Heaven and Hell

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

To legitimately dismiss a claim you MUST have counter evidences to prove it false 

No, unless you meant to say something else and said dismiss instead.

The force of Hitchens's razor (already quoted by @Nuclear Wessel) is that without evidence, there is nothing for anybody to do with a claim. That's what dismissal is: just leaving it.

Of course, you disagree with that because you believe there is a privileged way of knowledge without the trouble of providing evidence: revelation from God. It says something about the quality of that way of knowing that your denomination disagrees with other people who've received the identical revelation about whether Saturday or Sunday is God's one true day off.

But hey, just because you can't work out that urgent complex issue is no reason to dismiss your unsupported-by-evidence preaching about simple things like how other animals think.

Edited October 16, 2021 by eight bits

[The_Phantom_Stranger]

The actual day off is based on the Lunar month and is not actually Saturday or Sunday, but both and neither.

[+Pettytalk]

How easily we SLIP INTO DARKNESS, as we only have to turn off the lights/Enlightenment given to us by the really WISE. Actually I was meaning to address the digression that many here easily slip into, as we only have to go off-topic.

I note lots of quotes here attributed to persons thought wise by those posting them. However, I recall hearing Socrates stating that "God only is Wise."

SOCRATES: "And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:–Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads......"

Heaven and Hell?

SOCRATES: "Now I, Callicles, am persuaded of the truth of these things, and I consider how I shall present my SOUL whole and undefiled before the judge in that day. Renouncing the honors at which the world aims, I desire only to know the truth, and to live as well as I can, and, when I die, to die as well as I can. And, to the utmost of my power, I exhort all other men to do the same. And, in return for your exhortation of me, I exhort you also to take part in the great WAR, which is the COMBAT of life, and greater than every other earthly conflict "

JESUS: "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his SOUL? Or what shall a man give in return for his SOUL?"

Hell is outer DARKNESS.

Matthew 25: For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And throw that worthless servant into the outer DARKNESS, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 5: Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have PAID the last penny.
 

Slippin' into darkness, yeah
When I heard my mother say
I was slippin' into darkness
When I heard my mother say
Hey, what'd she say what'd she say
You've been slippin' into darkness (Wo ho ho ho)

Pretty soon you gonna PAY, hey

 

[+Hammerclaw]

God had nothing to do with Sunday. When the 7 day week was established in the Second Century C.E., it was just another day except that the followers of Sol Invictus, an Eastern mystery cult popular among the Romans, began rising on that day to greet the sun, ceremoniously. Roman Christians co-opted the day for their own religion, not surprisingly. The cult of Sol Invictus, in the meantime, gained in popularity over the years and was raised to the status of an official Roman religion in 274 C.E.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[The_Phantom_Stranger]

I guess it is somewhat recorded that the Jews were keeping Saturday as the Sabbath before and during the time of Jesus. The Romans spies and used this to their advantage to taking Israel 60 years before the Year of the Lord. I think they learned this from the Babylonians. If they had kept their Lunar Sabbath as God intended, they might have stood more of a chance before the Roman Empire.

Quote

Thence he proceeded against Syria Palaestina, because its inhabitants had ravaged Phoenicia. Their rulers were two brothers, Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, who were quarrelling themselves, as it chanced, and were creating factions in the cities on account of the priesthood (for so they called their kingdom) of their god, whoever he is. 3 Pompey immediately won over Hyrcanus without a battle, since the latter had no force worthy of note; and by shutting up Aristobulus in a certain place he compelled him to come to terms, and when he would surrender neither the money nor the garrison, he threw him into chains. After this he more easily overcame the rest, but had trouble in besieging Jerusalem. 16 1 Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. 2 For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it. As it was, they made an excavation of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing  p127 no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall. 3 The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. 4 Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defence, and all the wealth was plundered. The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/37*.html

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol Just spent the afternoon at the specialist 

blood pressure 120/70; heart beat, perfect and healthy.  (my heartbeat is recorded and transmitted  via my pace maker and can be seen on a graph on a computer )

Its been perfectly regular  since my last check up 12 months ago.   

Again, you seek to impose your own stresses onto others.

   I ENJOY debate. There is no stress involved. 

