'Water witches' pit science against folklore

[Oniomancer]

50 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I posted it on the previous page. It a Dawkins experiment. 

The applicant's were happy with the conditions to begin with.

What's more interesting and I thought worthy of discussion was that the applicants were all genuinely surprised that they failed as badly as they did. I don't think they question their water divining abilities after the test, one applicant said maybe god is having a laugh. 

But the only complaints I heard were after the fact. All were convinced they would pass with flying colours and were genuinely surprised when they did not. 

Ah. Actual post # nine in this thread. Got it.

Similar scaling problem but in this case they seemed to have a definite idea as to the nature of the target. I'm curious how many of the testees were strict water dowsers vs. multi-target, IE those who can apparently use it to locate other items besides water. A comparison could be made with a metal detectorist with their discriminator on the wrong setting.

This is the same type of skeptic-oriented testing I dislike. They're like "oh, well, we got a negative result. That's that then." I much prefer the sort of Mythbusters-style test-to-destruction approach to account for all variables before arriving at a conclusion.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Oniomancer

[Oniomancer]

Granted though, Mythbusters-style testing would probably entail hurling dowsers from a makeshift catapult.

[+joc]

56 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I honestly don't think gravity has the ability to act on something as small as a piece of wire and have us recognise it. Maybe some people are super sensitive to gravity but that seems unlikely. 

As I was saying above, the applicants in post nine are also very sure of their abilities yet when tested they didn't work. Why do you think they didn't manage to detect water under a controlled situation?

It isn't just water...it's electrical underground lines as well.   As far as dowsing...kind of like drilling for oil...Hit and miss...but there is a definite connection between water and gravity.

You know me...I have said many times...belief is what we do when we don't know...I don't believe in it...I know, because I have literally found thousands of pipes over the last 30 years with two bent flags.  Not belief.

 

[psyche101]

39 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

Ah. Actual post # nine in this thread. Got it.

39 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

Similar scaling problem but in this case they seemed to have a definite idea as to the nature of the target. I'm curious how many of the testees were strict water dowsers vs. multi-target, IE those who can apparently use it to locate other items besides water. A comparison could be made with a metal detectorist with their discriminator on the wrong setting.

What would be considered a minimum? Does water have to be flowing? Can one detect something like an underground well? 

Now that you raise the pont I do wonder how surfaces like ice might affect the result. Although divining something like Vostok would be quite an achievement. 

I did watch the entire episode but I don't recall if any applicants specified a specific divining method.

39 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

This is the same type of skeptic-oriented testing I dislike. They're like "oh, well, we got a negative result. That's that then." I much prefer the sort of Mythbusters-style test-to-destruction approach to account for all variables before arriving at a conclusion.

I though what was interesting was the friendly atmosphere between testers and applicants and how Dawkins approached them individually to ask them for their own explanation as to why the experiment failed. I thought that seemed pretty fair 

He does something similar with astrology, it's quite interesting. The only person who's horoscope didn't fit was the one person with the only matching star sign. 

28 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

Granted though, Mythbusters-style testing would probably entail hurling dowsers from a makeshift catapult.

Lol but fun to watch....... You should suggest it to them...... 

Edited December 10, 2021 by psyche101

[jethrofloyd]

[psyche101]

14 minutes ago, joc said:

It isn't just water...it's electrical underground lines as well.   As far as dowsing...kind of like drilling for oil...Hit and miss...but there is a definite connection between water and gravity.

So it has to be flowing to detect?

14 minutes ago, joc said:

You know me...I have said many times...belief is what we do when we don't know...I don't believe in it...I know, because I have literally found thousands of pipes over the last 30 years with two bent flags.  Not belief.

I don't doubt that, but it is interesting as to how the people in the test felt the same. Yet they didn't do better than chance.

[+joc]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

So it has to be flowing to detect?

I don't doubt that, but it is interesting as to how the people in the test felt the same. Yet they didn't do better than chance.

What kind of test could I do for you?  

[psyche101]

39 minutes ago, joc said:

What kind of test could I do for you?  

Would you do something like the tests in the Dawkins experiment?

The people who did volunteer were very confident in their abilities. 

[ChrLzs]

Excuse me butting in.. but I'd love to hear from divining believers - have you actually thought about this 'holisticly'?  What sort of physical clues might there be, that would increase the chances of a person's knowledge of where water might be?  I can think of quite a few, and some are subtle....

