurate naked eye observations? Based on the approximation in 1 Kings 7:23, I also wondered whether he actually saw two objects. I'm super interested to learn how "a bit of an expert on this sort of thing" makes these observations in the field. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrLzs Posted July 7, 2021 #160 Share Posted July 7, 2021 45 minutes ago, Golden Duck said: I'm super interested to learn how "a bit of an expert on this sort of thing" makes these observations in the field. Me too. There's a whole series of phrases like that one: I know what I saw. Are you suggesting I'm lying about my memories? I'm a professional I've got really good observation skills I'm a pilot / police officer / ... .... Interestingly, the first things I learnt in regard to observation (and memories) would stop any truly good observer from saying any of those, because: even initial perceptions are flawed in numerous ways. And when you add time.. those perceptions will move in the winds.. memories will happily alter to cater for new information or 'improvements' the word 'exaggerate' exists because people DO ... police and the military get b*****-all training on the intricacies of observation as a whole, and usually just get taught to identify vehicles/aircraft/tanks and the like psychological issues are VERY important, eg empathy, the desire to be part of a group, the desire for fame (good or bad)... In essence, observation (and interpretation) is incredibly complex and largely 'malleable' and untrustable - it really needs supporting evidence. I know this because.. I'm a professional. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassboy86 Posted July 10, 2021 #161 Share Posted July 10, 2021 On 7/6/2021 at 6:43 PM, Tom1200 said: Is it possible... that you saw two different objects? I'm fairly sure I observed such a thing once - a fast-moving speck of light I thought was a shooting star, followed very soon by a slower reflective object moving a different direction which I supposed was a satellite. Another time I was driving at night and saw a bright object travelling fast across the sky. Intrigued, I pulled over for a better view, and I was astonished to see it moving a totally different direction... or so I thought. In pulling off the main road I had turned through a sharp angle, so all that happened was I was looking in the wrong direction. At night, with few visual references, it was an easy mistake to make. As for the 'hyper-jump' - you said the object vanished from view (for 10-15 seconds, then reappeared 'in about the same location' - post #68). If a satellite (which is only visible by reflecting sunlight) passes into the Earth's shadow it will vanish from view, apparently in mid-flight. Is it possible that's what you witnessed? You also said the object was very far away: 'it was between 80,000ft high to maybe the very edge of the atmosphere at around 120,000ft', which places it at a minimum 15 miles above you. At that range is it really possible to make accurate naked eye observations? Well that all depends on the size and overall brightness of the object. The shockwave that the object emitted had to have been stadium sized or more, so the object also had to have been quite large. I never turned away or changed angles, hell I barely blinked out of Intrigue, so no I don't think it was two or more separate objects. It was clearly one object and when it disappeared and reappeared to reappear in nearly the same location it blinked out for 10ish seconds and when it reappeared the new location was (from my perspective) less than a thumb nail at full arm extension. So just guessing but it's arrival point was only a couple hundred meters from it's departure point or less, maybe tens of meters but definitely not far enough to think it was more than one object, one leaving and another arriving virtually in tandem, but the possibility certainly exists even if it didn't appear that way. As for it passing the Earth's shadow or any shadow, that's laughable. Unless it passed behind another stellar/high altitude object that's both invisible yet still casts a shadow, idk what to tell ya buddy. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but that doesn't ring of plausibility in the least. Especially considering what I witnessed was occupying a pretty small portion of the sky and was not transversing large swaths of space, but rather stayed in a few miles square area by any estimation, maybe 6-7 miles square of sky. And did I mention it was considerably brighter than the stars that occupied it's background. So much so as it overlapped/superimposed stars behind it, they were simply replaced momentarily by this extremely bright object. Like Ive said before, I won't go so far as claiming aliens are responsible, but this object showed clear signs of being under intelligent control and was obviously not a natural phenomenon of any current understanding, not to say it COULDN'T. Be natural, according to Applewhite Theorem, if it happens more than once or with regularity, then it could be natural. So I'm certainly open to that possibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassboy86 Posted July 10, 2021 #162 Share Posted July 10, 2021 On 7/6/2021 at 3:17 AM, Dejarma said: are you saying this object had no wings? No, I'm saying winged flight has to follow some rules, all predicated on the air density. And at that altitude, winged flight must be in a single vector and very fast, often supersonic to stay aloft. This was moving backwards forwards, stopped several times and was definitely NOT going one direction the entire time nor was it moving very fast every time it moved, sometimes it's speed was VERY slow. So I'm saying I didnt observe wings, because it was too far away to discern, but logically, wings would be a superfluous or even detrimental ornament on a craft making these kinds of maneuvers. So I suppose yes, I'm saying it did not have wings, if it did they were retracted and out of the way to not get torn off from the high velocity of opposing wind directions, if it was indeed within any part of the atmosphere. Obviously outside the atmosphere, wings would just be fragile appendages just asking to be damaged by small objects in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy333 Posted July 10, 2021 #163 Share Posted July 10, 2021 On 6/25/2021 at 6:35 PM, papageorge1 said: It seems to strongly suggest aliens but the writers of the report seem to have been told not to use that word. The government never will confess to the public what they know about UFOs and aliens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1200 Posted July 10, 2021 #164 Share Posted July 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Brassboy86 said: As for it passing the Earth's shadow or any shadow, that's laughable. Unless it passed behind another stellar/high altitude object that's both invisible yet still casts a shadow, idk what to tell ya buddy. