"I think, therefore I am"

[XenoFish]

Just now, Guyver said:

We think it’s temporary.  The universe is supposedly around 14 billion years old and no one knows what it was like before that point.  14 billion years is a really really long time.

And no one will be around to observe it. 

[Horta]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

I recently read an article stating that some scientists consider the universe to be conscious.  If this is true, then maybe things we do actually matter whether we become dust or not.  
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a36329671/is-the-universe-conscious/

It sounds like a silly concept, but physical matter must at least have the potential for being conscious (although defining that term can be difficult), as our nervous systems are made of it. So in that sense, even if it leads to nothing, it's good that at least some academics are researching such possibilities.

Defining the term "consciousness" is quite a hurdle to begin with it seems. The definitions given by many philosophers are full of assumptions and descriptions of what is likely to only be an illusion to begin with.

[Horta]

 

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

We exist for no reason, no purpose or point to it all.

That is probably true, though we create our own purpose (regardless that it might be subjective and not so relevant in the greater scheme of things). How could it be any other way? It's no great revelation nor is it big deal, why should there be a point to it all? Why should anyone care? 

Quote

Nothing we do really matters.

Whether something is considered to "matter" is a subjective point of view that is only relevant to humans (as far as we know) and so apart from that, doesn't exist in any objective sense to begin with. The idea that it should be more than this (in the grand scheme of things) is only human vanity anyway and not something most people care about.

An alternate view is that everything matters, as it all impacts the universe and has bearing on its future state, no matter how small. 

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Horta said:

An alternate view is that everything matters, as it all impacts the universe and has bearing on its future state, no matter how small. 

I don't see it that way. There is nothing we can do that changes the universe. We're not creating some cosmic butterfly effect. 

Quote

That is probably true, though we create our own purpose (regardless that it might be subjective and not so relevant in the greater scheme of things). How could it be any other way? It's no great revelation nor is it big deal, why should there be a point to it all? Why should anyone care? 

Our purpose is always a dead end. Consider how you and a few others have pointed out. We are automated meat robots with no power to create or choose anything. Which makes our lives even more insignificant. Because no matter what we think we choose to do or how we choose to define our lives, we never made a single choice at all. 

I don't know which is more depressing. 

Being a meat robot without a shred of causal power or that nothing matters to begin with. 

Might as well just say god did it and we're just following the script.

[Horta]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't see it that way. There is nothing we can do that changes the universe. We're not creating some cosmic butterfly effect. 

Our purpose is always a dead end. Consider how you and a few others have pointed out. We are automated meat robots with no power to create or choose anything. Which makes our lives even more insignificant. Because no matter what we think we choose to do or how we choose to define our lives, we never made a single choice at all. 

That's fair enough Xeno, we all see things in our own way. It seems a fact that everything that happens in our universe has its effects. This seems unavoidable.

The "free will" problem seems to be something that people either "get" or they don't. The same with what it implies. In the end the very term is incoherent and meaningless (the way most people assume it to be) and amounts to "fairy dust". That doesn't imply "predestination" or futility. We still have to think things through and act, whether choices are ultimately real or not, it's possible to change and even improve. Free will isn't required for this. Machines can now do this, if in a less generalised way (obviously without free will). There are obviously emotions and ways of being that are worthwhile, regardless that we give ourselves too much credit as to their ultimate source. 

If you were born with normal functioning brain and intelligence along with a decent formative environment, it seems important to do this, as not everyone is so lucky. 

That we need to believe we are the ultimate cause of all of this to feel good about ourselves is strange, unsupported, and amounts to hubris and vanity.

It has implications that are important in specific ways, though not so much for people in the normal day to day. As the proximal cause of what people do they are generally responsible. It is that extra layer of moral responsibility that seems problematic. While natural to humans, it only breeds hatred and more pain. It seems to be a vestige of religion, it certainly isn't based on reality or science.

Quote

I don't know which is more depressing. 

Being a meat robot without a shred of causal power or that nothing matters to begin with. 

Might as well just say god did it and we're just following the script.

It's a shame you find it all depressing. Generally the people that have really researched and gained a level of understanding find the opposite. It's the most fascinating thing of all.

It can be fun being a meat robot lol (well not all the time obviously) and anyway, what choice do we have?

[Guyver]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:20 PM, closed for business said:

I came, I saw, and I haven’t left yet

Brilliant.

[Guyver]

I came, I saw, I haven’t left yet, and I’m not ready to go right now. I need a little more time in this pressure cooker of insanity.

[Horta]

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

(everyones favourite poet) Horace.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Horta
spelling lol.

[+and-then]

" I AM"

[XenoFish]

6 hours ago, Horta said:

That's fair enough Xeno, we all see things in our own way. It seems a fact that everything that happens in our universe has its effects. This seems unavoidable.

The "free will" problem seems to be something that people either "get" or they don't. The same with what it implies. In the end the very term is incoherent and meaningless (the way most people assume it to be) and amounts to "fairy dust". That doesn't imply "predestination" or futility. We still have to think things through and act, whether choices are ultimately real or not, it's possible to change and even improve. Free will isn't required for this. Machines can now do this, if in a less generalised way (obviously without free will). There are obviously emotions and ways of being that are worthwhile, regardless that we give ourselves too much credit as to their ultimate source. 