And yes, there's a reason I ask - my grandpa (died about 40 years ago) used to be a very successful diviner, and to our family (esp my mum) he would happily admit that anyone could do it if he showed them, he didn't need the sticks (he used both wooden and thick wire ones), and with a twinkle in his eye hinted that he already knew where to look in most parts of his region, and that there were many clues the average person would never spot.  There seemed to be a general consensus of everyone who knew him well that he didn't claim to have any mystical powers and he was quite careful and modest in how he sold his skills...  He was also rather lucky to live in a region where underground water was prolific...  

If you do set up a test, please let us know how you would go about it - I love looking for ways that people might 'cheat' or spot clues at such a test...  Science is fun, but it's also hard to do right.

[+susieice]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:03 PM, zep73 said:

I'll test it (the initial flow) in my bathroom sink one of these days, and get back to you. If I can make it whirl in both directions, will that make any difference to you?

Your water will drain clockwise just like mine unless you do something to block it. Sink, tub, toilet...clockwise. If you block it, that's using artificial means. It will reverse itself. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by susieice

[ChrLzs]

3 minutes ago, susieice said:

Your water will drain clockwise unless you do something to block it. Sink, tub, toilet...clockwise.

That's a bit of an Internet myth, I'm afraid.  The Coriolis effect is real, but only really affects large bodies of water, earth's atmosphere, etc..  For sinks and toilets and other smaller items, the design of the container and the location of the plughole and the velocity and angle of water ingress and egress, will determine which way...

[+joc]

7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Would you do something like the tests in the Dawkins experiment?

The people who did volunteer were very confident in their abilities. 

I know I could find the bottle of water.  It isn't paranormal...it isn't   God   It is physics.  Akin to why a compass points to north.  

I made this video just now...I am not manipulating the wire in any way.  It isn't magic...it is the magnetic pull of the water.

Maybe @zep73 can explain it.  I cannot.  I think it has something to do with the density of water...but I do not know.

 

I think maybe it has to do with the relationship between Dark Matter and Water.

Edited December 10, 2021 by joc

[zep73]

3 hours ago, joc said:

Maybe @zep73 can explain it.

That's curious. Try to repeat it without the water. The exact same setup, just remove the bottle, and put it far away.

[zep73]

9 hours ago, susieice said:

Your water will drain clockwise just like mine unless you do something to block it. Sink, tub, toilet...clockwise. If you block it, that's using artificial means. It will reverse itself. 

We'll see, when I get it done.

I'm going to stir it in both directions (one at a time), but not going to block it in any way.

[+susieice]

1 hour ago, zep73 said:

We'll see, when I get it done.

I'm going to stir it in both directions (one at a time), but not going to block it in any way.

You will still need an artificial means to get it to drain in the opposite direction.

[Harte]

9 hours ago, joc said:

I know I could find the bottle of water.  It isn't paranormal...it isn't   God   It is physics.  Akin to why a compass points to north.  

I made this video just now...I am not manipulating the wire in any way.  It isn't magic...it is the magnetic pull of the water.

Maybe @zep73 can explain it.  I cannot.  I think it has something to do with the density of water...but I do not know.

 

I think maybe it has to do with the relationship between Dark Matter and Water.

Water has no "magnetic pull."

They do this with wood too you know.

Now tell us about the magnetic properties of wood.

Harte

[+joc]

6 hours ago, zep73 said:

That's curious. Try to repeat it without the water. The exact same setup, just remove the bottle, and put it far away.

Thanks but I think I had a better idea.  I took the same bent wire, and placed it inside the body of a regular Bic pen after I had carefully placed the pen body in a vice grip and leveled it.  Just the slightest touch and it would move freely.  

Then I moved The Bottle of Water around it and over it and under it and....nothing.  I could not get the damn wired to budge one degree...absolutely no movement.

So...I think I disproved my original video.  That however does not explain the water in the pipe trick.  Tomorrow is Saturday.  I will take a 20' length of pvc pipe and fill it with water under pressure.  Then I will video myself walking back and forth over it holding the flags.  Then I will blindfold myself and do the same thing.

The only thing that makes sense is that while we 'think' we are not controlling the wire...we are subconsciously because we want the wire to move a certain way.  So subconsciously, the muscles of arms and hands are being manipulated by the mind to achieve a desired result.  That's what I think about this experiment.

Dousing for water  underground.   Hmmmm....  First I have to prove that the water can move wires.  I will attempt to do that tomorrow.  

