Separation of Church and State

[Mr Walker]

56 minutes ago, eight bits said:

In some states, it is perfectly clear that fundies have the organization and base numbers to get what they want and care about from those states, were it legally possible for them to do so. That's especially relevant to education, which is largely a state-level (or in some states, local-level through high school) enterprise. Health care is currently in flux between state and federal dominance, but a good deal of regualtory power still resides at the state level.

Yes, all coalition politics has the problem of dividing up the spoils within the coalition. Doubtless, come the day of Jesus's victory over secularism, denomiation A will squabble with denomination B

.That doesn't stop other coalitions from forming and pushing compromise agendas, why should religious coalitions hesitate? Massachusetts managed an establishment in which any Protestant denomination could be (and one of them must be) tax supported according to local option. That system survived for more than a generation after statehood was achieved - God can sort these things out, apparently

Well, forum rules forbid gambling propositions, which is too bad, 'cause this is a sucker bet.

Yes i just explained that, at a state level religious groups DO influence policies and laws  

But the Federal laws over rule them, and separation is a federal /constitutional issue 

..........................................................................

You'd lose your bet 

You don't KNOW it, at all 

Basically you are wrong, and so your knowldge   is false, but second there is no way to KNOW such a thing, given the extent of our relationship 

If you came and lived near me for a  little while, you would note that you are wrong, and that every point I write is true 

I've explained it all before, but you don't listen.

 I was raised an atheist /secular humanist 

After my first contact with "god" I studied intensely, many religions and churches,  to see if any  could throw a light on my experience. I spent hours every week for some years with half a dozen different churches   I was young, single, had just had an encounter with "god," and was forced to reconsider my  atheism. I had the time and the interest for this study 

Having no real religious beliefs from childhood,  I was able to look at  all them objectively to see which suited me best as a form of communal expression  

I chose Christianity as a social form  of expression  because where i lived it was   very strongly the social expression of belief. 

That remains the same, although there are more people with no formal religious attachment,  today than 50 years ago 

eg In the last census, in my district, 52.5% of the population was Christian and only 1.8% had a non christian religious belief 1 /3rd of them were Buddhists  (87 people) 

 

I liked many of the protestant versions of Christianity (Catholicism simply seemed to guilt ridden and centrally controlled for me, and i didnt like its history  Plus of course i needed no priest or church to intercede with god for me, and knew that theology was wrong. We can all live with god without church or relgion ) but eventually  came to Adventism for 3 reasons.

I liked its values and attitudes on education health  and life style 

 I liked the people and the  local church with its family atmosphere activities and  yummy shared lunches 

The third reason was that my wife to be was an SDA 

 

While i didn't believe in their theology i could live the life she expected  in practical terms and( as i would have done in an marriage)  I did my best to make sure the relationship worked .  We were both in it for the long haul ie 50 or more years  (and are currently approaching 46 years of successful marriage ) (Her parents reached over 70 years and mine were a few days short of 60 when my father died)  

So, heaven forbid,  if my present wife died, and I married a Buddhist, I'd become a Buddhist in lifestyle.

Same for any woman/  religion.

  I'd struggle to live with an atheist of strong opinions ,   because I live with a real and powerful god, but I could manage it 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Mr Walker

[+Nuclear Wessel]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Yes i just explained that, at a state level religious groups DO influence policies and laws  

But the Federal laws over rule them, and separation is a federal /constitutional issue 

..........................................................................

You'd lose your bet 

You don't KNOW it, at all 

Basically you are wrong, and so your knowldge   is false, but second there is no way to KNOW such a thing, given the extent of our relationship 

If you came and lived near me for a  little while, you would note that you are wrong, and that every point I write is true 

I've explained it all before, but you don't listen.

 I was raised an atheist /secular humanist 

After my first contact with "god" I studied intensely, many religions and churches,  to see if any  could throw a light on my experience. I spent hours every week for some years with half a dozen different churches   I was young, single, had just had an encounter with "god," and was forced to reconsider my  atheism. I had the time and the interest for this study 

Having no real religious beliefs from childhood,  I was able to look at  all them objectively to see which suited me best as a form of communal expression  

I chose Christianity as a social form  of expression  because where i lived it was   very strongly the social expression of belief. 