If you were born with normal functioning brain and intelligence along with a decent formative environment, it seems important to do this, as not everyone is so lucky. 

That we need to believe we are the ultimate cause of all of this to feel good about ourselves is strange, unsupported, and amounts to hubris and vanity.

It has implications that are important in specific ways, though not so much for people in the normal day to day. As the proximal cause of what people do they are generally responsible. It is that extra layer of moral responsibility that seems problematic. While natural to humans, it only breeds hatred and more pain. It seems to be a vestige of religion, it certainly isn't based on reality or science.

It's a shame you find it all depressing. Generally the people that have really researched and gained a level of understanding find the opposite. It's the most fascinating thing of all.

It can be fun being a meat robot lol (well not all the time obviously) and anyway, what choice do we have?

You'll have to forgive me for being an idiot who likes the illusion of choice. 

[Horta]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You'll have to forgive me for being an idiot who likes the illusion of choice. 

Forgiven.

[XenoFish]

I know that many of you like to shoot 'free Will's in the foot. Personally I like 'free choice' myself. I have to be honest, the illusion/delusion of choice is the only thing keeping me alive. Without that capacity I see no reason to exist. That whole depressing meat robot problem. 

For just myself knowing/believing that I can create a personal intentional change in my life makes things so much better. Without such a concept I can't help but wonder why I shouldn't just run off instinct and impulse. 

So I guess I'm weak. I'll own up to that. I like the idea of choosing my life's course, not just reacting to it. 

I see it as Choice to Habit to Automatic. 

Without the capacity to choose life is meaningless.

With the capacity to choose life is meaningful.

Morning rant is over, have a good day everyone.

[Horta]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I know that many of you like to shoot 'free Will's in the foot. Personally I like 'free choice' myself. I have to be honest, the illusion/delusion of choice is the only thing keeping me alive. Without that capacity I see no reason to exist. That whole depressing meat robot problem. 

For just myself knowing/believing that I can create a personal intentional change in my life makes things so much better. Without such a concept I can't help but wonder why I shouldn't just run off instinct and impulse. 

So I guess I'm weak. I'll own up to that. I like the idea of choosing my life's course, not just reacting to it. 

I see it as Choice to Habit to Automatic. 

Without the capacity to choose life is meaningless.

With the capacity to choose life is meaningful.

Morning rant is over, have a good day everyone.

Respectfully Xeno, I'm not sure if you're confusing this with fatalism. They are different things. You still have to practice to be a violinist (or whatever), the universe won't just bestow it on you. You won't love anyone less because of it. There are still some wonderful things in this world and joy to be had in amongst the nonsense. You will always be confronted with decisions to ponder. That these decisions will ultimately be based on things such as the way the brain you inherited works, your intelligence (emotional and intellectual), environment influences (particularly formative) and past experience isn't so unreasonable is it? Seems like common sense?

If it didn't bother you in the past, why now? Einstein claimed this revelation helped him immensely and caused him to be more compassionate and understanding towards others. Also kept him grounded regarding his achievements. It can be a healthy thing.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Horta

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, Horta said:

Respectfully Xeno, I'm not sure if you're confusing this with fatalism. They are different things. You still have to practice to be a violinist (or whatever), the universe won't just bestow it on you. You won't love anyone less because of it. There are still some wonderful things in this world and joy to be had in amongst the nonsense. You will always be confronted with decisions to ponder.

If it didn't bother you in the past, why now? Einstein claimed this revelation helped him immensely and caused him to be more compassionate and understanding towards others. Also kept him grounded regarding his achievements. It can be a healthy thing.

I'm more aware of it now. As they say: ignorance is bliss. 

It's one of the reasons I have an inner conflict with this stuff.

At one point around 2010 I determined that religion like magic was just a way of intentionally programming our subjective reality. That thought trail lead me to things I didn't like, though for the most part I accepted. 

Guess I'm too attached to self or the concept of self. Even though many of my thought experiments have shown that the "I" now wouldn't be the "I' of a different time line. So I'm stuck with being someone or just something. 

Guess I'm just lying to myself in order to nor overcome another hurdle in life.

[Horta]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm more aware of it now. As they say: ignorance is bliss. 

It's one of the reasons I have an inner conflict with this stuff.

At one point around 2010 I determined that religion like magic was just a way of intentionally programming our subjective reality. That thought trail lead me to things I didn't like, though for the most part I accepted. 

Guess I'm too attached to self or the concept of self. Even though many of my thought experiments have shown that the "I" now wouldn't be the "I' of a different time line. So I'm stuck with being someone or just something. 

Guess I'm just lying to myself in order to nor overcome another hurdle in life.

Sorry Xeno, I edited the post after you quoted. Roughly, this was added.

"You will always have decisions to ponder. That these decisions will be based on the way the brain you inherited works, your intelligence (emotional and intellectual), influences from your environment (especially formative) and what you have gained in past experience doesn't seem so unrealistic?"

