lightly Posted August 22, 2021 #101 Share Posted August 22, 2021 On July 1, 2021 at 8:24 AM, XenoFish said: I hold no grudge. I'm stuck right between. Nothing matters And Nothing matters It's like being on the end of "I'm going to die anyway, why am I take this life so damn serious?" Man alive X ! I don't know if it's Serious or not, but Life is about Living, not Dying. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 13, 2021 #102 Share Posted September 13, 2021 I am, ergo I can think . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 13, 2021 #103 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 hours ago, Mr Walker said: I am, ergo I can think . Clever, but not true. A brick is, but it doesn’t think. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted September 13, 2021 #104 Share Posted September 13, 2021 On 6/28/2021 at 10:59 AM, Saru said: Philosopher René Descartes famously said Cogito, ergo sum, which translates to "I think, therefore I am". If you had to sum up the concept of existence in one sentence, what would it be ? Only one thing is beyond doubting for me. I am aware, therefore Awareness is. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 13, 2021 #105 Share Posted September 13, 2021 I’m hungry ergo I eat 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 14, 2021 #106 Share Posted September 14, 2021 9 hours ago, Guyver said: Clever, but not true. A brick is, but it doesn’t think. It is much deeper than that IMO Descartes got it the wrong way around, lacking a modern understanding of the human mind and evolution Ie we don't exist because we think, we think because we exist No; a brick doesn't think but the reference was to me (and to humans in general) Descartes thought he only way we could truly know anything was through experience (and in a sense he was right ) ie we can be sure we exist because we are self aware BUT modern science and psychology etc allows us to know how and why we think and how we evolved to do so. Once we understood evolution we knew that matter (The physical) came first and thought was a later product This allows us to examine the proposition more carefully. if we know we are alive because we think then we can also know via that thought that we think only because we are alive AND have evolved the ability to become self aware I can only think because i exist, and humans have evolved this level of thinking over ,millions of years. It is my existence which is the primary point Without my brain, I would not exist or be able to think Thus thought flows form body, not body from thought. Thinking evolves from my body /brain's existence and capacity, ergo I am, and (only) therefore. am I capable of thinking. If i was not who i am, I wouldn't be able to think 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 14, 2021 #107 Share Posted September 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: It is much deeper than that IMO Descartes got it the wrong way around, lacking a modern understanding of the human mind and evolution Ie we don't exist because we think, we think because we exist No; a brick doesn't think but the reference was to me (and to humans in general) Descartes thought he only way we could truly know anything was through experience (and in a sense he was right ) ie we can be sure we exist because we are self aware BUT modern science and psychology etc allows us to know how and why we think and how we evolved to do so. Once we understood evolution we knew that matter (The physical) came first and thought was a later product This allows us to examine the proposition more carefully. if we know we are alive because we think then we can also know via that thought that we think only because we are alive AND have evolved the ability to become self aware I can only think because i exist, and humans have evolved this level of thinking over ,millions of years. It is my existence which is the primary point Without my brain, I would not exist or be able to think Thus thought flows form body, not body from thought. Thinking evolves from my body /brain's existence and capacity, ergo I am, and (only) therefore. am I capable of thinking. If i was not who i am, I wouldn't be able to think Hi Walker Thinking involves a select group and is not unique to everything that exists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 14, 2021 #108 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: It is much deeper than that IMO Descartes got it the wrong way around, lacking a modern understanding of the human mind and evolution Ie we don't exist because we think, we think because we exist No; a brick doesn't think but the reference was to me (and to humans in general) Descartes thought he only way we could truly know anything was through experience (and in a sense he was right ) ie we can be sure we exist because we are self aware BUT modern science and psychology etc allows us to know how and why we think and how we evolved to do so. Once we understood evolution we knew that matter (The physical) came first and thought was a later product This allows us to examine the proposition more carefully. if we know we are alive because we think then we can also know via that thought that we think only because we are alive AND have evolved the ability to become self aware I can only think because i exist, and humans have evolved this level of thinking over ,millions of years. It is my existence which is the primary point Without my brain, I would not exist or be able to think Thus thought flows form body, not body from thought. Thinking evolves from my body /brain's existence and capacity, ergo I am, and (only) therefore. am I capable of thinking. If i was not who i am, I