 

I liked many of the protestant versions of Christianity (Catholicism simply seemed to guilt ridden and centrally controlled for me, and i didnt like its history  Plus of course i needed no priest or church to intercede with god for me, and knew that theology was wrong. We can all live with god without church or relgion ) but eventually  came to Adventism for 3 reasons I liked its values and attirudes oneduction health  and lfe style 

 I liked the people and the  local church with its family atmosphere activities and  yummy shared lunches 

The third reason was that my wife to be was an SDA 

 

While i didn't believe in their theology i could live the life she expected  in practical terms and( as i would have done in an marriage)  I did my best to make sure the relationship worked .  We were both in it for the long haul ie 50 or more years  *and are currently approaching 46 years of successful marriage (her parents reached over 70 years and mine were a few days short of 60 when my father died)  

so heaven forbid  if my present wife died, and i married a Buddhist, I'd become a Buddhist in lifestyle.

Same for any woman/  religion.

  I'd struggle to live with an atheist of strong opinions ,   because I live with a real and powerful god, but I could manage it 

 

Dude, you can stop the charade--we know you were the assistant to the lead pathfinder. I even have an idea as to what church it was.

Pathological lying will get you nowhere with us. We're keeners.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[Mr Walker]

27 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Dude, you can stop the charade--we know you were the assistant to the lead pathfinder. I even have an idea as to what church it was.

Pathological lying will get you nowhere with us. We're keeners.

Only if you  believe what i write, rather than your own belief constructs, can you know me or know the truth  

 

I was never an assistant pathfinder, despite what it said in that wedding announcement. 

I never held that role. although i did  tell a few stories at the kids Sabbath school.

After all, i was a teacher and it was expected of me.  If i had been any sort of pathfinder, let alone a leader , I would have had a uniform and  had to earn badges etc.

It was like scouts, and i simply wasn't into that stuff; either secular scouting, or the religious version. 

Plus I was a young married bloke who spent 5 days with kids and one day each weekend preparing and marking work. I wasn't interested in spending my Friday nights or Saturday afternoons with kids, much as i loved them .  I wont spell it out, but you might be able to work out what I was doing in my "off time"  

But suppose i had been that pathfinder leader. 

That was almost 50 years ago.

Are you the same person  today, that you were 50 years ago?

   I am not. 

it is a pity that announcement surfaced  because it is false and misleading, not because it "proves" me wrong

it doesn't prove anything, and you wont find anything to show it was ever true  

I know the truth.

Others believe, according to their prejudices 

I know its important to you for me to be wrong about many things 

It helps you, to believe I am lying 

Unfortunately the truth is what it is , and you cant hide from it 

I did attend church with my wife for about a decade after we were married (76-84)  I then took her to church  for another decade after I stopped going   (84 to mid 90s )

  It was a 25 mile drive  from our farm to the town, and she never had a licence.  I would drop her off then visit family  She also stopped attending, some   25 years ago (probably because we were caring for her parents with Alzheimer's, and a young teenage couple with 2 kids at the time ,and this was 24/7 commitment)   and i haven't attended for over 30.

  I have explained this many times over the years, and i could prove it if  it was necessary, but it's not 

ps which is it that "you" are?   

plural noun: keeners

1.

a person who wails or sings in grief for a dead person.

"a team of five keeners was hired to cry on the way to escort their father to the crematorium"

2.

INFORMAL•DIALECT

a person who is extremely eager, zealous, or enthusiastic.

"for the real keeners, tickets can be purchased in advance"

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Mr Walker

[+Nuclear Wessel]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I know its important to you for me to be wrong about many things 

It is not important to me, in the slightest.

I'm unsurprised that you believe otherwise, though. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

33 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Yes i just explained that, at a state level religious groups DO influence policies and laws  

But the Federal laws over rule them, and separation is a federal /constitutional issue 

..........................................................................

You'd lose your bet 

You don't KNOW it, at all 

Basically you are wrong, and so your knowldge   is false, but second there is no way to KNOW such a thing, given the extent of our relationship 

If you came and lived near me for a  little while, you would note that you are wrong, and that every point I write is true 

I've explained it all before, but you don't listen.

 I was raised an atheist /secular humanist 

After my first contact with "god" I studied intensely, many religions and churches,  to see if any  could throw a light on my experience. I spent hours every week for some years with half a dozen different churches   I was young, single, had just had an encounter with "god," and was forced to reconsider my  atheism. I had the time and the interest for this study 

Having no real religious beliefs from childhood,  I was able to look at  all them objectively to see which suited me best as a form of communal expression  

I chose Christianity as a social form  of expression  because where i lived it was   very strongly the social expression of belief. 

That remains the same, although there are more people with no formal religious attachment,  today than 50 years ago 

eg In the last census, in my district, 52.5% of the population was Christian and only 1.8% had a non christian religious belief 1 /3rd of them were Buddhists  (87 people) 

 

I liked many of the protestant versions of Christianity (Catholicism simply seemed to guilt ridden and centrally controlled for me, and i didnt like its history  Plus of course i needed no priest or church to intercede with god for me, and knew that theology was wrong. We can all live with god without church or relgion ) but eventually  came to Adventism for 3 reasons.