Indeed I have no emotional investment in this debate  at all,  apart from  humour, and  a sense of irony; and some  disappointment in others .

Try reading my post as  a simple factual explanation. 

It might help.  

 

Interesting that you were triggered (providing an opportunity for you to explore further or not), nota bene: I didn’t mention stress, or your health, you did. You went off on a tangent with “breathe, it will truly help”. With breathing there are many techniques to address all kinds of life’s issues, but in particular, it is sometimes called b3 it is a type of breathing that gets one attention focused on the here and now to help get some distance from the bruised ego or get oneself off a downward spiral in their defensive loop. You are incredibly ego sensitive and become defensive using an active coping technique that allows humans to shirk from the feedback, often it is just to hard to hear that one isn’t Uber amazing 24/7 so our brains tend to default to fight or flight when we perceive an attack whether it is there or not, the good news is one can use CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and apply a perspective that sees feedback as a bridge to personal growth and problem solving, in other words, the feedback can be a viable way to help one see their blind spots it is intended to be positive and constructive and point he/she in a more productive direction. With practice it gets easier. 
 

 
 

I think eighty brings in an excellent pull you have adopted a mental construct from the biblical perspective of LDS on so many things, including that humans are far more superior than animals. Your adopted construct is duly noted, yet, I am not convinced, I observe that animals and babies etc. etc. for that matter are astounding at communicating and getting their needs met with out semantics.

 

All the best. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, eight bits said:

And we seem to have come full circle. Other species do not participate in human language communities. Nobody claims otherwise. It does not follow, except by revelation in some religions, that other animals lack affect, autonomy, intention or intelligence.

Human beings themselves are capable of thought unmediated by language. Even more common is thought combining representations, for example, language and diagrams. There is also in our time a novel human species-specific performance, artificial language. Some artificial languages are provably less expressive than natural language, but nevertheless serve as both vehicles and representations of thoughts.

It is unresponsive to come back with "dogs can't program a database in classic SQL." That any organism can do that proves that something less than human natural language will nevertheless serve as a rich medium of expression - less rich than natural language but plenty rich all the same.

For fans of the Piraha people, the famous "atheists of the Amazon," the supposed distinction of their language is the lack of recursive noun phrases:

the key; the key for the door, the key for the door in the house, the key for the door in the house of Jack, ... indefinitely

Suppose that that description were true of their language. IF SO, then although they are human beings, they would not speak a human natural language, they would only vocalize in some other way that partly resembles a natural language. Would it follow that Piraha could not experience joy?

Follow? No it doesn't. Human natural language is a ridiculously high bar for so modest a cogntive achievement as situationally appropriate affect.

Of course, if God tells us otherwise, then we'll just have to fall in line. He has my email address.

Abstract and conceptual thought is a construct /artefact of language.  if you accept that other animals do not approach human levels of language then this means the y CAN NOT approach our abilty for conceptual and abstract thought   That is why the argument always comes back to this point  

self aware /conscious autonomy Ie the abilty to make self  aware decisions, weighing many possible alternatives,  including  ones based on values and beliefs, rather than responding by instinct or biology  really only exists in beings with human level self  awareness  including a sense of time, permanence, good/evil  etc. There seem to be a few individual animals which might have this abity but in general the y do not 

yes humans can think in images etc, BUT  Thats not language evena language of the mind Without words and slef awareness it is nothing more than brain function Without words the y cannot be   expressed or communicated Eg one might argue that cave paintings express imagery of thought  but before language humans did not construct those images/paintings .  Artificial languages are an advanced construct of  high order self aware intelligence. bIjatlh'a'?  

Not arguing about richness (or diversity) of expression, more about what constitutes language and particularly language involving abstract, symbolic, and conceptual thoughts 

The Piraha are human. Thus their language is human. It goes to the diversity of language.

the Piraha have words and concepts' for "spirit" beings whom the y believe to be real, live near water ways  and who are dangerous.

