Russia is the new Daddy

[Duke Wellington]

At todays Moscow air show Russian unveiled to the world its 5th gen stealth fighter:

(34) Russia unveils next-generation stealth fighter jet 'The Checkmate' | AFP - YouTube

This will be why the US has already said they will phase out the F22 by 2030. So what is so special about Russians jet? Well there are two things:

F22 Raptor - Hyped up as a super brilliant dogfighter with its Cobra manoeuvre, the Americans dont like anybody pointing out it its thrust vector nozzles only go up and down. Thats right, it only has vertical thrust vectoring. So while it can do its Cobra manoeuvre better than all other jets, it only has the one Cobra manoeuvre. The new Russian jet has 360 degree thrust vectoring so it can do them all.

Air Intake Duct - On the F22 this returns the largest radar signature on the jet. Its not the duct itself, its the gap between the duct and the fuselage. The Americans have never figured out how to remove that gap because doing so causes their aircraft to stall during thrust vectoring. The new Russian jets solves it. By moving it under the aircraft, simple but effective. It means the Russian jet is more stealthy that the F22.

With the above two hence the name `checkmate`

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[Tatetopa]

Payback. Finally, an opportunity for us to steal technology from somebody else.  Its about time.

[+OverSword]

For decades now the American ordinance is what wins the fights.  all opposing planes need to do is to be able to fire before the Russians, and from what I've read we still can.

  

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

This will be why the US has already said they will phase out the F22 by 2030. So what is so special about Russians jet? Well there are two things:

F22 Raptor - Hyped up as a super brilliant dogfighter with its Cobra manoeuvre, the Americans dont like anybody pointing out it its thrust vector nozzles only go up and down. Thats right, it only has vertical thrust vectoring. So while it can do its Cobra manoeuvre better than all other jets, it only has the one Cobra manoeuvre. The new Russian jet has 360 degree thrust vectoring so it can do them all.

Air Intake Duct - On the F22 this returns the largest radar signature on the jet. Its not the duct itself, its the gap between the duct and the fuselage. The Americans have never figured out how to remove that gap because doing so causes their aircraft to stall during thrust vectoring. The new Russian jets solves it. By moving it under the aircraft, simple but effective. It means the Russian jet is more stealthy that the F22.

With the above two hence the name `checkmate`

Any documentation besides a video with no info?

Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/07/18/russias-new-fighter-breaks-cover-its-got-stealth-written-all-over-it/?sh=29859c4e367b

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-expected-unveil-stealth-fighter-jet-air-show-attended-by-putin-2021-07-20/

Nation Interest

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia’s-new-“checkmate”-stealth-fighter-unveiled-here’s-what-we-know-190001

So far no mention of the 360 degree vector and a much to-do concerning foreign markets.  Maybe this is not the supercool Russian fighter but the supercool export fighter.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by OverSword

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

For decades now the American ordinance is what wins the fights.  all opposing planes need to do is to be able to fire before the Russians, and from what I've read we still can.

  

Any documentation besides a video with no info?

Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/07/18/russias-new-fighter-breaks-cover-its-got-stealth-written-all-over-it/?sh=29859c4e367b

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-expected-unveil-stealth-fighter-jet-air-show-attended-by-putin-2021-07-20/

Nation Interest

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia’s-new-“checkmate”-stealth-fighter-unveiled-here’s-what-we-know-190001

So far no mention of the 360 degree vector and a much to-do concerning foreign markets.  Maybe this is not the supercool Russian fighter but the supercool export fighter.

 

The engine nozzles on the F22 and their movement can be observed in this video: (34) 【HD】 F-22 thrust vectoring nozzles - YouTube

They only move up and down to direct the thrust, they arent capable of 360 degree thrust vectoring. It means the jet only has one Cobra manoeuvre. They designed the nozzles that way to hide the engine heat signature over having true thrust vectoring.

If you look at checkmate it has the stand engine nozzle of all recent Russian jets and they all have 360 degree thrust vectoring.