I liked its values and attitudes on education health  and life style 

 I liked the people and the  local church with its family atmosphere activities and  yummy shared lunches 

The third reason was that my wife to be was an SDA 

 

While i didn't believe in their theology i could live the life she expected  in practical terms and( as i would have done in an marriage)  I did my best to make sure the relationship worked .  We were both in it for the long haul ie 50 or more years  (and are currently approaching 46 years of successful marriage ) (Her parents reached over 70 years and mine were a few days short of 60 when my father died)  

So, heaven forbid,  if my present wife died, and I married a Buddhist, I'd become a Buddhist in lifestyle.

Same for any woman/  religion.

  I'd struggle to live with an atheist of strong opinions ,   because I live with a real and powerful god, but I could manage it 

 

If you are really married which by the comments you made above I honestly don't believe you are, you are a morbid and disturbed  individual. How can you even say heaven forbid if my present wife died and put a smilely face in the middle of it, that's totally demented and it proves the only way you could be enlighten is if you sat on a table lamp and it slipped up inside you!

While becoming a Buddhist is certainly a possibility for anyone, by your comments your Karma would prevent you from ever progressing. In Buddhism Karma is the driving force that will determine you ability to move farword with each reincarnation, no matter how you present yourself here, it's impossible to hide from Karma!

[Mr Walker]

40 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

If you are really married which by the comments you made above I honestly don't believe you are, you are a morbid and disturbed  individual. How can you even say heaven forbid if my present wife died and put a smilely face in the middle of it, that's totally demented and it proves the only way you could be enlighten is if you sat on a table lamp and it slipped up inside you!

While becoming a Buddhist is certainly a possibility for anyone, by your comments your Karma would prevent you from ever progressing. In Buddhism Karma is the driving force that will determine you ability to move farword with each reincarnation, no matter how you present yourself here, it's impossible to hide from Karma!

Different strokes for different folks 

My wife is almost 80. I turn 70 next month, We've been in love, for over 50 years and married for  45.

She had a stroke 3 years ago. I've got new heart valves, arteries, and a pacemaker   We speak freely (and realistically)  about what we would do if either of us died (financially emotionally and practically)  because  it is always possible.   One morning  one of us will quite likely wake up to find the other has died in their sleep.   

The smiley was deliberate, to show  that I hope this doesn't happen.

BUT, just as i loved and adapted to my wife completely and passionately for 50 years , i would do the same if i fell in love with another woman and remarried  That would include fitting into her beliefs lifestyle etc  if necessary  ( In marriage it is important to be partners and equally yoked. so that you pull together as a team, rather than as two individuals) 

Of course this assumes that any woman would ever want me  

Reincarnation is the bit of Buddhism that i don't believe in, just as i don't believe in heaven and hell. 

I like, and live by, some of the principles of Buddhism, because   it improves me and is best for my world   That is also why live by some christian principles and many environmental ones like sustainable living with a sustainable ecological footprint  Hence vegetarianism is both a spiritual and a n ecological value although i follow a middle path on it  So is the way I treat animals. 

Likewise karma is a real and powerful force in our present life, but i dont' believe it affects any past or  future  life.   I have had good karma all my life,  in part because   of how I treat others and the environment  It is the same as a christian principle " What you sow  so shall you reap"

It is magnified because I live in a small community where your character,  attitude to others, and behaviour,  strongly influences how others see you and treat you Eg I went into  a shop to buy some second hand videos today They would have cost me about $ 20. However, because i run a community facility where people can just take or exchange books and dvds,  i was given the  DVDs for free. Indeed this also happens in the regional city  nearby, where  a large charity- based book shop has given me hundreds of books and dvds in the last year.

I never have to buy a cappuccino, being given one by our local corner shop every morning. In return I leave them the daily paper after i have read it  Today i was given a box valued at about $100 which allows you to convert a TV to a smart Tv for free, because i had given a bloke some videos he was after .  Yesterday i was given a dozen eggs  Last week a lady dropped off 4  lots of frozen home cooked meals. This sort of thing happens all the time  . 

It is how I see karma in action. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Mr Walker

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I've explained it all before, but you don't listen.

Actually, your problem is that I do listen, and I'm not alone in that.

Seriously, @Nuclear Wessel offered you some good advice just now. Just drop the "SDA? moi?" pose, and everybody will be happier, including you.

[SHaYap]

10 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Actually, your problem is that I do listen, and I'm not alone in that.

Bewildering... 

~

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

Actually, your problem is that I do listen, and I'm not alone in that.

Seriously, @Nuclear Wessel offered you some good advice just now. Just drop the "SDA? moi?" pose, and everybody will be happier, including you.

