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Heaven and Hell


Guyver
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On 7/29/2021 at 5:19 PM, Guyver said:

if heaven is a place of pleasure as some people believe, how could pleasure be understood without its opposite?  

 

It can't. That's why we live in a world where pain and suffering are ever-present possibilities. Because without that, there would be no way of knowing what the desirability of pleasure is, and how to achieve it.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

It can't. That's why we live in a world where pain and suffering are ever-present possibilities. Because without that, there would be no way of knowing what the desirability of pleasure is, and how to achieve it.

 

 

Only certain people can find help in what you believe.

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Sometimes I log in to like stuff y’all are saying though I admit at this time I’m not reading carefully.  Just saying.  I am so stressed out right now.  I just started a new job after one year of retirement a d I’m finding it very difficult to release the old life and go back to working for a living.  Plus, I have a new band and we have two gigs this week.  I’m freaking.  Too much pressure.

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8 hours ago, Guyver said:

Only certain people can find help in what you believe.

 

Finding help; comes only with what you believe.

 

"Concerning the kingdom and your assurance of acceptance by the heavenly Father, let me ask what father among you who is a worthy and kindhearted father would keep his son in anxiety or suspense regarding his status in the family or his place of security in the affections of his father’s heart? Do you earth fathers take pleasure in torturing your children with uncertainty about their place of abiding love in your human hearts? Neither does your Father in heaven leave his faith children of the spirit in doubtful uncertainty as to their position in the kingdom. If you receive God as your Father, then indeed and in truth are you the sons of God. And if you are sons, then are you secure in the position and standing of all that concerns eternal and divine sonship. If you believe my words, you thereby believe in Him who sent me, and by thus believing in the Father, you have made your status in heavenly citizenship sure. 

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I am pleased to hear you had such a positive experience in your childhood, and that you had such joy. For children growing up with mitigating circumstances such as poverty or abuse it becomes about survival and the anxiety of survival mode on a young child can make for a rough journey ahead. A lot of time and work goes into working through it. I can tell you I am living proof of what is possible with great examples such as my grandparents and my grandmothers good sense to encourage therapy, she was a big proponent of getting help. 
 

What is really cool is my middle son has chosen  a path of helping very tragic cases of childhood abuse and because of my journey has the compassion and deep understanding to help. He knows what helps and what doesn’t and we ended the cycle of abuse in my family line. 
 

Things happen in life accidents happen, loved ones die, and folks get sick something they didn’t plan for everyone has suffered whether they admit it or not and not all suffering is of our own doing. Sometimes, some experiences are just hard no matter what one does. One just has to push through, put one foot in front of the other. 
 

I work for a woman who has an amazing life by anyone’s standards wonderful children, millions, many homes,  a devoted loving husband of 60 years this couple are still madly in love, then she got Parkinson’s and all the joy and love is still there and in spite of the best caregivers and devoted spouse great kids she misses who she once was, she is grieving the loss of herself and it has been a hard road for her and there are those that think cuz she has so much that she shouldn’t complain, I disagree it doesn’t matter what she has in money or love she is human and has the right to express her vulnerabilities and deserves compassion and empathy. 

There is a lot of wisdom in your post ^    Live and learn I guess?   Mom would say " into each life some rain must fall "

people are strange ,and wonderful, creatures..  It seems that if trouble doesn't find us..we tend to find  it.?   Some people have all the advantages and yet, end up miserable.. often by thier own doing,  and sometimes through no fault of their own.  Some have the spirit to overcome great adversities and find/create happiness.      ...  Anyway, thanks .

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2 hours ago, lightly said:

There is a lot of wisdom in your post ^    Live and learn I guess?   Mom would say " into each life some rain must fall "

people are strange ,and wonderful, creatures..  It seems that if trouble doesn't find us..we tend to find  it.?   Some people have all the advantages and yet, end up miserable.. often by thier own doing,  and sometimes through no fault of their own.  Some have the spirit to overcome great adversities and find/create happiness.      ...  Anyway, thanks .

According to the wisdoms I have gleaned thru my journey in various therapies, and working with people as a caregiver who really are faced with things at the end of the day it is the resilience nurtured and all its offshoots that come as a result of what one does with their challenges, whatever they maybe. It is okay to be afraid, to mourn the loss of what once was and people deserve the compassion and empathy to do so, no matter what. Your mom is correct everyone has a branch on the sorrow tree. 
 