When a jet is thrust vectoring horizontally (or near horizontal) then air pressure builds up under the wings and fuselage. If that gets too high the jet looses energy and stalls. To counteract that the F22 has its air intake ducts on the side and a gap between them and the fuselage. It is a long standing technological challenge about how to remove that gap without engine stalls because its where most of stealth jets radar cross sections come from.

If you look at checkmate they have innovated with the shape of their air intake duct. It has fixed the problem. I can tell you just by looking at it that it would run rings around a F22 in a dogfight. Full thrust vectoring without stalls, and a bit more stealthy too. Hence the checkmate name. They have an advantage over the USA there and I suspect they will sell a lot on export.

Its wings are also thinner making it more stealthy too.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[Tatetopa]

Aircraft are getting close to the edge of  Human performance capabilities.  Even now designers might  be able to construct a craft  that would kill a pilot with its extreme maneuvers  How long before those craft take to the air as drones and surpass the capability of humans to match them?

[SHaYap]

39 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Aircraft are getting close to the edge of  Human performance capabilities.  Even now designers might  be able to construct a craft  that would kill a pilot with its extreme maneuvers  How long before those craft take to the air as drones and surpass the capability of humans to match them?

Not to mention the totally revamped support, security and technical infrastructure along with the expertise required of the maintenance crew... 

~

[Silver]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Aircraft are getting close to the edge of  Human performance capabilities.  Even now designers might  be able to construct a craft  that would kill a pilot with its extreme maneuvers  How long before those craft take to the air as drones and surpass the capability of humans to match them?

That's a very good question! I wonder if they are already doing it ( or at least in simulation). A "conventional" aircraft which can be flown without consideration for G-forces and without risking the life of the pilot who is several thousand miles away.

[Inn Spectre]

5 hours ago, OverSword said:

For decades now the American ordinance is what wins the fights.

Ordnance may win a fight, but not ordinance.

[Silver]

7 hours ago, Inn Spectre said:

Ordnance may win a fight, but not ordinance.

Unless it is a war of words.

[Buzz_Light_Year]

Well I'll remain a skeptic on its capabilities.

In 1976 a Russian pilot defected to the U.S. via Japan and flew Russia's latest greatest jet at the time the MIG 25 Foxbat and after they inspected the jet the U.S. wasn't that impressed.

[Nnicolette]

"The Americans dont like this. The Americans cant figure out where to put thier air intake duct."   what a silly bit of propaganda. So the Russian jet can "do them all" whatever that means....   he alone knows the secrets the American's could never know... Oh wait it was summed up in a couple sentences but it's ok Americans cant read.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Nnicolette

[+OverSword]

12 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

The engine nozzles on the F22 and their movement can be observed in this video: (34) 【HD】 F-22 thrust vectoring nozzles - YouTube

They only move up and down to direct the thrust, they arent capable of 360 degree thrust vectoring. It means the jet only has one Cobra manoeuvre. They designed the nozzles that way to hide the engine heat signature over having true thrust vectoring.

If you look at checkmate it has the stand engine nozzle of all recent Russian jets and they all have 360 degree thrust vectoring.

When a jet is thrust vectoring horizontally (or near horizontal) then air pressure builds up under the wings and fuselage. If that gets too high the jet looses energy and stalls. To counteract that the F22 has its air intake ducts on the side and a gap between them and the fuselage. It is a long standing technological challenge about how to remove that gap without engine stalls because its where most of stealth jets radar cross sections come from.

If you look at checkmate they have innovated with the shape of their air intake duct. It has fixed the problem. I can tell you just by looking at it that it would run rings around a F22 in a dogfight. Full thrust vectoring without stalls, and a bit more stealthy too. Hence the checkmate name. They have an advantage over the USA there and I suspect they will sell a lot on export.

Its wings are also thinner making it more stealthy too.

According to every article I linked to those ducts on the Russian plane will slow it down and make it more visible to radar from the approach view. Just stealthy-ish and slower than the raptor 

[Jon the frog]

2 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Well I'll remain a skeptic on its capabilities.

In 1976 a Russian pilot defected to the U.S. via Japan and flew Russia's latest greatest jet at the time the MIG 25 Foxbat and after they inspected the jet the U.S. wasn't that impressed.