 

[zep73]

19 minutes ago, joc said:

The only thing that makes sense is that while we 'think' we are not controlling the wire...we are subconsciously because we want the wire to move a certain way.  So subconsciously, the muscles of arms and hands are being manipulated by the mind to achieve a desired result.  That's what I think about this experiment.

My explanation for your first video, with the bottle in the chair, is Newton's 3rd Law of Motion: For every action there is a reaction. When you move your hand from one side to the other, the wire reacts by sliding opposite. It's the same principle as when you wave a flag.

Edited December 10, 2021 by zep73

[Dejarma]

On 7/29/2021 at 2:20 PM, Buzz_Light_Year said:

No it isn't. I can do it and I can also find underground electric and sewer lines.

prove it

[ChrLzs]

Kudos to you Joc, for thinking hard about all this.

3 hours ago, joc said:

The only thing that makes sense is that while we 'think' we are not controlling the wire...we are subconsciously because we want the wire to move a certain way.  So subconsciously, the muscles of arms and hands are being manipulated by the mind to achieve a desired result.  That's what I think about this experiment.

Nice!  The only way to ensure you're not doing it subconsciously would be multiple pipes and someone else does the filling (preferably a JP or NP) while out of your sight/hearing, and the pipes are setup in such way that there are zero clues, inc. things like dirt or wet spill drops that might show footprints of where the filler went, condensation on the pipe, a bend in the pipe, even a faint shadow - some pvc pipes are a bit translucent, etc, etc.

There are so many traps here, just ask Uri Geller - he's the master of that sort of stuff, although all his cheating is 100% deliberate....

3 hours ago, joc said:

Dousing for water  underground.   Hmmmm....  First I have to prove that the water can move wires.  I will attempt to do that tomorrow.  

If water causes an effect, it will be tiny, but if it can be felt, it will be measurable... but to do so the wires would need to be gently balanced and hanging from fishing line or some similar delicate arrangement that allowed unrestricted movement, under cover so no wind, etc.

 

Like I said, good science is really hard, and this is especially true when you are talking about tiny possible movements / measurements that could have multiple causes... 

Edited December 11, 2021 by ChrLzs

[+joc]

11 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Kudos to you Joc, for thinking hard about all this.

Nice!  The only way to ensure you're not doing it subconsciously would be multiple pipes and someone else does the filling (preferably a JP or NP) while out of your sight/hearing, and the pipes are setup in such way that there are zero clues, inc. things like dirt or wet spill drops that might show footprints of where the filler went, condensation on the pipe, a bend in the pipe, even a faint shadow - some pvc pipes are a bit translucent, etc, etc.

There are so many traps here, just ask Uri Geller - he's the master of that sort of stuff, although all his cheating is 100% deliberate....

If water causes an effect, it will be tiny, but if it can be felt, it will be measurable... but to do so the wires would need to be gently balanced and hanging from fishing line or some similar delicate arrangement that allowed unrestricted movement, under cover so no wind, etc.

 

Like I said, good science is really hard, and this is especially true when you are talking about tiny possible movements / measurements that could have multiple causes... 

Thanks!  I will take all of that into consideration.  I don't really think the bottle under a bucket is a fair scientific thing either.  It does prove one thing though...a gallon of water doesn't have any noticeable effect.  But the other reality is that no matter how long you hold a cigarette lighter under a pot of water, it is never going to boil.  But even a major thunderstorm will not slow down a roaring forest fire.  There has to be a connection between mass and density somewhere in that mix.

I am not trying to convince the world...but if I can convince you...well, that's pretty much the same thing as convincing the whole world I would think.

[XenoFish]

https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

[+joc]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

nope

 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, joc said:

nope

 

Whatever.

[Harte]

4 hours ago, joc said:

Thanks!  I will take all of that into consideration.  I don't really think the bottle under a bucket is a fair scientific thing either.  It does prove one thing though...a gallon of water doesn't have any noticeable effect.  But the other reality is that no matter how long you hold a cigarette lighter under a pot of water, it is never going to boil.  But even a major thunderstorm will not slow down a roaring forest fire.  There has to be a connection between mass and density somewhere in that mix.

There is. It's called specific heat capacity.

And you can boil water with a lighter. Just not a large mass of it - unless the container has a very high specific heat constant, in which case it won't lose your lighter's heat input to the surrounding atmosphere very rapidly, like metal containers do.

But rather than a lighter, I'd recommend using a candle so you don't have to hold it constantly.

Harte