We all go through the same things as humans to varying degrees, in all my time as a caregiver on many different cases, what stands out to me is how a person copes with the adversity they are dealt, many start out with rose colored glasses and the uncertainty factor of dealing with their diagnosis or situation is a source of much anxiety, eventually it is worked thru or not. For ex: a person with chronic pain is dealing with never being able to count on a point where the pain will subside, or a solution that will bring relief consistently, one can find a way to cope if there is an end in sight or a solid diagnosis. A person who is having all the signs of dementia but hasn’t had an official diagnosis. This brings fear at levels most would drop to their knees. I soecialuze in Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s as a caregiver, their is an initial terror in the early stages of the diagnosis one is aware of the fact that they will lose the ability to do many things and become fully dependent, yet when or how long can never be answered,  I am more concerned for those that put on a stiff upper lip, claim they are above their human nature then the ones who share their vulnerabilities. So many become depressed including the optimistic ones. 
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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18 hours ago, Guyver said:

Sometimes I log in to like stuff y’all are saying though I admit at this time I’m not reading carefully.  Just saying.  I am so stressed out right now.  I just started a new job after one year of retirement a d I’m finding it very difficult to release the old life and go back to working for a living.  Plus, I have a new band and we have two gigs this week.  I’m freaking.  Too much pressure.

Sorry to hear that you feel conflicted and will ask what will give you the most personal satisfaction and suggest to go for the best personal reward

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19 hours ago, Guyver said:

Sometimes I log in to like stuff y’all are saying though I admit at this time I’m not reading carefully.  Just saying.  I am so stressed out right now.  I just started a new job after one year of retirement a d I’m finding it very difficult to release the old life and go back to working for a living.  Plus, I have a new band and we have two gigs this week.  I’m freaking.  Too much pressure.

Why are you returning to the work force? 

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19 hours ago, Guyver said:

Sometimes I log in to like stuff y’all are saying though I admit at this time I’m not reading carefully.  Just saying.  I am so stressed out right now.  I just started a new job after one year of retirement a d I’m finding it very difficult to release the old life and go back to working for a living.  Plus, I have a new band and we have two gigs this week.  I’m freaking.  Too much pressure.

You've got this. Even if you don't, you still got it. 

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On 8/11/2021 at 3:50 PM, Sherapy said:

Why are you returning to the work force? 

My wife wanted me too…mostly.  But, I admit I wanted the extra money.  After my first week I wish I would have stayed retired lol.  

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So, speaking of hell, and since I was talking about myself….life seems strangely hellish for me at the moment, yet I have so much to be thankful for.  I played two shows this week with a new band that I was hesitant about joining, but…since I really love this guy named Sean who plays the guitar and sings.  I went for the band because I love Sean and he loves me, but I don’t really trust the rest of the band like he does.  I mean the bass player is great on bass, but he’s a nerd onstage, and the lead guitar player is not that hot.  Anyway, we had one show that was like heaven and the other was like hell, all in the same weekend. FWIW.  

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Plus, my own wife and I had a heaven and hell week.  IDK.  I can’t really express what I’m thinking properly, but it’s almost like I -since I can only speak for myself and you don’t experience this.  But, it seems like hell kinda comes in waves, but it’s always there even when times are good.  As I said, I can only speak for myself….but for some reason I think there must be many other people who experience what I do, and it seems to me like one does get a certain amount of heaven and hell all the time.

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On 7/29/2021 at 5:19 PM, Guyver said:

Is there any such thing as heaven?  What is it?  Is it real?  As I was attempting to contemplate heaven today, it occurred to me that it is hard to imagine.  And, I wonder if heaven could even be understood without hell?  Or more specifically, if heaven is a place of pleasure as some people believe, how could pleasure be understood without its opposite?  
 

PS.  I will post two contrasting songs for your listening pleasure.

One Christian understanding of Heaven and Hell is Heaven is being in God's presence after death, and Hell is being put outside God's presence. 

Though God is supposed to be everywhere, He's not in Hell.

Though another thought is that there's two Heavens, and two Hells. One is the "Waiting Heaven", where the "Saints" supposedly wait, and the New Heaven, which is after the final Judgement.

There's supposed to be a Hades, which Jesus decended to when he died on the cross. So that would be a "Waiting Hell", which would resemble the fiery cavern themed hell. AND then there is the "Fire", or Lake of Fire, where the damned go at Final Judgement, which is the place outside of God. Where just being there is suffering. Like being in a constant fire.

Heaven would indeed be a place of constant joy, such that boredom wouldn't happen, even over infinity. Human brains just are not built to grasp that though.