They where thinking it was a fighter... but it was an interceptor.

[Inn Spectre]

5 hours ago, Ted E Hughes said:

Unless it is a war of words.

Good luck with that while flying a plane.

[Duke Wellington]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

According to every article I linked to those ducts on the Russian plane will slow it down and make it more visible to radar from the approach view. Just stealthy-ish and slower than the raptor 

Nah, its the opposite of what they claim.

Those air intake ducts have long been a problem which the US hasn`t been able to deal with. They attempt to counter it with radar absorbing paint between the ducts and the fuselage but its where most of the F22s radar signature comes from.

[+OverSword]

14 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Nah, its the opposite of what they claim.

Those air intake ducts have long been a problem which the US hasn`t been able to deal with. They attempt to counter it with radar absorbing paint between the ducts and the fuselage but its where most of the F22s radar signature comes from.

And yet you have linked to nothing to counter the multiple articles that I linked to.  All  you have actually linked to was a video with no context.

Edited July 21, 2021 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

3 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

They where thinking it was a fighter... but it was an interceptor.

And couldn't figure that out huh?    Yeah the USA doesn't know what it's talking about when it comes to aircraft.

[Tatetopa]

13 hours ago, Ted E Hughes said:

That's a very good question! I wonder if they are already doing it ( or at least in simulation). A "conventional" aircraft which can be flown without consideration for G-forces and without risking the life of the pilot who is several thousand miles away.

I wonder that as well.  Being a distrustful cynic and bearing in mind that telling the truth is not in any nation's Constitution,  I wonder if the Skunkworks is at it again.   B-1, B-2, and SR-71 all got UFO reports when they were being tested.  The government denied their existence as long as they could, until they were ready for deployment. 

[Duke Wellington]

28 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And yet you have linked to nothing to counter the multiple articles that I linked to.  Al  you have actually linked to was a video with no context.

Why do I have to nanny feed you links when you have the internet yourself?

Engines: Thrust Vector - How F/A-22 Raptors Work | HowStuffWorks

I quote `The F/A-22`s nozzle on the other hand is the first thrust vectoring nozzle. That means the pilot can move or vector the nozzle up and down by 20 degrees`.

That is 16 years old so other jets now have thrust vectoring, and Russian ones have full circular vectoring not just up and down.

The YF-23's Air Inlet Design Was Its Most Exotic Feature You Never Heard Of (thedrive.com)

I quote `Elaborate 'splitter plates' and the designing of offsets that separate an air intake's structure from the aircraft's fuselage had been the norm for supersonic fighters prior to the ATF competition, but those concepts were not very conducive to stealth. Even a small gap between the intake and the fuselage can result in a radar cross-section increase where it matters most—from the aircraft's forward hemisphere. Even the production F-22 design didn't do away entirely with this feature, but Northrop's YF-23 design did. The issue has to do with boundary layer air that spreads around the aircraft's fuselage as it flies. Boundary layer air can propagate at a different velocity and flow direction compared to the air that is offset from the aircraft's surface and is freely gobbled up by the aircraft's intakes. Mixing the two is far from ideal and can lead to large drops in engine efficiency, thrust instability, or worse. During certain regimes of flight, boundary layer air can become highly turbulent, largely impacting the engine's performance or even suffocating it. The idea is to provide uniform airflow through the entire intake opening.

The F22 kept the ducts because its engines stall without them during vertical thrust vectoring, and supersonic flight. Russia has no gap between its ducts and its fuselage, instead the duct and fuselage are part of the same air intake structure. Hence it is more stealthy and the name `checkmate`. It is better than the F22 at stealth and thrust vectoring.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[+OverSword]

17 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Why do I have to nanny feed you links when you have the internet yourself?

Engines: Thrust Vector - How F/A-22 Raptors Work | HowStuffWorks

I quote `The F/A-22`s nozzle on the other hand is the first thrust vectoring nozzle. That means the pilot can move or vector the nozzle up and down by 20 degrees`.