Like I said, you don't actually  listen. You read the words but discount them. That is NOT listening.  

Stop assuming that I am a  secret apologist for Adventism .

Over the years I've  (very openly) given my  views on both their  lifestyle message, and their theology 

I strongly agree with the lifestyle, and don't agree with the theology.  

Perhaps its time you reminded everyone of your own "history" with Adventist theology, and why you are so opposed to it,  especially the role of Ellen White in its foundation  

You are asking me to lie, or agree with lies promulgated by others . I will never do either. 

Take what I post as true, or disbelieve it, but please don't insult my honesty or intelligence.

 

 

 

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

especially the role of Ellen White in its foundation  

Ellen White was not used in the foundation Jimmy Hoffa was.

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Perhaps its time you reminded everyone of your own "history" with Adventist theology, and why you are so opposed to it,  especially the role of Ellen White in its foundation  

I'm not sure why it matters, but I have no personal involvement with SDA, past or present. I know what it is about because I am interested in such things and SDA is very visible in the USA. Given what interests me and where I live, I'd be hard pressed not to know about them.

As to Ellen White, I do recall having discussed some aspects of her writings (visionary experiences and possible plagiarism), and those discussions may well have been here at UM, maybe some of them with you. She's not somebody who comes up often (at least not as far as I can recall). If there was anything "special" about my remarks, then you'll have to remind me.

[+Sherapy]

16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Like I said, you don't actually  listen. You read the words but discount them. That is NOT listening.  

Stop assuming that I am a  secret apologist for Adventism .

Over the years I've  (very openly) given my  views on both their  lifestyle message, and their theology 

I strongly agree with the lifestyle, and don't agree with the theology.  

Perhaps its time you reminded everyone of your own "history" with Adventist theology, and why you are so opposed to it,  especially the role of Ellen White in its foundation  

You are asking me to lie, or agree with lies promulgated by others . I will never do either. 

Take what I post as true, or disbelieve it, but please don't insult my honesty or intelligence.

 

 

 

Over the years, you have been a staunch advocate for SDA and you have been very vocal about it. The thing is we do read what you post and you are an open supporter of SDA just like this post states. And, you have said countless times you adopted your wife’s beliefs and you believe a couple must be equally yoked.  

https://www.adventistreview.org/2006-1504-16

Eighty has no history with SDA. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Sherapy

[SHaYap]

Someone needs a fairy godmother more than a god of alien origin... 

Quote

 

[00.00:54]

~

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, eight bits said:

I'm not sure why it matters, but I have no personal involvement with SDA, past or present. I know what it is about because I am interested in such things and SDA is very visible in the USA. Given what interests me and where I live, I'd be hard pressed not to know about them.

As to Ellen White, I do recall having discussed some aspects of her writings (visionary experiences and possible plagiarism), and those discussions may well have been here at UM, maybe some of them with you. She's not somebody who comes up often (at least not as far as I can recall). If there was anything "special" about my remarks, then you'll have to remind me.

Indeed we had a number of those conversations, and when you found out that my wife was an Adventist, and that i liked their lifestyle,  your attitude to me changed 

it was also influenced because I can accept the possibly  that Mrs White's visions were genuine, having a similar connection to the cosmic consciousness myself (which unlike her i don't attribute to a religious being )  while you are certain    the y were caused by  epilepsy or some form of illness caused by injury.

  This seemed also to lessen your regard for my opinions, as if I was somehow tainted or irrational/illogical,   or deluded/ misperceiving reality .

I sensed a very strong antipathy to her and, while you gave no reason for it, such antipathy often has a personal cause.

Some of your posts hinted a t a conflict  caused by Adventist beliefs, and her teachings in particular. eg you seem more oppositional to Adventism than other Christian theologies like Catholicism  

if I am wrong so be it. That just illustrates how hard it is to asses things, using only online posts  

You get me wrong all the time   and it is possible  that i have misread your feelings on this. 

 

 

Of course I am a little biased, but i accept  expert academic opinion on the issue of plagiarism.

quote

Because she included such selections from other authors in her writings, critics have charged Ellen White with plagiarism. But the mere use of another's language does not constitute literary theft, as noted by Attorney Vincent L. Ramik, a specialist in patent, trademark, and copyright cases. After researching about 1,000 copyright cases in American legal history, Ramik issued a 27-page legal opinion in which he concluded "Ellen White was not a plagiarist, and her works did not constitute copyright infringement/piracy." Ramik points out several factors that critics of Ellen White's writings have failed to take into account when accusing her of literary theft or deceit. 1) Her selections "stayed well within the legal boundaries of 'fair use.'" 2) "Ellen White used the writings of others; but in the way she used them, she made them uniquely her own"--adapting the selections into her own literary framework. 3) Ellen White urged her readers to get copies of some of the very books she made use of--demonstrating that she did not attempt to conceal the fact of her use of literary sources, and that she had no intention to defraud or supersede the works of any other author.

https://whiteestate.org/about/issues1/about-egw/writings/literary-productions/plagiarism-charge/

In case one wonders about the bona fides or  possible bias of Ramik 

 

https://www.martindale.com/attorney/vincent-l-ramik-1727761/

quote

What was this Ramik study about? Give me the details.