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On 8/7/2021 at 10:52 PM, Guyver said:

Study it out for yourself, and see if what I’m saying is true.  You will find that I am correct but I doubt you will thank me.  People who think the rapture is about to occur are delusional and that is sad.

I dont believe that Revelations even uses that idea. The believers get "Lifted up", but its after almost all the bad stuff already happens.

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On 8/1/2021 at 8:14 AM, joc said:

Truth is the only standard.  I am not talking about philosophical truths, but the physical state of the universe.  The laws of physics...the truth of what can and cannot happen in our universe.  A virgin cannot have a baby.  Because we all know how babies are made.  No woman who has never had sexual contact with a male human can become pregnant...not without the intervention of technological advancements, invitro fertilization et al.  That's the truth.  So, that part of the story of Jesus is not true.  It's false.  It's okay to believe it's true...but that doesn't make it true.  It isn't.  

Interesting that you state it like a fact, then state an example of an exception. So a Virgin in today's world Can be impregnated. Actually in many ways.

So you dismiss the Mary story as false even though you admit to many exceptions.

These stories are stories, with minimal facts. Jesus perhaps walked on water by using a sandbar, or standing on a large plank... We can't know he didn't. All we know is the events are portrayed as miraculous... By a people who thought 99% of the world worked by magic. So their assessments aren't going to be those of the Amazing Randi.... Just saying.

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6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Interesting that you state it like a fact, then state an example of an exception. So a Virgin in today's world Can be impregnated. Actually in many ways.

So you dismiss the Mary story as false even though you admit to many exceptions.

These stories are stories, with minimal facts. Jesus perhaps walked on water by using a sandbar, or standing on a large plank... We can't know he didn't. All we know is the events are portrayed as miraculous... By a people who thought 99% of the world worked by magic. So their assessments aren't going to be those of the Amazing Randi.... Just saying.

Dude...I...walked on a sandbar off the shore of the Gulf in Pensacola...way, way out there...stupid but I did it. 

Virgins cannot have babies.  Unless you want to impregnate a virgin using a needle bypassing her hymen.  Nobody to my knowledge has ever done that.  And...here is the most important part of the fact...2000 years ago no such technology existed.  

So...yes...the Virgin birth story is false.  The scripture says the spirit of God came upon Mary and impregnated her.  It's silly.  It never happened.  At the same time 1BC there is a Virgin Birth story floating around Korea as well...a horse and a stable and a virgin...

But/and...if you read the Apostles Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

That is the definition of a Christian...if  you don't believe all that you are not a Christian...not in the eyes of the church.  Christianity has nothing to do with how one lives one's individual life...it has everything to do with what one 'believes'.  And I don't believe...any of it.

 

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7 hours ago, joc said:

Dude...I...walked on a sandbar off the shore of the Gulf in Pensacola...way, way out there...stupid but I did it. 

Virgins cannot have babies.  Unless you want to impregnate a virgin using a needle bypassing her hymen.  Nobody to my knowledge has ever done that.  And...here is the most important part of the fact...2000 years ago no such technology existed.  

So...yes...the Virgin birth story is false.  The scripture says the spirit of God came upon Mary and impregnated her.  It's silly.  It never happened.  At the same time 1BC there is a Virgin Birth story floating around Korea as well...a horse and a stable and a virgin...

But/and...if you read the Apostles Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

That is the definition of a Christian...if  you don't believe all that you are not a Christian...not in the eyes of the church.  Christianity has nothing to do with how one lives one's individual life...it has everything to do with what one 'believes'.  And I don't believe...any of it.

 

In which case most Christians aren't Christian given that the y are not believers in the Catholic church. ( Actually it is hard to be certain Possibly, half of Christians are Catholic )

In reality a Christian is a person who follows Christ,  believes in Christ's teachings,  or at least professes to do so. 

"The church" does not, and can not, define who is Christian and who is not,  much as some churches would love to do so. 

One can even be a Christian without believing in miracles,  or heaven or hell, if one lives as Christ taught humans to live. 

Here is a more protestant  view.

quote

 The term “Christian,” as we understand it, refers to anyone, man, woman, or child, who trusts in Jesus Christ as his or her Savior and Lord and who strives to follow Him in every area of life. As evangelicals, we place great stress on the importance of an individual’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We believe that this relationship is lived out by way of prayer, study of God’s Word, fellowship with God’s people, and service to others in Jesus’ name. There’s an important sense in which Christian faith has to be expressed in the context of community with other believers. But in the final analysis, it’s an intensely personal and individual matter, not a question of church membership or doctrinal orientation. The Bible backs us up in this regard: ” Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32).