[jmccr8]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Abstract and conceptual thought is a construct /artefact of language.  if you accept that other animals do not approach human levels of language then this means the y CAN NOT approach our abilty for conceptual and abstract thought   That is why the argument always comes back to this point  

self aware /conscious autonomy Ie the abilty to make self  aware decisions, weighing many possible alternatives,  including  ones based on values and beliefs, rather than responding by instinct or biology  really only exists in beings with human level self  awareness  including a sense of time, permanence, good/evil  etc. There seem to be a few individual animals which might have this abity but in general the y do not 

yes humans can think in images etc, BUT  Thats not language evena language of the mind Without words and slef awareness it is nothing more than brain function Without words the y cannot be   expressed or communicated Eg one might argue that cave paintings express imagery of thought  but before language humans did not construct those images/paintings .  Artificial languages are an advanced construct of  high order self aware intelligence. bIjatlh'a'?  

Not arguing about richness (or diversity) of expression, more about what constitutes language and particularly language involving abstract, symbolic, and conceptual thoughts 

The Piraha are human. Thus their language is human. It goes to the diversity of language.

the Piraha have words and concepts' for "spirit" beings whom the y believe to be real, live near water ways  and who are dangerous.

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

No, unless you meant to say something else and said dismiss instead.

The force of Hitchens's razor (already quoted by @Nuclear Wessel) is that without evidence, there is nothing for anybody to do with a claim. That's what dismissal is: just leaving it.

Of course, you disagree with that because you believe there is a privileged way of knowledge without the trouble of providing evidence: revelation from God. It says something about the quality of that way of knowing that your denomination disagrees with other people who've received the identical revelation about whether Saturday or Sunday is God's one true day off.

But hey, just because you can't work out that urgent complex issue is no reason to dismiss your unsupported-by-evidence preaching about simple things like how other animals think.

This is an argument designed to counter unorthodox or unusual views.

Its also a lazy mans tool. 

it is used to dismiss an argument when the only real way to dismiss it is to prove it false. 

Unless you can prove an argument false you must accept the possibility that it is true .

  eg I argue that there was once  life on mars 

You ask me to prove it 

I say i cant prove it (yet) 

That doesn't make the argument false, or dismiss it. 

to counter it you must prove there was never life on Mars,or else the argument remains legitimate 

lol nup sorry, but even as an atheist raised in debate, use of logic, and argument, I knew   that  one must provide arguments for a counter claim if one seeks to dismiss it  its one of the basic premises of formal debating 

This is a good example, however, of the transference of prejudicial opinion from  one part of a person's experience to all. Ie you infer that god gives me special knowldge which doesn't  require proof That  is dumb. Of course,  if god gave me knowldge I would test it out.  My knowledge comes form reading a lot of the literature on this, for over 60 years  God has never discussed animal self  aware intelligence with me  However "god' (and some excellent teachers)  has helped me understand  the responsibility humans have to all life  and the need to live a life which protects animals and the environment, as far as is practical

You retain biased and incorrect assumption about the influence of Adventism on me 

 it works the other way round Eg as an historian and atheist, i could see the logic and correctness of claiming that (in biblical theology if you believe in it at all ) keeping the seventh day of the week is  one of the most important characteristics of a christian  and of Christianity. It is the central of the foundational commandments of the religion 

It has nothing to do with faith or belief(except in belief in the power of a man over gods word) It comes from  a deconstruction of the text and from  an understanding of human history and the evolution of religions . from the evolution of   Judaism, through early Christianity,  to Catholicism and  to modern times. 

I dont believe it (keeping the Sabbath) is essential, nor that it saves or condemns people (given I dont believe in heaven or hell) )but its historically correct and was only changed on the authority of the pope  That's fine if you accept the role of pope as god one earth but, outside of some Catholics, no one does. 

Personally i dont even keep or observe the  Sabbath.

 I adopted Christianity for social /practical  reasons (Eg it was the only religion practiced anywhere near where I lived)  not for ones based on belief 

Give me evidences that animals FEEL as humans do. ie not  (just) with their bodies but with their minds, using intellectual constructs like romance.  Give me the slightest evidence that your dog can feel for you as you feel for it.   Not just in physical terms but in your (and it's) thoughts . 

[Mr Walker]

13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

weekend again ?  

[SHaYap]

Woof woof... Go Kong go! 

Quote

 

[00.01:40]

~

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

weekend again ?  

Hi Walker

Yes it is the weekend.

Am I drunk? No not yet but it is early and I i might get bored reading pointless posts.

