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Did the Romans invent Jesus?


zep73

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16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

Yes we are in agreement, crumples up thesis on intergalactic influence on religious constructs and perceptual differences and throws on fire.

I am just curious about how or why Will has been influenced the way he has been I am not arguing about the validity of the bible or Jesus because I am trying to direct Will into a discussion without trying to make him feel threatened which is difficult to start with because he thinks I am trying to set him up in some way for something.

In reality I can’t say he is more Urantian than Christian as he is not an active member in either community , that said I will not discount his honesty about his belief in Jesus. He has an interesting perspective to me because like the Mormons the beliefs in the something more that the UB offers and yet thinks the bible which both afterlife Jesus adaptations are based on is corrupt.

I am not interested really in discussing with him the validity of his belief but am interested in the thought processes of how he can say there are differences between the 2 that he cannot specifically state and still says they are both true and valid. If so why not quote from both sources if equally valid and support the same point?I was just looking for a way to get an open conversation with him even if it doesn’t look likely.

Sigh, things have been stale in this section and thought I would try anyway.

People have been trying to get an open converstation with Will for a very long time, and it never happens.  Either he is unable or uninterested.

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1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

how he can say there are differences between the 2 that he cannot specifically state and still says they are both true and valid. 

 

Jay, this is how it goes.

Haven't you noticed? In this world everything is a lie and at the same time, everything is true.

Isn't it fun?

This has occurred because someone high in universe authority a very long time ago for the first time said that the following is indisputably true.

There is no God.

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Jay, this is how it goes.

Haven't you noticed? In this world everything is a lie and at the same time, everything is true.

Isn't it fun?

This occurred because someone high in authority a very long time ago for the first time said that the following is indisputably true.

There is no God.

 

 

 

Hi Will

By now you should know what I think god describes so am not here to discuss whether god exists or not. You exist and you believe in god, great so do billions of others and most don’t have the same religion or same understanding of what is taught and what is believed.

They aren’t here and you are and fortunately for me you have an interesting abstract belief system.

Truth and lies are either or not both and can be subjected to objective analysis. My personal ethics are based on experience involving dealing with other humans that believe things that I don’t.

I have always had the gift of gab and most people are quite comfortable around me which is something others wanted to use to make money like insurance sales. I didn’t like using my ability to communicate and left I don’t and never have advertised or marketed my businesses as it has always been word of mouth through other clients and keeps me busy.

I accept that people are different from me period in one aspect or another or more likely in more than one way so don’t have a lot of inhibitions about what people believe unless I think there is reason for concern or professional help.

Have you read the Book of Mormon to start with? If you haven’t and are unfamiliar then don’t bother but if you have an interested to know what your personal observations were that made it true and valid compared to the UB which you also state is true and valid. If they both are and you are familiar with both then would like you to show the distinction between them and would be interested in knowing why you favour one over the other.

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35 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Have you read the Book of Mormon to start with? If you haven’t and are unfamiliar then don’t bother but if you have an interested to know what your personal observations were that made it true and valid compared to the UB which you also state is true and valid. If they both are and you are familiar with both then would like you to show the distinction between them and would be interested in knowing why you favour one over the other.

 

Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon. At least I tried to. At about the halfway point, if I remember correctly, I just couldn't continue to read it anymore. It was during that period of time when I was first reading the UB that I thought along with as many of the other religious books I had in my possession, I should read The Book of Mormon too.

As I've already stated, I have not met many people who are as honest and sincere as Mormons. I want to make that clear.

As far as I'm concerned, there are many distinct differences between Mormon traditional belief, what their book says and what is contained in the text of the UB.

Although within the text of the UB besides quoting the Bible and almost every other religious text, contemporary and ancient, not one word from The Book of Mormon nor anything about Mormonism at all. Of all the comparisons made with the other world religions, Mormonism is practically the only one that's left out of being mentioned in the UB. I believe there's a certain significance to that fact.

Although because of my association with Mormons as friends and business associates I would say my familiarity with their religion is adequate. Especially in regard to how high a place they put Jesus of Nazareth within the things they believe.

Of all the things outlined in the UB none is more significant than what it says about the creator God of the universe and his human incarnation. Before I ever found the UB I was already highly interested in Jesus. I just had to know what he was all about. After having discovered the UB, I was completely blown away by what it said about him. And how high a place he occupied. According to the text of the UB anyways. This meant a lot to me.

Another aspect that interested me were the things written in the text of the UB that explains how human religion evolves. Especially how they evolve in primitive times.

It's because of those two things, Jesus, as revealed in the UB and how human religions evolve as revealed in the UB that I have drawn a line between the Book of Mormon and the Urantia Book.

They are two completely different things even though they have some things in common. And as far as I'm concerned, each of them are valid as well as anything else that promotes an understanding of the universal teachings of spiritual truth attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

Yes we are in agreement, crumples up thesis on intergalactic influence on religious constructs and perceptual differences and throws on fire.