Edited by Mr Walker
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6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In which case most Christians aren't Christian given that the y are not believers in the Catholic church. ( Actually it is hard to be certain Possibly, half of Christians are Catholic )

Actually, @joc cited the Apostles Creed. Many Protestants, including some who prefer not to profess the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, are happy with the Apostles. There are also, of course, Christian denominations which reject "top down" creeds on principle, and other denominations that prefer their own statements of belief to any of the ancient creeds, for example, Seventh Day Adventists, but I don't need to tell you that, do I?

Even the Nicene-Constantinople Creed isn't exclusively or even especially Big-C Catholic. Your fixation with Catholics is showing again.

 

Edited by eight bits
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7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In which case most Christians aren't Christian given that the y are not believers in the Catholic church. ( Actually it is hard to be certain Possibly, half of Christians are Catholic )

In reality a Christian is a person who follows Christ,  believes in Christ's teachings,  or at least professes to do so. 

"The church" does not, and can not, define who is Christian and who is not,  much as some churches would love to do so. 

One can even be a Christian without believing in miracles,  or heaven or hell, if one lives as Christ taught humans to live. 

Here is a more protestant  view.

quote

 The term “Christian,” as we understand it, refers to anyone, man, woman, or child, who trusts in Jesus Christ as his or her Savior and Lord and who strives to follow Him in every area of life. As evangelicals, we place great stress on the importance of an individual’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We believe that this relationship is lived out by way of prayer, study of God’s Word, fellowship with God’s people, and service to others in Jesus’ name. There’s an important sense in which Christian faith has to be expressed in the context of community with other believers. But in the final analysis, it’s an intensely personal and individual matter, not a question of church membership or doctrinal orientation. The Bible backs us up in this regard: ” Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32).

Hi Walker

It never fails to arouse wonder for me why you keep defending the Christian perspective when you reject it personally, what is in it for you if you don't believe?

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3 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

It never fails to arouse wonder for me why you keep defending the Christian perspective when you reject it personally, what is in it for you if you don't believe?

Hi Walker

Just wanted to add, why would you direct others to a religion when your god construct is an alien that is not a Christian and you make no personal attempts to share it's philosophy for man or try to make conversions n the common sense?:huh:

Edited by closed for business
Because I am perfectly imperfect
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On 8/15/2021 at 6:14 AM, DieChecker said:

One Christian understanding of Heaven and Hell is Heaven is being in God's presence after death, and Hell is being put outside God's presence. 

Though God is supposed to be everywhere, He's not in Hell.

Though another thought is that there's two Heavens, and two Hells. One is the "Waiting Heaven", where the "Saints" supposedly wait, and the New Heaven, which is after the final Judgement.

There's supposed to be a Hades, which Jesus decended to when he died on the cross. So that would be a "Waiting Hell", which would resemble the fiery cavern themed hell. AND then there is the "Fire", or Lake of Fire, where the damned go at Final Judgement, which is the place outside of God. Where just being there is suffering. Like being in a constant fire.

Heaven would indeed be a place of constant joy, such that boredom wouldn't happen, even over infinity. Human brains just are not built to grasp that though.

DieChecker, each of us has the privilege of believing whatever we wish.  Regarding God being in hell, in the Psalms you may remember David asking where can I go (to hide) from your Spirit.  If I ascend to heaven, you are there.  If I make my bed (live in) hell, behold you are there as well.  And, in Isaiah I believe it is, the scripture says that the darkness and the light are the same to You o Lord.  So, while I respect your beliefs, it certainly seems to me that if there be such a place as Heaven and/or Hell, Almighty God has the ability to be in both of those places simultaneously.  FWIW.

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14 hours ago, eight bits said:

Actually, @joc cited the Apostles Creed. Many Protestants, including some who prefer not to profess the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, are happy with the Apostles. There are also, of course, Christian denominations which reject "top down" creeds on principle, and other denominations that prefer their own statements of belief to any of the ancient creeds, for example, Seventh Day Adventists, but I don't need to tell you that, do I?

Even the Nicene-Constantinople Creed isn't exclusively or even especially Big-C Catholic. Your fixation with Catholics is showing again.