The office of the chief counsel of the General Conference, under the direction of Warren L. Johns, decided to get to the bottom of the legal aspects of this matter. So on April 21, 1981, six months after Rea issued his plagiarism charges, that office retained the services of a highly reputable firm specializing in patent, trademark, and copyright law. As you might imagine, the best of those legal firms are in Washington, D.C.; since that is where U.S. government applications are made and defended.

Since it was felt that a specialist in copyright law was needed, Vincent L. Ramik, senior partner in the law firm of Diller, Ramik & Wight, Ltd., was retained to personally carry out the work.

Was Ramik an Adventist or otherwise favorable to our message?

Our leaders had never done any previous work with Diller, Ramik & Wight. Ramik, himself, was a Roman Catholic. This is stated three times in the final report of the research study, which was printed in the September 17, 1981, issue of the Adventist Review (Ramik said so twice; the editor said it once). Later, Victor Cooper, a General Conference officer, also said so in the October 15, 1981, issue of the Mid-America Adventist Outlook. It should be noted that, as part of his task, Ramik read Great Controversy. He said that, in the course of his research, he read the entire book.

Over a period of four months (April 21 to late August 1981), Ramik spent more than 300 hours researching about 1,000 relevant cases in American legal history. Then he presented his report.

https://spiritofprophecydefend.com/ramik.html

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Over the years, you have been a staunch advocate for SDA and you have been very vocal about it. The thing is we do read what you post and you are an open supporter of SDA just like this post states. And, you have said countless times you adopted your wife’s beliefs and you believe a couple must be equally yoked.  

https://www.adventistreview.org/2006-1504-16

Eighty has no history with SDA. 

That is you  again constructing your own meanings and interpretations of my posts 

I've clearly explained that, yes i am a strong supporter of the lifestyle and health messages of Adventism (almost identical to  the health messages of  Buddhism as it happens ) but don't accept /believe the theology/faith  behind it (same for Buddhism) 

 Adventists live 10 years longer and enjoy better health than their fellow Americans. One would  have  to be deliberately obtuse not to take that into account in weighing lifestyle advocacy.

An example from  close to home, for you

quote

Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America’s blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don’t smoke or drink alcohol.

In support of a biblical diet of grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables, Adventists cite Genesis 1:29: “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.” The Adventists encourage a “well-balanced diet” including nuts, fruits, and legumes, low in sugar, salt, and refined grains. Studies have shown nonsmoking Adventists who ate 2 or more servings of fruit per day had about 70 percent fewer lung cancers than nonsmokers who ate fruit once or twice a week. Adventists who ate legumes such as peas and beans 3 times a week had a 30 to 40 percent reduction in colon cancer.

Adventists women who consumed tomatoes at least 3 or 4 times a week reduced their chance of getting ovarian cancer by 70 percent over those who ate tomatoes less often. Eating a lot of tomatoes also seemed to have an effect on reducing prostate cancer for men. A new study has found that adherents to this way of life have the nation’s lowest rates of heart disease and diabetes and very low rates of obesity.

https://www.bluezones.com/exploration/loma-linda-california/#:~:text=Today%2C a community of about,t smoke or drink alcohol.

quote

'I never had stress'

"As far as I am concerned, stress is a manufactured thing," Dr. Ellsworth Wareham told CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta in 2015 as part of a Vital Signs special on blue zones.

Wareham was 100 years old at the time and still mowed his front yard.

 

"I never had stress," said Wareham, a life-long Seventh-day Adventist. "I have a philosophy: You do the best you can. And the things you can't do anything about, don't give any thought to them."

Add all of these factors together and what do you get? A healthier body, less likely to succumb to diseases tied to obesity, such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer and heart disease. Research on Seventh-day Adventists, which began in the 1950s, has consistently shown that connection.

Exercise in the fresh air is a key part of the Seventh-day Adventist lifestyle.

"In our Adventist Health Study-2 vegetarians tended to have lower blood pressures, lower LDL cholesterol, less prevalence of the metabolic syndrome, and less diabetes," Orlich said. "Broadly defined vegetarians, which includes the pesco- and the semi-vegetarian, have a lower risk of colorectal cancer by about 22%. Vegans have a lower risk for prostate cancer."