I am just curious about how or why Will has been influenced the way he has been I am not arguing about the validity of the bible or Jesus because I am trying to direct Will into a discussion without trying to make him feel threatened which is difficult to start with because he thinks I am trying to set him up in some way for something.

In reality I can’t say he is more Urantian than Christian as he is not an active member in either community , that said I will not discount his honesty about his belief in Jesus. He has an interesting perspective to me because like the Mormons the beliefs in the something more that the UB offers and yet thinks the bible which both afterlife Jesus adaptations are based on is corrupt.

I am not interested really in discussing with him the validity of his belief but am interested in the thought processes of how he can say there are differences between the 2 that he cannot specifically state and still says they are both true and valid. If so why not quote from both sources if equally valid and support the same point?I was just looking for a way to get an open conversation with him even if it doesn’t look likely.

Sigh, things have been stale in this section and thought I would try anyway.

You're asking too much of Will who has difficultly expressing his beliefs in his own words. Also, if you had read the Urantia Book/Papers you would understand why you can't be both a conventional Nicene Christian and a Urantian. It's for much the same reason the mormon church isn't a member of the National Council of Churches. 

Edited by Hammerclaw
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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon. At least I tried to. At about the halfway point, if I remember correctly, I just couldn't continue to read it anymore. It was during that period of time when I was first reading the UB that I thought along with as many of the other religious books I had in my possession, I should read The Book of Mormon too.

Hi Will 

Thanks for the response, I did many years ago as it seemed I was quite popular with their recruit teams so read it so that I was able to discuss it to some degree just to be sociable .:yes:

They are a fun lot 2 guys show up when I am working on a car and next 2 guys are car guys show you to talk hen I am fabricating and welding. Next time a couple of welders show up when I am drywalling. They tried to get me to go to school in Utah.

Also met a JW woman that because she was a woman wasn’t supposed to see me more than initial contact so she would drag a couple of guys with to share in the discussion, Showed up with a bus load one day.:lol:

Yes there are great people in every religion and that is not really the point of this discussion and neither is the validity in a belief in god, Jesus or the afterlife and more about what actually drew you it. The Mormon version of Jesus in America would have held enough appeal to you to finish reading the book and your answer is not based on what the book says but how their interpretation is reflected in their lives and how they express themselves.

2 hours ago, Will Due said:

Of all the things outlined in the UB none is more significant than what it says about the creator God of the universe and his human incarnation. Before I ever found the UB I was already highly interested in Jesus. I just had to know what he was all about. After having discovered the UB, I was completely blown away by what it said about him. And how high a place he occupied. According to the text of the UB anyways. This meant a lot to me.

 

Okay great this is more in line with what Icam interested in. So basically you already had some leanings to what Jesus said during a time of question or some difficulties and the extra bits found in the UB sealed the deal then.

Was it Just the expanded history of the Jesus character or did the alien aspect also appeal to you? If so how much of your perspective do you think it influenced?

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On 9/21/2022 at 7:44 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Many people call themselves Christian that have never belonged to a church they just read a book and interpret it themselves. That doesn’t mean that they have a solid understanding of what a Christian is especially if there is no fellowship. Does the bible not say that whenever 2 or more gather in my name that is the church?

The whole religion is based on fellowship and community the individual has no power, even Jesus did not walk alone he recruited 12 other guys to walk with him.

I am not judging you we are discussing root philosophies of how religions work and being a loner is not the idea that religions teach. They teach you to be a part of a group, a part of something more. They do not want a lonely believer to stand on their own creating their own religious ideologies about THEIR religion as it has a structure.

The UB has an organization and does teach if you become a part of their community just because you chose not to be a part of that organization does not change that it exists or have a mission every business does.

Don’t get offended about me referring to religious organizations as business as they are financial institutions where money changes hands.

I can understand your desire to be a rebel without a cause by standing alone and teaching yourself and as evidenced here you come to bring the word as you preach about your belief. Ultimately you have become your own church and wish to teach your interpretation of how the UB made god real to you. This is not criticism as they are observations about your participation here in the forum

I had hoped that you would be more open to discussing the technical differences of Mormonism and the UB objectively as they are both add on stories to the bible that travel a different route. All you are willing to say is I accept everything everyone says and everything is true no matter what religion they follow which is something that has not been so far evidenced given several years of observing and participating in discussions with you.

You have shown some deeply imbedded resentment at times when under pressure that does not demonstrate acceptance of other ideologies. Do you accept my interpretation of what god means as being true as well? If not why? You are more than welcome to ask questions or issue challenge about it. Be prewarned that I have no written doctrine to follow so I won’t be quoting verse. There is no entity to show or claim did this or did that but there is ample evidence to show what my perspective of what god is.  I don’t have a message to preach all I ask is that one thinks and creates as that is what our nature is.