That is 16 years old so other jets now have thrust vectoring, and Russian ones have full circular vectoring not just up and down.

The YF-23's Air Inlet Design Was Its Most Exotic Feature You Never Heard Of (thedrive.com)

I quote `Elaborate 'splitter plates' and the designing of offsets that separate an air intake's structure from the aircraft's fuselage had been the norm for supersonic fighters prior to the ATF competition, but those concepts were not very conducive to stealth. Even a small gap between the intake and the fuselage can result in a radar cross-section increase where it matters most—from the aircraft's forward hemisphere. Even the production F-22 design didn't do away entirely with this feature, but Northrop's YF-23 design did. The issue has to do with boundary layer air that spreads around the aircraft's fuselage as it flies. Boundary layer air can propagate at a different velocity and flow direction compared to the air that is offset from the aircraft's surface and is freely gobbled up by the aircraft's intakes. Mixing the two is far from ideal and can lead to large drops in engine efficiency, thrust instability, or worse. During certain regimes of flight, boundary layer air can become highly turbulent, largely impacting the engine's performance or even suffocating it. The idea is to provide uniform airflow through the entire intake opening.

The F22 kept the ducts because its engines stall without them during vertical thrust vectoring, and supersonic flight. Russia has no gap between its ducts and its fuselage, instead the duct and fuselage are part of the same air intake structure. Hence it is more stealthy and the same `checkmate`.

I'm not disputing this but comparing Northrop's YF-23 to Lockheed's F-22 doesn't tell anything about the MIG in question.

Quote

Russia has no gap between its ducts and its fuselage, instead the duct and fuselage are part of the same air intake structure. Hence it is more stealthy and the same `checkmate`.

Probably not because the part that disrupts the stealth is not the vectoring ducts but the air intake at the front of the plane.  That big lip for intake behind the nose is where radar will bounce off.

Edited July 21, 2021 by OverSword

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I'm not disputing this but comparing Northrop's YF-23 to Lockheed's F-22 doesn't tell anything about the MIG in question.

Probably not because the part that disrupts the stealth is not the vectoring ducts but the air intake at the front of the plane.  That big lip for intake behind the nose is where radar will bounce off.

Well thats because the article is mentioning the F22 not the checkmate. What vectoring ducts? What are you on about? Air intake ducts are what we have been talking about. I dont even know what vectoring ducts are, they dont exist. Are you only half reading stuff?

You can see the Checkmate, you can visually see the engine nozzles and the air intake ducts and how there is no gap. Have a look at the links that have been posted already.

[+OverSword]

13 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Well thats because the article is mentioning the F22 not the checkmate. What vectoring ducts? What are you on about? Air intake ducts are what we have been talking about. I dont even know what vectoring ducts are, they dont exist. Are you only half reading stuff?

You can see the Checkmate, you can visually see the engine nozzles and the air intake ducts and how there is no gap. Have a look at the links that have been posted already.

Read the articles I've linked to it's all explained how those forward facing intake ducts will slow it down and make it less staealthy

Quote

Have a look at the links that have been posted already.

Which ones?  The one's that have nothing to do with the plane in question?  Read the links in which experts evaluate the plane.  I know how thrust vectoring works I have an X-Box don't I? 

Edited July 21, 2021 by OverSword

[Setton]

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And couldn't figure that out huh?    Yeah the USA doesn't know what it's talking about when it comes to aircraft.

Pfft. The wings don't even flap. Obviously can't fly, right?

[aztek]

this prototype is not meant to fight f35 or 22s, it's made as a propaganda for internal consumption, same as many Russian's "best in the world" weapons',  people's confidence of Putin is dropping,  he has to have something better than anyone so Russians feel proud about their president.    i would not expect this plane to be of any obstacle to USAF if time comes.

[Jon the frog]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

And couldn't figure that out huh?    Yeah the USA doesn't know what it's talking about when it comes to aircraft.

Well they figured that out when they got it, before that they where thinking it was able to dogfight... They where also  thinking that the tu-128 was a supersonic bomber for a while before some B-52 got intercepted by it and was seen with aa missiles.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Jon the frog