 

The first Adventist Health Study, which began in the '90s, was a detailed analysis of longevity and the factors in the religion's lifestyle that contributed to it. The study linked the increase in a longer life span to five simple habits: no smoking, keeping to an ideal weight of below 25 BMI, eating a plant-based diet, eating nuts regularly and regular physical activity.

"If you had all those factors in the right direction, so to speak, they predicted about a 10-year differential in mortality within the Seventh-day Adventist population," Orlich said."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/25/health/longevity-blue-zone-wellness/index.html

lastly no i never said i adopted her beliefs eg she is a creationist, I am an evolutionist.  she believes in heaven I don't   She has a spiritual connection with "god " I have a physical one 

However, I respect her beliefs, and accept her right to hold them. I'd never belittle them, or argue against them 

  That is what it means to be equally yoked. 

Puling together in life,  not pulling apart 

Walking beside  each other not on separate  paths. 

Being a team, not an individual. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Mr Walker

[+Nuclear Wessel]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

She has a spiritual connection with "god " I have a physical one 

lol

[ThereWeAreThen]

17 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

lol

He has the biggest ego on this site, the more people respond the more it feeds his ego.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

16 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

He has the biggest ego on this site,

Oh, I am aware.

[eight bits]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Indeed we had a number of those conversations, and when you found out that my wife was an Adventist, and that i liked their lifestyle,  your attitude to me changed 

We've corresponded for a long time now, so nobody can be too surprised that my "attitude" toward you has evolved over all those years. I don't think there was any sudden change, neither in attitude nor in learning about your religious commitments.

For a long time, I'd found your gratuitous anti-Catholic remarks grating, and said so, without associating them with any specific denomination. Similarly, as various Bible threads would come up, I noticed your interpretations of Old and New Testament episodes to be both hyper-conservative and presented very insistently for somebody whose background was supposedly secular humanist. The name for what you were writing is apologetics, and that it was some sort of fundamentalist Protestant apologetics was only too obvious.

Two things that finally "closed the trap" for me were your complaints that one of the Roman Catholic Church's worst sins was that that denomination supposedly instituted Sunday weekly worship (the distinctive and otherwise arcane issue which gives "Seventh Day" adventism that much of its name) and the recurring curiosity that so many of your lifestyle googlefruits came from SDA healthcare sources (Loma Linda, indeed).

I don't think your wife's adherence was a factor at all. I'd figured out your religion by the time you discussed hers (or at least discussed it in any thread I was following). There's simply no surpise that the spouse of an SDA apologist would also be an SDA adherent.

 

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

it was also influenced because I can accept the possibly  that Mrs White's visions were genuine, having a similar connection to the cosmic consciousness myself (which unlike her i don't attribute to a religious being )  while you are certain    the y were caused by  epilepsy or some form of illness caused by injury.

I don't have a strongly held opinion about what physical circumstance caused her to experience visions. I do disagree with her interpretation of those visions, and of course, I am less likely than you are to attribute them to anything paranormal.

The plagiarism matter only came up here because it is something I believe that we've discussed in the past.

Big picture, I have a hobbyist's interest in American spiritualist and homebrew religons, especially post-Civil War and pre-WW I. It was (to me) a very interesting time and place for comparative religion. I can even go visit many of the "rooms where it happened," as the song from Hamilton puts it. I enjoy that sort of thing. So sure, Ellen White was a player. And if an SDA apologist happens to cross my path, then at some point we'll probably talk about her. But inevitably, she will loom larger in the SDA's sphere of interest than my own more general interest in the era when she was active.

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 minutes ago, eight bits said:

We've corresponded for a long time now, so nobody can be too surprised that my "attitude" toward you has evolved over all those years. I don't think there was any sudden change, neither in attitude nor in learning about your religious commitments.

For a long time, I'd found your gratuitous anti-Catholic remarks grating, and said so, without associating them with any specific denomination. Similarly, as various Bible threads would come up, I noticed your interpretations of Old and New Testament episodes to be both hyper-conservative and presented very insistently for somebody whose background was supposedly secular humanist. The name for what you were writing is apologetics, and that it was some sort of fundamentalist Protestant apologetics was only too obvious.

Two things that finally "closed the trap" for me were your complaints that one of the Roman Catholic Church's worst sins was that that denomination supposedly instituted Sunday weekly worship (the distinctive and otherwise arcane issue which gives "Seventh Day" adventism that much of its name) and the recurring curiosity that so many of your lifestyle googlefruits came from SDA healthcare sources (Loma Linda, indeed).