:clap::nw: Word! :D

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It scares me that we are at the end of a dark age where predictions have been true, and have to adjust quickly to knowledge of dreams that isn't even there yet, and the end is nigh, seems like prophecy may be fulfilled and since there aren't any real interpretations I've read that aren't the author's fancy its hard to say what exactly that will mean for any individual. 

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1 minute ago, trevor borocz johnson said:

It scares me that we are at the end of a dark age where predictions have been true, and have to adjust quickly to knowledge of dreams that isn't even there yet, and the end is nigh, seems like prophecy may be fulfilled and since there aren't any real interpretations I've read that aren't the author's fancy its hard to say what exactly that will mean for any individual. 

You just invalidated the prophecies in your own words, so quit buying what fear mongers are selling.  

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

You just invalidated the prophecies in your own words, so quit buying what fear mongers are selling.

I don't believe in fear mongers I believe in the crazy ones whose word came from caves and things.

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2 hours ago, trevor borocz johnson said:

It scares me that we are at the end of a dark age where predictions have been true, and have to adjust quickly to knowledge of dreams that isn't even there yet, and the end is nigh, seems like prophecy may be fulfilled and since there aren't any real interpretations I've read that aren't the author's fancy its hard to say what exactly that will mean for any individual. 

You just made that all up, didn't you?

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On 9/21/2022 at 7:21 PM, Hammerclaw said:

You're asking too much of Will who has difficultly expressing his beliefs in his own words. Also, if you had read the Urantia Book/Papers you would understand why you can't be both a conventional Nicene Christian and a Urantian. It's for much the same reason the mormon church isn't a member of the National Council of Churches. 

Hi Hammer

Did mean to reply sooner and slipped my mind. I do understand the difference and no I have not read the whole book and what I did read was to research for discussion purposes with Will when he first started being active in this section of the forum. You and I understand the difference of the UB and Christianity or Mormonism and you are better versed than I am in Christian history and doctrine.

I have no intent in trying to validate any religious ideology or deny it as my interest is the process of reasoning involved in deciding to accept something that is in conflict like the bible and the UB and conclude they are both true. I understand that there were likely some levels of stress be it emotional or otherwise that influence how one reasons.

How Will’s belief works in his life may have little variance with others that have similar or different religious constructs so the validity of what they believe in doesn’t really matter just how belief affects them does and that is the part that does interest me.

There are times Will is more open about expressing himself about his thoughts so will grant him that and was why I tried to involve him.:):tu:

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On 9/21/2022 at 8:56 PM, Will Due said:

And as far as I'm concerned, each of them are valid as well as anything else that promotes an understanding of the universal teachings of spiritual truth attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I can understand your desire to be a rebel without a cause by standing alone and teaching yourself and as evidenced here you come to bring the word as you preach about your belief.

This is something I'm curious about Will.  J is exactly right, there really is no denying that some of your comments here are kinda 'preaching'.  I don't mean that in a 'you're violating the forum rules concerning preaching" kind of way, I don't really think your comments are a 'problem' like real preaching is.  But it seems like you post comments on many topics here that concern Christianity with what the UB has to say about it.  You're not forcing it down anyone's throat, I think sometimes you've even hidden it, but to do that to the extent you do without any deeper argument as to why it's true does come off as preachy.

Regardless, like I said I don't see that as a problem but I do have a question.  I'm not going to spend time looking in depth at the UB, Jimi linkage or not, but from what you've said here it seems to be at least Jesus-adjacent; there's some odd-to-me sci-fi stuff it seems but there does seem to be some overlap between it and the New Testament.  My question is in the UB do you have an obligation as a believer, as you do as a Christian according to the Bible, to proselytize and spread the word of the 'gospel' of Urantia?  Is there a parallel of that in the UB?  And you may see where I'm going... by any chance does it also say anything about 'dusting off your feet' and giving up if you have no takers? ;)

Sounds like you have more encounters with Mormons than I, I'm a long way from Utah, but I also don't know how strong the directive is for them to spread the word either.  I've only known a couple Mormons and they never tried to sell it to me.  I will say and I think I've heard this from many people that Mormons despite having some odd beliefs seem to be exceptionally nice and generous people.  Don't know how true it is, my sample is tiny but fulfilled that stereotype, but that matters zillions more times than their personal mythology.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So many theories about Jesus...and the sad thing is that we will probably never had the final truth.

When I was teenager I read a book called The Hiram Key. I was fascinated with theory of two jesus'es...but not sure how much is it corroborated with evidence. Maybe I should read it again. Did anyone try it?

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On 9/23/2022 at 7:45 PM, Liquid Gardens said:

My question is in the UB do you have an obligation as a believer, as you do as a Christian according to the Bible, to proselytize and spread the word of the 'gospel' of Urantia?  

