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Did the Romans invent Jesus?


zep73

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13 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

during his Father's campaign to pacify Judea

Pacify, that's the thing. Christianity is made to pacify. At the time they (perhaps) concocted the gospels, they had problems with...

 

15 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

the monstrous and antisocial practices of the early Christians such as suicidal behavior (martyrdom) and rebellions

The "teachings of Jesus" was the perfect counter attack - or rather pacifier.

 

18 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

In short, this is very unlikely.

I can't see why.

I can only see Christianity as a means to an end for the Romans, and it worked like a charm, even placing the seat of power in Rome!

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3 hours ago, zep73 said:

I can't see why.

I can only see Christianity as a means to an end for the Romans, and it worked like a charm, even placing the seat of power in Rome!

Well, for a start, it didn't work.  The Jews never integrated.  Instead the Romans all adopted an extremist little sect for no good reason.  Does that make sense to you?  It makes no sense to me whatsoever and is the antithesis of how Romans conducted their statecraft.

Edited by Alchopwn
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5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

the Romans all adopted an extremist little sect for no good reason.  

 

Not true. There was a very good reason why the Romans adopted Christianity:

"The Mediterranean Roman Empire, the Parthian kingdom, and the adjacent peoples of Jesus’ time all held crude and primitive ideas regarding the geography of the world, astronomy, health, and disease; and naturally they were amazed by the new and startling pronouncements of the carpenter of Nazareth. The ideas of spirit possession, good and bad, applied not merely to human beings, but every rock and tree was viewed by many as being spirit possessed. This was an enchanted age, and everybody believed in miracles as commonplace occurrences."

So it goes to figure that the primary reason why Christianity has been and still is being adopted by many people all over the world is because of becoming amazed by the startling pronouncements of Jesus, when learning of the good sense of them.

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, for a start, it didn't work.  The Jews never integrated.  Instead the Romans all adopted an extremist little sect for no good reason.  Does that make sense to you?  It makes no sense to me whatsoever and is the antithesis of how Romans conducted their statecraft.

What didn't work? I'm not talking about the Jews.

Christianity extended Roman power over most of Europe for more than a millenium. How is that not a success?

Edited by zep73
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On 9/4/2022 at 12:57 AM, zep73 said:

What didn't work? I'm not talking about the Jews.

Christianity extended Roman power over most of Europe for more than a millenium. How is that not a success?

You are putting the cart before the horse.  Rome already had that dominion, and had it for a long time too.  They got nothing from pushing Jesus, in fact you can point to the rise of Christianity as corresponding with the decline of Rome. 

Also, don't be fooled by the idea that the Pope of Rome was always the head of the Church.  The true head of the church was the Patriarch of Antioch, but when Antioch and Alexandria fell to Islam, it became the Patriarch of Constantinople.  It isn't until the 1054 schism that the Pope becomes head of the Catholic portion of Christendom, it was actually the Patriarch of Constantinople who was the legal head of the Church up until the sack of Constantinople in 1453 which was a major shock to Christian consciousness at the time in a way that present generations don't even understand.

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On 9/3/2022 at 1:44 AM, Alchopwn said:

Well, for a start, it didn't work.  The Jews never integrated.  Instead the Romans all adopted an extremist little sect for no good reason.  Does that make sense to you?  It makes no sense to me whatsoever and is the antithesis of how Romans conducted their statecraft.

Yet the Roman empire is much larger than it was when Constantine initiated his version of christianity.   Business calendars are synchonized to use the Gregorian calendar in all countries that want to do business with the Roman Empire which is the western world (Europe, UK, North & South America are part of and even Russia).   I think it worked quite well, especially with the help of the Spaniards invading both north and south America.

Edited by Desertrat56
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4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You are putting the cart before the horse.  Rome already had that dominion, and had it for a long time too.  They got nothing from pushing Jesus, in fact you can point to the rise of Christianity as corresponding with the decline of Rome. 

Also, don't be fooled by the idea that the Pope of Rome was always the head of the Church.  The true head of the church was the Patriarch of Antioch, but when Antioch and Alexandria fell to Islam, it became the Patriarch of Constantinople.  It isn't until the 1054 schism that the Pope becomes head of the Catholic portion of Christendom, it was actually the Patriarch of Constantinople who was the legal head of the Church up until the sack of Constantinople in 1453 which was a major shock to Christian consciousness at the time in a way that present generations don't even understand.

The got everything from pushing Jesus.   Rome was declining, their empire wasn't even the largest in the world, it got them a much larger empire.  They still have an emperor but he is calld the Pope now.

Edited by Desertrat56
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3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yet the Roman empire is much larger than it was when Constantine initiated his version of christianity. 

We seem to be quantum leaping through ancient history in this thread. Back in the OP, we were invited to contemplate a grand conspiracy orchestrated by the Flavians. The Flavian dynasty didn't survive the First Century. Constantine hadn't consolidated power until well into the Fourth.

Lots happened to both church and empire in between. The team wasn't always pulling in the same direction, either.