Edited October 17, 2021 by jmccr8

[Guyver]

Sometimes you love people even though you don’t really connect with them, that seems a little hellish.  Then there’s the fact that those of us in California need rain right now so bad, we’re literally burning up.  That’s hellish.  Just saying.

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Yes it is the weekend.

Am I drunk? No not yet but it is early and I i might get bored reading pointless posts.

Maybe it's me .

I just didn't get the point of your GIF. 

[eight bits]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Give me the slightest evidence that your dog can feel for you as you feel for it.

The issue was whether (to name one species) dogs feel and think. If they do, then they feel and think as dogs feel and think. There is no reason why their way of consciousness would be the same as any human's way. Nobody here has proposed such an identical equality.

Except for the revealed word of your denomination's God, there is no foundation for assuming that the human way of doing anything is the only way on earth ever to do that thing. My conviction is that the dogs whom I know feel something for me that it is analogous to what I feel for them, not that we feel the same.

That conviction is founded on experience, both my own and what other people have shared with me. Often with pictures. On this point, then, I have what Mark Twain descrcibed as the quiet confidence of a Christian with four aces.

Your mileage differs? So much the worse for you.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by eight bits

[SHaYap]

34 minutes ago, eight bits said:

So much the worse for you.

Wait till he starts telling everybody about his bird and the bees chat with the family dog that made him believe... 

~

[docyabut2]

On 10/15/2021 at 5:28 PM, docyabut2 said:

to add I `m guessing where is heaven and hell ? in this book of my minster he did passed away to, he says he contacted  katy on the other side  and she says everything you have on your  planet  has its begining here.here is the workshop or factory  of every thing you have now or your going to have 

 

Hi! This Is Katy...: Wallace Tooke: 9780964683501: Amazon.com: Books

 

wish you all could study that book :)and what has the meanings of her words. 

to add the theory of (into this three dimensional activity came the new being).So could it really mean heaven is in the light and of the colors of the earth ?  

[XenoFish]

Here I was thinking that I waste a lot of time on the forum.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Unless you can prove an argument false you must accept the possibility that it is true .

  eg I argue that there was once  life on mars 

You ask me to prove it 

I say i cant prove it (yet) 

That doesn't make the argument false, or dismiss it. 

to counter it you must prove there was never life on Mars,or else the argument remains legitimate 

If you make a claim with no supporting evidence then I don’t need to provide evidence to counter-claim it as false. It is not about whether your argument is actually true or false—it very well may be true, but the fact is that I don’t carry the obligation to provide evidence for my counter-claim if you have not provided evidence for your initial claim. I also don’t have to accept the possibility of it to be true if you provide no grounds for such. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[docyabut2]

Aura - Energy Light that Surrounds Your Physical Body (learnreligions.com)

 

The aura (also referred to as the auric field, radiance, or the eighth chakra) is an electromagnetic field surrounding the human form. People with enhanced psychic ability are able to see the movement and varied colors of the aura. Kirlian photography is a technique that captures the light from the auras of humans and plant life.

[+Hammerclaw]

Kirlian Auras are created by the high voltage charged plate used in the photographic process, ripping electrons off atoms. The air around the photographed object becomes ionized. Any ambient moisture in that air will result in an image of a glowing silhouette around the object, which is, simply, a corona plasma discharge, not some mystical life energy aura generated by the object itself.

What is Kirlian Photography? Aura Photography Revealed | Light Stalking

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Kirlian Auras are created by the high voltage charged plate used in the photographic process, ripping electrons off atoms. The air around the photographed object becomes ionized. Any ambient moisture in that air will result in an image of a glowing silhouette around the object, which is, simply, a corona plasma discharge, not some mystical life energy aura generated by the object itself.