I don't think your wife's adherence was a factor at all. I'd figured out your religion by the time you discussed hers (or at least discussed it in any thread I was following). There's simply no surpise that the spouse of an SDA apologist would also be an SDA adherent.

 

I don't have a strongly held opinion about what physical circumstance caused her to experience visions. I do disagree with her interpretation of those visions, and of course, I am less likely than you are to attribute them to anything paranormal.

The plagiarism matter only came up here because it is something I believe that we've discussed in the past.

Big picture, I have a hobbyist's interest in American spiritualist and homebrew religons, especially post-Civil War and pre-WW I. It was (to me) a very interesting time and place for comparative religion. I can even go visit many of the "rooms where it happened," as the song from Hamilton puts it. I enjoy that sort of thing. So sure, Ellen White was a player. And if an SDA apologist happens to cross my path, then at some point we'll probably talk about her. But inevitably, she will loom larger in the SDA's sphere of interest than my own more general interest in the era when she was active.

I truly enjoy the manner in which you calmly, respectfully, and sincerely presented your response to his post. I have had a number of exchanges with the gentlemen, below I have listed a Buddhist Quote that to me is a very wise way to think before words are spoken. I also believe this is something he has never been able to grasp, and his comments prove it!

Peace my friend

[lightly]

mom used to tell us..  " if you can't say something good about someone, don't say anything at all".   .not sure how wise or sensible that ,always, is...but it's quieter.      

[SHaYap]

Both sides now... 

Quote

https://blog.buddhagroove.com/anger-management/

...

There once lived a very short tempered boy. One day, his father handed him a bag filled with nails. He told the boy that every time he burst out in anger, he should hammer one nail into their fence. On the first day, ...

~

A day came when the boy did not hammer a single nail, for he had not lost his temper at all. He announced this to his father with great pride. The father merely smiled and told his son, “....

~

The father then held the boy’s hand and led him to the fence. “Well done, son. But see these holes.

 

This fence will never look like it used to! That’s what words spoken in anger do, they inflict scars like these. You may stab a man with a knife several times. No matter how many times you repeat ‘I am sorry’, the wounds will not disappear.”

...

~

Quote

[00.03:12]

~

 

[+Sherapy]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is you  again constructing your own meanings and interpretations of my posts 

I've clearly explained that, yes i am a strong supporter of the lifestyle and health messages of Adventism (almost identical to  the health messages of  Buddhism as it happens ) but don't accept /believe the theology/faith  behind it (same for Buddhism) 

 Adventists live 10 years longer and enjoy better health than their fellow Americans. One would  have  to be deliberately obtuse not to take that into account in weighing lifestyle advocacy.

An example from  close to home, for you

quote

Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America’s blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don’t smoke or drink alcohol.

In support of a biblical diet of grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables, Adventists cite Genesis 1:29: “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.” The Adventists encourage a “well-balanced diet” including nuts, fruits, and legumes, low in sugar, salt, and refined grains. Studies have shown nonsmoking Adventists who ate 2 or more servings of fruit per day had about 70 percent fewer lung cancers than nonsmokers who ate fruit once or twice a week. Adventists who ate legumes such as peas and beans 3 times a week had a 30 to 40 percent reduction in colon cancer.

Adventists women who consumed tomatoes at least 3 or 4 times a week reduced their chance of getting ovarian cancer by 70 percent over those who ate tomatoes less often. Eating a lot of tomatoes also seemed to have an effect on reducing prostate cancer for men. A new study has found that adherents to this way of life have the nation’s lowest rates of heart disease and diabetes and very low rates of obesity.

https://www.bluezones.com/exploration/loma-linda-california/#:~:text=Today%2C a community of about,t smoke or drink alcohol.

quote

'I never had stress'

"As far as I am concerned, stress is a manufactured thing," Dr. Ellsworth Wareham told CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta in 2015 as part of a Vital Signs special on blue zones.

Wareham was 100 years old at the time and still mowed his front yard.

 

"I never had stress," said Wareham, a life-long Seventh-day Adventist. "I have a philosophy: You do the best you can. And the things you can't do anything about, don't give any thought to them."

Add all of these factors together and what do you get? A healthier body, less likely to succumb to diseases tied to obesity, such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer and heart disease. Research on Seventh-day Adventists, which began in the 1950s, has consistently shown that connection.

Exercise in the fresh air is a key part of the Seventh-day Adventist lifestyle.

"In our Adventist Health Study-2 vegetarians tended to have lower blood pressures, lower LDL cholesterol, less prevalence of the metabolic syndrome, and less diabetes," Orlich said. "Broadly defined vegetarians, which includes the pesco- and the semi-vegetarian, have a lower risk of colorectal cancer by about 22%. Vegans have a lower risk for prostate cancer."