wouldn't be able to think Including @Guyver in case interested. No, No, and no! This is completely erroneous. MW while your opinion is duly noted it isn’t based on Descartes’ philosophy at all, his approach to epistemology is Rationalism. According to Descartes the sense are flawed in a thorough reading of Meditations 1, 2, and 3 it outlines his argument. In M1 he is skeptical about the senses, in M2 he makes the claim “ I can know I exist” and in M3 he gains knowledge about the external world. Why? Think about an analogy of building a house in M1, we have no rational foundation for our claims about the world; in M2, he discovers the foundation (I think therefore I am); in M3, he uses that foundation to make claims about the external world. One must read past M1 to get this, Rationalism is the idea that we gain knowledge via reason, not sense experience. According to Descartes, the senses are flawed. For Descartes, the issue is not whether we can know anything at all, but, whether we can claim to know anything with absolute certainty. Edited September 14, 2021 by Sherapy 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 14, 2021 #109 Share Posted September 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Mr Walker said: It is much deeper than that IMO Descartes got it the wrong way around, lacking a modern understanding of the human mind and evolution Ie we don't exist because we think, we think because we exist No; a brick doesn't think but the reference was to me (and to humans in general) Descartes thought he only way we could truly know anything was through experience (and in a sense he was right ) ie we can be sure we exist because we are self aware BUT modern science and psychology etc allows us to know how and why we think and how we evolved to do so. Once we understood evolution we knew that matter (The physical) came first and thought was a later product This allows us to examine the proposition more carefully. if we know we are alive because we think then we can also know via that thought that we think only because we are alive AND have evolved the ability to become self aware I can only think because i exist, and humans have evolved this level of thinking over ,millions of years. It is my existence which is the primary point Without my brain, I would not exist or be able to think Thus thought flows form body, not body from thought. Thinking evolves from my body /brain's existence and capacity, ergo I am, and (only) therefore. am I capable of thinking. If i was not who i am, I wouldn't be able to think You just weasel your way around everything, don’t you? I mean, you are just exasperating. Whatever, peace be with you. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted September 14, 2021 #110 Share Posted September 14, 2021 Interesting and diverse. I had always considered Descartes's "I am" more in the Biblical sense of God saying "I am"; a simple phrase pregnant with possibility and devoid of limits. "I am" transcends existence and affirms self awareness. Animals and plants exist and think. They process information and make choices geared toward survival. We happen to be pretty good at it. We store useful data and have complex algorithms to process that data to into instructions for survival.. I don't know how it happened, but somewhere along the line we started thinking about thinking, generated an internal life and personality. Until there is self awareness, I don't think there is an I. So I'll try this one liner. I am aware, therefore possibilities multiply. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 14, 2021 #111 Share Posted September 14, 2021 5 hours ago, Guyver said: You just weasel your way around everything, don’t you? I mean, you are just exasperating. Whatever, peace be with you. LOl This is an idea i have been kicking around since childhood. Presenting a difernt coherent philosophical argument is not weasling although it is fun Plus I think we have to be careful accepting without question the ideas of people from centuries ago as modern theory. We wouldn't accept 17C medicine uncritically as the latest thing so why uncritically accept the philosophical statements of a 17th century philosopher as the l end point of philosophy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 14, 2021 #112 Share Posted September 14, 2021 9 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Interesting and diverse. I had always considered Descartes's "I am" more in the Biblical sense of God saying "I am"; a simple phrase pregnant with possibility and devoid of limits. "I am" transcends existence and affirms self awareness. Animals and plants exist and think. They process information and make choices geared toward survival. We happen to be pretty good at it. We store useful data and have complex algorithms to process that data to into instructions for survival.. I don't know how it happened, but somewhere along the line we started thinking about thinking, generated an internal life and personality. Until there is self awareness, I don't think there is an I. So I'll try this one liner. I am aware, therefore possibilities multiply. I like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 14, 2021 #113 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) I drink, therefore, I'm drunk. Edited September 14, 2021 by XenoFish 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 14, 2021 #114 Share Posted September 14, 2021 16 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Interesting and diverse. I had always considered Descartes's "I am" more in the Biblical sense of God saying "I am"; a simple phrase pregnant with possibility and devoid of limits. "I am" transcends existence and affirms self