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but that doesn't ring of plausibility in the least. Just remind me - what are you an expert in? You do know that satellites orbit the Earth, right? And they don't shine or produce light of their own? And the Earth is a moderately big object which casts a roughly Earth-sized shadow? 2 hours ago, Brassboy86 said: The shockwave that the object emitted had to have been stadium sized or more, so the object also had to have been quite large. Not sure I see the absolute certainty of the correlation between size and effect. = I'm not here calling you names. I'm not saying I don't believe a word you're saying. It's really just a crying shame that you've seen 45-50 UAPs (post #68) including ones that last 15 seconds or more (#68) but you haven't managed to capture any imagery to share your experiences with others. I appreciate they are usually fleeting experiences, but heck - if I'd seen 45-50 around here I'd be going out at night 100% prepared to video the sky immediately. In fact, if I thought the skies here were jam-packed with warp-driving impossible technology I might even invest in a $100 home security camera and leave it trained on the sky. I might even talk to my neighbours. I wouldn't just assume (#89, #90) that they are incapable of intelligently discussing something everybody saw. In fact, if I thought the skies here were jam-packed with warp-driving impossible technology I might try to contact other people as well, such as astronomers, civil aviation, the military; you know - people who might also have noticed something odd and who might actually have collected evidence. I wouldn't assume it's aliens because that makes no sense to me. I've articulated elsewhere the illogicality of the whole concept of aliens travelling vast distances across space, just to flit around in our atmosphere being vague and mysterious. But something that makes even less sense is the notion that time-travelling humans have come back from the future, just to flit around in our atmosphere being vague and mysterious. 4 hours ago, Brassboy86 said: This was moving backwards forwards, stopped several times and was definitely NOT going one direction the entire time nor was it moving very fast every time it moved, sometimes it's speed was VERY slow. And you could tell all this from a distance of at least 15 miles? In fact you're confident enough in your powers of observation to state "just guessing but it's arrival point was only a couple hundred meters from it's departure point or less, maybe tens of meters" while this object was missing from a black sky for 10-15 seconds. 15 miles away. Sorry, but I don't accept this level of precision is based on credible observations. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted July 10, 2021 #165 Share Posted July 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Tom1200 said: Just remind me - what are you an expert in? You do know that satellites orbit the Earth, right? And they don't shine or produce light of their own? And the Earth is a moderately big object which casts a roughly Earth-sized shadow? Not sure I see the absolute certainty of the correlation between size and effect. = I'm not here calling you names. I'm not saying I don't believe a word you're saying. It's really just a crying shame that you've seen 45-50 UAPs (post #68) including ones that last 15 seconds or more (#68) but you haven't managed to capture any imagery to share your experiences with others. I appreciate they are usually fleeting experiences, but heck - if I'd seen 45-50 around here I'd be going out at night 100% prepared to video the sky immediately. In fact, if I thought the skies here were jam-packed with warp-driving impossible technology I might even invest in a $100 home security camera and leave it trained on the sky. I might even talk to my neighbours. I wouldn't just assume (#89, #90) that they are incapable of intelligently discussing something everybody saw. In fact, if I thought the skies here were jam-packed with warp-driving impossible technology I might try to contact other people as well, such as astronomers, civil aviation, the military; you know - people who might also have noticed something odd and who might actually have collected evidence. I wouldn't assume it's aliens because that makes no sense to me. I've articulated elsewhere the illogicality of the whole concept of aliens travelling vast distances across space, just to flit around in our atmosphere being vague and mysterious. But something that makes even less sense is the notion that time-travelling humans have come back from the future, just to flit around in our atmosphere being vague and mysterious. And you could tell all this from a distance of at least 15 miles? In fact you're confident enough in your powers of observation to state "just guessing but it's arrival point was only a couple hundred meters from it's departure point or less, maybe tens of meters" while this object was missing from a black sky for 10-15 seconds. 15 miles away. Sorry, but I don't accept this level of precision is based on credible observations. The thumb subtends about two degrees of arc. The details literally do not add up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted July 10, 2021 #166 Share Posted July 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Brandy333 said: The government never will confess to the public what they know about UFOs and aliens. I agree, not at this time. I think however this report is a snail paced move to letting us know at least something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrLzs Posted July 11, 2021 #167 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) Quote As for it passing the Earth's shadow or any shadow, that's laughable. Unless it passed behind another stellar/high altitude object that's both invisible yet still casts a shadow - WRONG. Brassboy, you rather embarrassingly lost all credibility when you offered up that utter bull excrement - you showed you've never observed satellites at all. We do assume some basic familiarity with topics... If you don't know the topic at all (which you proved above), don't just make **** up - ASK questions. You might even learn stuff. You should start on that journey by reading Tom1200's post over and over until you get it. Edited July 11, 2021 by ChrLzs 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted July 11, 2021 #168 Share Posted July 11, 2021 On 7/5/2021 at 8:48 PM, Brassboy86 said: The air gets REALLY thin at about 8kft and propeller flight cannot break the 10kft barrier without wings and forward momentum. The propellers are working at about 200% inefficiency when up high like the first AWACS planes. Hovering with propellers like a drone, would be in all probability IMPOSSIBLE. Quote On May 14th, 2005 at 7.08 AM (local time), a serial Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 piloted by the Airbus Helicopters X-test pilot Didier Delsalle, landed at 8,850 meters (29,035ft) on the top of the Mount Everest (Kingdom of Nepal). It wass also a world altitude takeoff record. It has been validated by the World Air Sports Federation. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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