And then ... ancient history no more:

3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

 I think it worked quite well, especially with the help of the Spaniards invading both north and south America.

Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492, beginning the Spanish push into the Americas. The Byzantine Empire, the by then long-humiliated almost continuation of the ancient Eastern Roman Empire, capitulated to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. Thereafter, there was no "Roman Empire" descended from Augustus for the Spaniards to help. (Well, there was the Holy Roman Empire, which as the saying so aptly has it, was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.)

To credit not Christianity (which like any living organization reinvents itself from one generation to the next) but First Century Christianity with determining the fortunes of the Roman Empires through the Fifteenth Century is like crediting Henry Ford with the invention of the self-driving electric-powered automobile. No, Henry invented the Model A. That started something, for sure, but Henry could not possibly have conspired with others to bring about something which only first appeared far off in his indefinite future.

Now the Wright brothers? Sure, they invented the International Space Station. The exception that proves the rule, eh?

 

Edited by eight bits
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3 minutes ago, eight bits said:

We seem to be quantum leaping through ancient history in this thread. Back in the OP, we were invited to contemplate a grand conspiracy orchestrated by the Flavians. The Flavian dynasty didn't survive the First Century. Constantine hadn't consolidated power until well into the Fourth. And then ... ancient history no more:

Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492, beginning the Spanish push into the Americas. The Byzantine Empire, the by then long-humiliated almost continuation of the ancient Eastern Roman Empire, capitulated to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. Thereafter, there was no "Roman Empire" descended from Augustus for the Spaniards to help. (Well, there was the Holy Roman Empire, which as the saying so aptly has it, was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.)

To credit not Christianity (which like any living organization reinvents itself from one generation to the next) but First Century Christianity with determining the fortunes of the Roman Empires through the Fifteenth Century is like crediting Henry Ford with the invention of the self-driving electric-powered automobile. No, Henry invented the Model A. That started something, for sure, but Henry could not possibly have conspired with others to bring about something which only first appeared far off in his indefinite future.

Now the Wright brothers? Sure, they invented the International Space Station. The exception that proves the rule, eh?

 

What can one expect from people with an axe to grind while, at the same time, abysmally ignorant of ancient or even modern history in general? Two or three posters have posted so many stupid things, it would take monumental walls of text to refute all the idiocy. Let them wallow in their ignorance--they actually seem to enjoy it, anyways.

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On 7/26/2021 at 8:52 PM, and-then said:

Doesn't seem a likely effort for a civilization that wasn't bothered to create new deities, does it?  Didn't they just sort of rename Greek gods?  If they did go out of their way to create a new one, it sure blew up in their faces, huh?

Well not exactly.  It kept the western empire around another 400 years and the eastern empire around until 1400 AD.   And they brought Christianity to Europe.  Hardly a bad investment.  Even today, there is still a Roman Catholic Church with its center in Rome

Edited by Tatetopa
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8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You are putting the cart before the horse.  Rome already had that dominion, and had it for a long time too.  They got nothing from pushing Jesus, in fact you can point to the rise of Christianity as corresponding with the decline of Rome. 

Also, don't be fooled by the idea that the Pope of Rome was always the head of the Church.  The true head of the church was the Patriarch of Antioch, but when Antioch and Alexandria fell to Islam, it became the Patriarch of Constantinople.  It isn't until the 1054 schism that the Pope becomes head of the Catholic portion of Christendom, it was actually the Patriarch of Constantinople who was the legal head of the Church up until the sack of Constantinople in 1453 which was a major shock to Christian consciousness at the time in a way that present generations don't even understand.

I'm not saying they planned how it happened, but they (most likely) did start it, as a crowd pacifier, and eventually seized control, placing the seat of power in Rome.

Christianity is and was a genius mind control invention, making an expensive army to enforce power redundant.

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2 hours ago, zep73 said:

I'm not saying they planned how it happened, but they (most likely) did start it, as a crowd pacifier, and eventually seized control, placing the seat of power in Rome.

Was there a particular crowd you had in mind that was pacified by its Christian beliefs?

That just wasn't Hypatia's lucky day?

 

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23 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Was there a particular crowd you had in mind that was pacified by its Christian beliefs?

Those who had accepted the gospels. It was probably a very slow process from manufacturing to full spread. Explains why the persecutions lasted 200 years.

But we will probably never know for sure, which makes any inquiry into details moot.

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1 minute ago, zep73 said:

Those who had accepted the gospels. It was probably a very slow process from manufacturing to full spread. Explains why the persecutions lasted 200 years.

I can only agree that the process must have been very slow. Hypatia died in 415.

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49 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That just wasn't Hypatia's lucky day?

3 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I can only agree that the process must have been very slow. Hypatia died in 415.

Had to read up on Hypatia. Can't see the relevance. People are people. You may be able to control the large majority, but there are always exceptions.

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Add it up... 