 

Nup Its my pedantic  fixation   The wording said holy catholic church. Now while catholic can mean "including all" that is not actually the intent with that wording 

While raised atheist most of my relatives were church of England or Methodist.  I first got annoyed  with Catholicism as an atheist teenager when i was denied (by their parents) "dating rights" with catholic girls because I was non catholic  I was simply told that I  couldn't go out with them berceuse they could only marry a catholic boy and the risk of dating a non catholic was not acceptable 

It was particularly annoying because (at least where i lived and in the 1960s)  the catholic girls  were more likely to be "sexually  adventurous" 

The high church section of the C of E is similar to Catholicism, but  there is an increasing divergence with churches from the reformation, and   more recent fundamentalist bible based /Pentecostalist groups 

Two points really.

I notice that many people judge Christianity (harshly)  by Catholicism, including many who were raised catholic,  and historically it was often not a nice or pleasant church especially  to those outside it.  It preached fear of hell and damnation, and salvation only though the intercession of the church, which is non biblical.

 My second point  was wider 

Being christian has nothing to do with what particular church you follow. You can follow no church, and be a christian simply by following the words of Christ  Biblically salvation comes form Christs sacrifice, is available to all, and only has to be accepted via a personal belief,  or retonship with Christ 

Its true I dont like traditional catholic doctrine  but i felt that way as an atheist/ humanist,   and historian.

  i dont like any form of fear based, coercive theology, be it Marxism or Catholicism

I also don't like hierarchical/ patriarchal,  authoritarian  groups, which exclude others 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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14 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

It never fails to arouse wonder for me why you keep defending the Christian perspective when you reject it personally, what is in it for you if you don't believe?

I dont reject Christianity Where did you get that  idea from

My argument is that human beings should adopt a belief which best suits them For a few that might even be atheism 

Indeed any (positive ) faith is better than no faith

Some christian beliefs/practices are healthier than others (also true for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc ) 

thus people from  certain christian groups live healthier happier lives than those from others 

Finally, i have concerns about any fanatical belief designed to make people obedient and afraid,  which excludes others  Both historical Catholicism and some American  fundamentalist groups fit that category  (as do some groups from other religions)

Personally i could adopt any belief system/way of living and live by it,  as long as it didn't go against my more basic values of a humanist   nature  or make me less healthy etc.

No one NEEDS a religion, but most humans  need faith/belief 

I get 

Better physical and psychological health

Better relationships with those around me. 

(where i was born and now live Christianity is by far the dominant social group 

As a child about 80%of people were Christians and the rest atheists or agnostics 

Today a majority are still christian but there is a large percentage of atheists/uncommitted, and  handful of  non christian migrants )

it is easier to fit into a community if you are not too far away from their values and beliefs. (I am very sociable person and community is very important to me )

Personally of course I get the physical advantages and power conferred by connection to the cosmic consciousness, but similar abilities can be gained from strong belief 

If i lived in a Muslim community I'd be a moderate Muslim.

Same for any other group/relgion. 

 

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11 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

Just wanted to add, why would you direct others to a religion when your god construct is an alien that is not a Christian and you make no personal attempts to share it's philosophy for man or try to make conversions n the common sense?:huh:

Not my job to convert people.

I don't have a faith based relationship, so it is natural that  i don't have a particular faith to preach.

Any positive faith will work on the human mind and body   

I do point out the physical/practical differences in some beliefs and lifestyles.  I believe that is my responsibility and that goes back to the humanist philosophy  of sharing with, and helping, others.

Um!! The christian god (and most other gods) are also  alien (non human) and   each human has their own mental construct about their god.   

I have shared many times the basic role and purpose of the cosmic consciousness in the governance of the galaxy and its role with individual humans, and humanity in general.

  These are, of course, my personal understandings, based on almost 60 years of a physical  relationship and connection with it. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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4 hours ago, Guyver said:

DieChecker, each of us has the privilege of believing whatever we wish.  Regarding God being in hell, in the Psalms you may remember David asking where can I go (to hide) from your Spirit.  If I ascend to heaven, you are there.  If I make my bed (live in) hell, behold you are there as well.  And, in Isaiah I believe it is, the scripture says that the darkness and the light are the same to You o Lord.  So, while I respect your beliefs, it certainly seems to me that if there be such a place as Heaven and/or Hell, Almighty God has the ability to be in both of those places simultaneously.  FWIW.

Which is why I made a distinction between "Hell" where people wait till the Last Judgement. And where those who are damned at Judgement go.

Check Mathew 25:41

Quote

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God tells people do leave him, and ho into the Fire. The same Fire people go into at Judgement.

Not saying this is my belief, but that many do belive this.

Edited by DieChecker
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