What is Kirlian Photography? Aura Photography Revealed | Light Stalking

This is a Kirlian photo I took myself ( based on cold emission of electrons ) :

 

[+Sherapy]

17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Abstract and conceptual thought is a construct /artefact of language.  if you accept that other animals do not approach human levels of language then this means the y CAN NOT approach our abilty for conceptual and abstract thought   That is why the argument always comes back to this point  

self aware /conscious autonomy Ie the abilty to make self  aware decisions, weighing many possible alternatives,  including  ones based on values and beliefs, rather than responding by instinct or biology  really only exists in beings with human level self  awareness  including a sense of time, permanence, good/evil  etc. There seem to be a few individual animals which might have this abity but in general the y do not 

yes humans can think in images etc, BUT  Thats not language evena language of the mind Without words and slef awareness it is nothing more than brain function Without words the y cannot be   expressed or communicated Eg one might argue that cave paintings express imagery of thought  but before language humans did not construct those images/paintings .  Artificial languages are an advanced construct of  high order self aware intelligence. bIjatlh'a'?  

Not arguing about richness (or diversity) of expression, more about what constitutes language and particularly language involving abstract, symbolic, and conceptual thoughts 

The Piraha are human. Thus their language is human. It goes to the diversity of language.

the Piraha have words and concepts' for "spirit" beings whom the y believe to be real, live near water ways  and who are dangerous.

This is an unsubstantiated opinion based on your religious biases as cleverly gleaned from 8bits. the posters here are looking for engaging quality discussions let me show you how to craft an argument that uses facts to support it and advances constructive discussion, in Zoology,  thinking is defined as mental flexibility meaning that if an animal can basically come up with a novel way to get from point A to point B that is not hardwired ( innate) it is said to be thinking. 
 

Making tools is one such artifact of thinking, please add Darwin and Jane Goodall to your reading list, her work on ant dipping is incredible. 

 

 https://www.npr.org/2011/12/23/143833929/myth-busting-the-truth-about-animals-and-tools

 

 

Andy Whiten observed not only learning, but culture influences (social learning). For example: sea otters dive deep to get rocks and put their favorite  rocks on on their belly or under their left armpit to use at a later time to crack open shells.  
 

https://www.scientia.global/professor-andrew-whiten-the-new-science-of-animal-culture-conservation-and-welfare/

 

Then there is Mirror self recognition or MSR, FYI human kids do not use a mirror as an adult until 18 months old. Gordon Gallop tested self awareness in chimps by using contingency testing when they realized themselves in the mirror they started to check themselves out including blowing bubbles in the mirror. https://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/15/list-of-animals-that-have-passed-the-mirror-test/ Gallop came up with the mark test. Dolphins, and Asian elephants have been shown to show MSR.

 

A good post is based on reading quality academic resources and the studies that support them. I am stunned I am suggesting this to a teacher. Always frame and build from a basic understanding of the given subject. Don’t ever claim you understand a subject and then proceed to demonstrate no basic understanding it only serves to ruin ones credibility. Always be factual and when you aren’t stand corrected. A good argument is convincing in and of itself one doesn’t need to spend countless posts defending it or moving goal posts, because the facts speak for themselves and a great argument advances and inspires great conversations. Philosophy 101 teaches this you can literally Google a “free” course online and take it. 
 

How about how clever an animal is? Enter, Clever Hahn the trotting horse who was able to answer math questions, a variety of trials were created for Clever Hahn, the horse could read the behavior cues of humans especially, if they had the right answer. Google the Clever Hahn effect https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33936/33936-h/33936-h.htm.

 

Insightful problem solving advanced by Preston Foerder,  https://phys.org/news/2011-08-elephants-capable-insight.html  Candala the elephant has been shown to demonstrate insightful problem solving using his sense of smell to get food.
 

Complex thinking Smithsonian study https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/thinking-like-a-chimpanzee-55484749/

 

Ethology, neuroscience, psychology are also used to study animals. 
 

‘’I hope this helps you, all the best. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sherapy

[Abramelin]

Walker, you may have read tons of books. But so have I.

It doesn't make me feel superior to those who didn't.

Why do you (- as is bloody obvious from the tomes you post-)?

I still think you are some sort of a bot, or just someone with an ego that could rival a huge balloon.

Noone here believes your 'perfect' life, your 'perfect knowledge of everything' (after a couple of days of intense googling, that is).

You are also simply UNable to answer in a clear and  concise way.

The more words you use, the less you are able to convey your message.

Edited to add:

You may have noticed I almost edit 90 % of my posts because of typo's. But English isn't my mother tongue.

Why don't you?

"The y" ...

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yep, and again this is about "Walker says..."