Quote
List of emperors  This list includes all 47 German monarchs crowned from Charlemagne until the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire (800–1806).
First monarch: Charlemagne (AD 800 formation); Otto the Great (AD 962 formation)

~

Each and every one an anointed one, the purveyor of mass wanton and wholesale slaughter with massacres across Europe through out their reigns as the "Sword" of God 

~

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14 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

The got everything from pushing Jesus.   Rome was declining, their empire wasn't even the largest in the world, it got them a much larger empire.  They still have an emperor but he is calld the Pope now.

It is a very long bow to draw to suggest that the Papacy is the logical successor of the original Roman Empire.  You're forgetting things like the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither holy, nor roman, not in fact an empire), and the Eastern Roman Empire which was the real successor.  Your suggestion really amounts to nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  If you need a few inconsistencies in your theory pointed out, how are Popes on staging gladiatorial contests?  How are Popes on their personal dynastic succession?  Also when you look at Rome as a city, it became a comparative backwater under the Papacy when you compare it to its former Imperial glory.

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10 hours ago, zep73 said:

Christianity is and was a genius mind control invention, making an expensive army to enforce power redundant.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but historically, Christianity has caused far more riots and civil disobedience than it has ended.  Also, being Christian is no indicator of a civic conscience.  US jails are filled with Christians, while the atheist community is grossly statistically under-represented as a proportion of the prison population, as an example.  About the only example I can think of where Christianity has actually had a positive social impact was in Iceland, where the Christian teaching of forgiveness ended generational blood feuding.

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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

It is a very long bow to draw to suggest that the Papacy is the logical successor of the original Roman Empire.  You're forgetting things like the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither holy, nor roman, not in fact an empire), and the Eastern Roman Empire which was the real successor.  Your suggestion really amounts to nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  If you need a few inconsistencies in your theory pointed out, how are Popes on staging gladiatorial contests?  How are Popes on their personal dynastic succession?  Also when you look at Rome as a city, it became a comparative backwater under the Papacy when you compare it to its former Imperial glory.

The "Holy Roman Empire" happened because Constantinople couldn't protect Rome anymore so the pope went to the Franks. 

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3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I understand the point you are trying to make, but historically, Christianity has caused far more riots and civil disobedience than it has ended.  Also, being Christian is no indicator of a civic conscience.  US jails are filled with Christians, while the atheist community is grossly statistically under-represented as a proportion of the prison population, as an example.  About the only example I can think of where Christianity has actually had a positive social impact was in Iceland, where the Christian teaching of forgiveness ended generational blood feuding.

I think Christianity became popular because it gave a false sense of hope and salvation that a spiritual figure would fix the world and your personal problems, then a certain power hungry bunch saw it could be used to control people through this doctrine of hope and salvation. 

The perfect storm.....

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17 hours ago, Piney said:

I think Christianity became popular because it gave a false sense of hope and salvation that a spiritual figure would fix the world and your personal problems, then a certain power hungry bunch saw it could be used to control people through this doctrine of hope and salvation. 

The perfect storm.....

And the joining fees were very reasonable.

Anyone could become a Christian. Women, slaves, all those who got the wrong end of the stick. It wasn't just for the elites. 

Bit of libertarian value in there too. Meek inheriting the earth and all that. Wide appeal. 

Edited by psyche101
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4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Bit of libertarian value in there too. Meek inheriting the earth and all that. Wide appeal. 

That was added later when someone put Buddhist teachings in Jesus's mouth. 

Like I said before. Matthew and Luke were a bogus biographies wrapped around a wisdom book purported to be Jesus's.

I think it was a Alexandrian Greco-Buddhist one based on the edicts of Ashoka.

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On 9/5/2022 at 7:45 PM, zep73 said:

Had to read up on Hypatia. Can't see the relevance. People are people. You may be able to control the large majority, but there are always exceptions.

    Me too, she was amazing!   She invented the astrolab.?     I copied this bit>.   Hypatia was a Neoplatonist, believing that mathematics has a spiritual aspect, divided among the four branches of arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music. She thought that numbers are the sacred language of the universe

  her last words before her body broke on the rack were…” for thee lord”.      ?

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33 minutes ago, lightly said:

    Me too, she was amazing!   She invented the astrolab.?     I copied this bit>.   Hypatia was a Neoplatonist, believing that mathematics has a spiritual aspect, divided among the four branches of arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music. She thought that numbers are the sacred language of the universe

  her last words before her body broke on the rack were…” for thee lord”.      ?

Actually, in March 415 AD, she was murdered on the streets of Alexandria by a mob of Christians led by a man named Peter, a Lector. Her story was transmogrified over the centuries into which she was inserted as a martyr to science, the last of the Hellenes and even a Christian martyr. Justin Martyr created quite a craze, didn't he?

Hypatia - Wikipedia

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12 hours ago, Piney said:

That was added later when someone put Buddhist teachings in Jesus's mouth. 

Like I said before. Matthew and Luke were a bogus biographies wrapped around a wisdom book purported to be Jesus's.

I think it was a Alexandrian Greco-Buddhist one based on the edicts of Ashoka.

I rather think that far more ancient Zoroastrianism had a much greater influence on Christianity than any vague Buddhist notions gleaned from Hellenistic philosophers who never even mention the Buddha.

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