 

The first Adventist Health Study, which began in the '90s, was a detailed analysis of longevity and the factors in the religion's lifestyle that contributed to it. The study linked the increase in a longer life span to five simple habits: no smoking, keeping to an ideal weight of below 25 BMI, eating a plant-based diet, eating nuts regularly and regular physical activity.

"If you had all those factors in the right direction, so to speak, they predicted about a 10-year differential in mortality within the Seventh-day Adventist population," Orlich said."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/25/health/longevity-blue-zone-wellness/index.html

lastly no i never said i adopted her beliefs eg she is a creationist, I am an evolutionist.  she believes in heaven I don't   She has a spiritual connection with "god " I have a physical one 

However, I respect her beliefs, and accept her right to hold them. I'd never belittle them, or argue against them 

  That is what it means to be equally yoked. 

Puling together in life,  not pulling apart 

Walking beside  each other not on separate  paths. 

Being a team, not an individual. 

 

 

The best way to enjoy good health or the best health you can is to not be overweight at all, exercise to your capabilities, get enough sleep, go to the doctor, go to the dentist and be proactive with a stress management plan if it applies.  In your case it applies. Religion can have a place, depending on how you use it, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t self care and you already demonstrate signs of burnout. A common one is needing to lose weight but not able to do it or seeing it as urgent. Most likely you are stress eating. The key is not to be overweight and any diet can lead to being overweight vegetarian or otherwise. You have to portion control, get a grip on your hand to mouth ratio. 
 

My concerns aren’t some pie in the sky if you ascribe to some belief you might get 10 more years, my concerns are the here and now, what you don’t do, (based off your posts)your wife is dependent on you and needs you to be in your best shape possible and it will get harder for you as a carer. 
 

All the best to you. 
 

 

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

lol

I appreciate you don't believe this is possible

However, it's the difference between faith/belief, and   knowledge

eg my wife has an absolute faith /belief in the existence and power of god 

I've never had or needed that .

I went from atheist to knowing "god" when I first encountered it. 

Interestingly, her faith is much more powerful than my knowledge, and directs her behaviours much more than my real "god "can  

i might  choose not to do what a   real god asks me to, but she will do whatever  she believes god asks of her 

Its like living with real parents vs living by the rules of parents you never met but whose values and expectations you learned as a child  from others ie It is easy to disobey real parents but much harder to disobey ones you have total faith in but have never met,. because to do tha t you have to break your own inner values and beliefs   not just the rules of someone else. 

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The best way to enjoy good health or the best health you can is to not be overweight at all, exercise to your capabilities, get enough sleep, go to the doctor, go to the dentist and be proactive with a stress management plan if it applies.  In your case it applies. Religion can have a place, depending on how you use it, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t self care and you already demonstrate signs of burnout. A common one is needing to lose weight but not able to do it or seeing it as urgent. Most likely you are stress eating. The key is not to be overweight and any diet can lead to being overweight vegetarian or otherwise. You have to portion control, get a grip on your hand to mouth ratio. 
 

My concerns aren’t some pie in the sky if you ascribe to some belief you might get 10 more years, my concerns are the here and now, what you don’t do, (based off your posts)your wife is dependent on you and needs you to be in your best shape possible and it will get harder for you as a carer. 
 

All the best to you. 
 

 

Thats not entirely true 

 

Health is complex and while weight is certainly   important so are many other elements   Your genes also determine your mental and physical health poterntial 

So do things like smoking, alcohol  consumption, and eating red meat  (especially processed meat )  stress   eg many people smoke to prevent weight gain, but smoking is more deadly than being over weight  Many skinny people are highly stressed and anxious which is also unhealthy 

The aim is to do your best in ALL areas maintaining  a middle path of balance 

Still it is a good point 

however  it is  fact not belief that an Adventist lifestyle adds 10 years to a person's life depending on how much the y follow it 

Thats BECAUSE it emphasises all the things you mention and  promotes good health through lifestyle  

And what signs Oh health  professional do you see in me of burnout?    It is funny tha t you think you can sense this online when a bevy of health professionals some of whom have known me well for 40 years and whom    deal with regularly, see me very differently. I dont have a stress management plan because no professional has ever identified me as being stressed, anxious, or depressed.  Im one of the happiest, least stressed  and contented people they have  ever encountered and some have told me this    and asked what my secret is. 

I am getting fitter and healthier, in part to be able to do more as a carer   

However this is a role of love and giving, not one of dependency or duty.  I dont HAVE to care for my wife, i choose to, along with professional helo.

I choose to get a bit fitter so i can do more

. I am not obliged to. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Mr Walker