awareness. Animals and plants exist and think. They process information and make choices geared toward survival. We happen to be pretty good at it. We store useful data and have complex algorithms to process that data to into instructions for survival.. I don't know how it happened, but somewhere along the line we started thinking about thinking, generated an internal life and personality. Until there is self awareness, I don't think there is an I. So I'll try this one liner. I am aware, therefore possibilities multiply. Humans are the only earth creatures who can phrase the thought. "I am" If you (generic) don't know how and why we came to be able to do this, the basic premise might be, "Well i can think, and this proves I am alive/existing " However, with more knowledge. we can "know " that many things live/exist but don't have our awareness. We can understand how and why we have the abilty to phrase that question, and we can understand that existence is not dependent on abilty to be ware of existence. ie reality is not dependent on our perception of it . Ie, again, you could exist without being able to think. Most plants and animals exist without the abilty to "think," and certainty a brick does We can have the same certainty of the brick's existence, as we can of our own, once we understand the nature of reality and our perception of i, and we can know the brick exists, even though it has no awareness of it's own existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted October 7, 2021 #115 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 6/28/2021 at 6:59 PM, Saru said: Philosopher René Descartes famously said Cogito, ergo sum, which translates to "I think, therefore I am". If you had to sum up the concept of existence in one sentence, what would it be ? I AM THAT I AM Pure Presence Without thought Only awareness The above quote from Descartes makes more sense with, "I am, therefore I think." Lets not put the horse before the cart likey.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted October 7, 2021 #116 Share Posted October 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said: I AM THAT I AM 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Phantom_Stranger Posted October 7, 2021 #117 Share Posted October 7, 2021 Ahhhh that's pretty funny tbh. I thought this was a play on the name of God too. If I would have to come up with another way it would be, "I act, therefore I am," or, "I do, therefore I am." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted October 7, 2021 #118 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 6:20 PM, lightly said: Man alive X ! I don't know if it's Serious or not, but Life is about Living, not Dying. ? Spot-on.. There is no such thing as death. XFish might as well have said, I am going to live, so why not live happily, with joy and love? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted October 7, 2021 #119 Share Posted October 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Green Lion said: Ahhhh that's pretty funny tbh. I thought this was a play on the name of God too. If I would have to come up with another way it would be, "I act, therefore I am," or, "I do, therefore I am." Yet one may not act, or think, and yet still be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted October 7, 2021 #120 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 7:38 AM, Tatetopa said: Interesting and diverse. I had always considered Descartes's "I am" more in the Biblical sense of God saying "I am"; a simple phrase pregnant with possibility and devoid of limits. "I am" transcends existence and affirms self awareness. Animals and plants exist and think. They process information and make choices geared toward survival. We happen to be pretty good at it. We store useful data and have complex algorithms to process that data to into instructions for survival.. I don't know how it happened, but somewhere along the line we started thinking about thinking, generated an internal life and personality. Until there is self awareness, I don't think there is an I. So I'll try this one liner. I am aware, therefore possibilities multiply. When one is simply aware, without the constant thought stream of the ego, then the presence of GOD is felt for oneself, and one is being worked upon, to receive a greater level of consciousness, intuition, wisdom and power. And so yes, the possibilities do multiply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lying Posted October 7, 2021 #121 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 9/13/2021 at 7:32 PM, Mr Walker said: I am, ergo I can think . Because I am thinking, I know I am alive. Cognito ergo sum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted October 7, 2021 #122 Share Posted October 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Hugh Mungus said: Because I am thinking, I know I am alive. Cognito ergo sum So what happens when you stop thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted October 7, 2021 #123 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On September 14, 2021 at 1:12 PM, XenoFish said: I drink, therefore, I'm drunk. I quit drinking, therefore, I can think. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted October 7, 2021 #124 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On September 14, 2021 at 12:29 PM, Sherapy said: I like this. I like your new picture bright eyes ! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 8, 2021 #125 Share Posted October 8, 2021 1 hour ago, lightly said: I like your new picture bright eyes ! Awww, thank you lightly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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