 

It's not an obligation. It's a burning desire to help my fellow travelers. Especially those like all of you who participate in discussing religious things in a place like this.

According to the UB the good news isn't that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. That was a mistake his followers established  immediately after his execution. Instead, the good news is that God is our Father and everyone is either our brother or sister. Faith in this alone, is all that's required.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

It's not an obligation. It's a burning desire to help my fellow travelers. Especially those like all of you who participate in discussing religious things in a place like this.

According to the UB the good news isn't that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. That was a mistake his followers established  immediately after his execution. Instead, the good news is that God is our Father and everyone is either our brother or sister. Faith in this alone, is all that's required.

Except that you’re not helping anyone by preaching an early 1900’s piece of religious fiction as some valid reinterpretation of the Bible and Judeo-Christian beliefs. It’s not and that’s likely why the original writer/s didn’t have the guts to take credit for their compilation. 
 

cormac

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5 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

It's not an obligation. It's a burning desire to help my fellow travelers. Especially those like all of you who participate in discussing religious things in a place like this.

According to the UB the good news isn't that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. That was a mistake his followers established  immediately after his execution. Instead, the good news is that God is our Father and everyone is either our brother or sister. Faith in this alone, is all that's required.

 

 

Hi Will

Say I said the red pill(bible) told a different story than the UBlue pill does

Edited by jmccr8
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13 hours ago, Will Due said:

It's not an obligation. It's a burning desire to help my fellow travelers. Especially those like all of you who participate in discussing religious things in a place like this.

Okay, although I'd say that there are extremely few conversations that involve or people participating here that seem to need any 'help'.  To me for Christians at least, I think there's something a little contradictory about sharing the gospel and being humble - there's nothing humble about claiming to have the ultimate answer to everything and be in connection with the supreme source of good and morality, nor in suggesting to people that they require help.  But Christians also have been directly instructed to spread the word (and to give up with the unreceptive) and thus have another reason for evangelizing.  If you don't have that directive and just think you need to help others realize the truth of your religious beliefs then it could come across as kinda prideful.

14 hours ago, Will Due said:

Instead, the good news is that God is our Father and everyone is either our brother or sister. Faith in this alone, is all that's required.

That's not a statement that requires faith, it's just a perspective, anybody can do it religious or not. Everyone is not literally brother and sister, we reserve those words for a different relationship, so it's figure of speech.  I don't need God or faith to view everyone as my brethren, it's an attitude, it's not like believing something literal like that Jesus died for my sins which does require faith.

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22 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Okay, although I'd say that there are extremely few conversations that involve or people participating here that seem to need any 'help'.  To me for Christians at least, I think there's something a little contradictory about sharing the gospel and being humble - there's nothing humble about claiming to have the ultimate answer to everything and be in connection with the supreme source of good and morality, nor in suggesting to people that they require help.  But Christians also have been directly instructed to spread the word (and to give up with the unreceptive) and thus have another reason for evangelizing.  If you don't have that directive and just think you need to help others realize the truth of your religious beliefs then it could come across as kinda prideful.

That's not a statement that requires faith, it's just a perspective, anybody can do it religious or not. Everyone is not literally brother and sister, we reserve those words for a different relationship, so it's figure of speech.  I don't need God or faith to view everyone as my brethren, it's an attitude, it's not like believing something literal like that Jesus died for my sins which does require faith.

 

There are other people who read the posts in this forum besides forum members.

Maybe, after reading some of the posts here, they might end up discovering the thing they've been looking for.

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

There are other people who read the posts in this forum besides forum members.

Maybe, after reading some of the posts here, they might end up discovering the thing they've been looking for.

 

 

 

At best, for me your posts come across as one who holds to and preaches an anonymous opinion based on personal preference ( faith) in other words, the UB you have decided arbitrarily (not on anything fact based) is worthwhile for you. 
 

To me, it seems you gravitate to fringe ideas, yet, they are ideas that lack substance or credibility, With that being said, how you use them in your life might serve you. I actually do know a person who took the ideas of Scientology (cult) and used them in a way that turned his life around on a personal level, but once he refined his own behaviors, he dropped the beliefs. 
 

All the best. 

Edited by Sherapy
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5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

At best, for me your posts come across as one who holds to and preaches an anonymous opinion based on personal preference ( faith) in other words, the UB you have decided arbitrarily (not on anything fact based) is worthwhile for you. 
 

To me, it seems you gravitate to fringe ideas, yet, they are ideas that lack substance or credibility, With that being said, how you use them in your life might serve you. I actually do know a person who took the ideas of Scientology (cult) and used them in a way that turned his life around on a personal level, but once he refined his own behaviors, he dropped the beliefs. 
 

All the best. 

Likely because it says what he wants to hear, nothing more IMO. 
 

cormac

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