Most people would agree with that^ ? Yet nowhere does it require free will.

I think you are being self critically honest and have had a tough time for various reasons. I'm not really trying to be an ******* or make anyone depressed (certainly feel like one at times though) and the last thing I want is to cause you to feel down. I guess it doesn't affect me this way (I marvel at it all) and so it's easy to forget others can be affected by the idea.

[XenoFish]

24 minutes ago, Horta said:

Sorry Xeno, I edited the post after you quoted. Roughly, this was added.

"You will always have decisions to ponder. That these decisions will be based on the way the brain you inherited works, your intelligence (emotional and intellectual), influences from your environment (especially formative) and what you have gained in past experience doesn't seem so unrealistic?"

Most people would agree with that^ ? Yet nowhere does it require free will.

I think you are being self critically honest and have had a tough time for various reasons. I'm not really trying to be an ******* or make anyone depressed (certainly feel like one at times though) and the last thing I want is to cause you to feel down. I guess it doesn't affect me this way (I marvel at it all) and so it's easy to forget others can be affected by the idea.

I hold no grudge. I'm stuck right between.

Nothing matters

And 

Nothing matters

It's like being on the end of "I'm going to die anyway, why am I take this life so damn serious?"

[Guyver]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It's like being on the end of "I'm going to die anyway, why am I take this life so damn serious?"

I know that the Matrix is a sci fi movie.  It’s not real.  Yet, something like that in a general sense is not out of the question in my mind, due to many subtle hints and observations I have made in my own life….I am now fully entertaining the notion that life is actually an illusion of some sort.

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Guyver said:

the notion that life is actually an illusion of some sort.

I sometimes wonder if it's just a very lucid dream. 

[Guyver]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I sometimes wonder if it's just a very lucid dream. 

I was watching “UFO’s Unclassified” with Josh Gates last night, and I thought they did a good job with the facts and a fair job on the presentation right up until they brought in the “aliens” part.  You know, these anomalies can be explained by visitors from another planet.   However, luckily, before that part this scientist put up a model of the universe.  What many of things we see as stars actually are, are galaxies.  There are trillions of galaxies and within them billions of stars.  We are talking about distances so vast as we recon distance, that it’s almost unbelievable.  So, is there life out there besides us?  Probably.  But what kind of life?  The kind of life that could pick us out from a million trillion miles away and then come on a secret visit?  
 

Yeah.  I don’t think so.

[Guyver]

Certainly there is an explanation, but i don’t think it’s aliens.  

[8th_wall]

I think therefore I am.

There is a verb (action, kinetic, force, change (I thinking)) therefore there is that which does, a noun (I am), that has the adjective quality of subjective wholeness (I thinking == I am, a neat Trinity since the speaker is an I that isn't present in the word, which is what is described as the adjective here).  There are three Is.  I think, the verb I, and I am, the noun I, with the unspoken adjective of subjective selfhood, the I that is being described in the flesh.

Existence is inclusive of reality, reality is not necessarily inclusive of existence, which could be inclusive of phenomenological errors of perception, for example, that nevertheless characterises all of what is (existence).

I had the thought that God does not bother Himself with existence, only with reality.  God isn't a creator, I thought, he's a maker.  He made reality, and, us a posteriori beings in his image, we fumble around with existence, with which he has nothing to do with since it doesn't fundamentally exist past what is reality, even if it is inclusive of reality.  I think the mind is a thing of existence that doesn't actually exist.  To be in synchronicity with reality is to be perfectly poised between order and chaos, as Jordan B. Peterson might suppose, which is exactly where we want to be and what we want to be doing all of the time if we had our way.  It is meaning, meaning lived, where questions of the meaning of life ceases to make sense when the meaning is life and life is meaning.

[lightly]

6 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I think therefore I am.

     perfectly poised between order and chaos, 

   Interesting ^     I guess ya can't have one without the other?     Like..Creation and Destruction. .two halves of the whole?

the very little l know about sub-atomic structure..sounds like a balance between creation and destruction..order and chaos?

Both the cause and the source .

[Tiggs]

On 7/1/2021 at 3:57 AM, XenoFish said:

We are automated meat robots with no power to create or choose anything.

A clockwork universe with sufficient complexity is indistinguishable from a universe where free will exists.

So you're free to choose whichever version you prefer.

Or let the clockwork decide for you. Whichever.

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Tiggs said:

A clockwork universe with sufficient complexity is indistinguishable from a universe where free will exists.

So you're free to choose whichever version you prefer.

Or let the clockwork decide for you. Whichever.

 

I just wonder what is the point? I mean we exist and die. There really isn't a point at all. Either choice is equally meaningless.

[Tiggs]

36 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I just wonder what is the point? I mean we exist and die. There really isn't a point at all. Either choice is equally meaningless.

Truth is -- if there's a point to any of this, it's above my paygrade.

Maybe there isn't a point to any of this, and maybe that's okay.

Maybe just bearing witness is enough.

For, as the great philosopher once said "...all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather."