Heaven and Hell

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

That's fine, but there is no incentive for me to accept your claims as true.

A schizophrenic has plenty of "evidence" that some of their hallucinations are representative of objective reality, but that doesn't make it so.

Thats fine. It os not about your belief  

and no, a schizophrenic cant have physical evidences UNLESS there are physical evidences 

ie imagination or imaginary constructs don't count. Every experience must be verified by hard external evidences  (but those evidences may not be be transferable  to others  because they are transient and connected to the event. 

[jmccr8]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That IS the manifesto I live by

Hi Walker

Take it to my thread if you want to push this

[Horta]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Thats fine. It os not about your belief  

and no, a schizophrenic cant have physical evidences UNLESS there are physical evidences 

ie imagination or imaginary constructs don't count. Every experience must be verified by hard external evidences  (but those evidences may not be be transferable  to others  because they are transient and connected to the event. 

Nah, they've got all of the evidence they need (to them). It's all very real and and can manifest physically (to them). It's just that they can't provide any of it for scrutiny, so it's generally considered to amount to a form of psychosis. Which is what some here are getting at...Such experiences can also happen in otherwise healthy people for a multitude of reasons. Hence bigfoot...

(cue the experts who have found that Mr. Walker could never have a psychotic experience...unlike the rest of humanity lol).

[Horta]

Of course there is a huge grey area with many possibilities and perhaps combinations of possibilities between "persistent story teller" and >>>>>"psychotic experience".

[Will Due]

Free 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Will Due

[eight bits]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

(but those evidences may not be be transferable  to others  because they are transient and connected to the event. 

Or, to make a long story short, the dog ate your homework.

We get it. We've gotten it for years.

[SHaYap]

39 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Or, to make a long story short, the dog ate your homework.

Caution! 

Quote

~

 

[Mr Walker]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:35 PM, Horta said:

Nah, they've got all of the evidence they need (to them). It's all very real and and can manifest physically (to them). It's just that they can't provide any of it for scrutiny, so it's generally considered to amount to a form of psychosis. Which is what some here are getting at...Such experiences can also happen in otherwise healthy people for a multitude of reasons. Hence bigfoot...

(cue the experts who have found that Mr. Walker could never have a psychotic experience...unlike the rest of humanity lol).

That's the point 

Evidences are evidences 

Reality is determined by external physical evidences not by internal perceptions, beliefs, delusions etc.  Delusions can't manifest physically. They remain within the mind 

its really quite easy to test the nature/validity  of your reality,  UNLESS you have a severe mental illness 

I've never had any form of psychotic episode. 

I've had some very interesting and real hallucinations after major operations, when on very strong painkillers.

  But i knew what they  were and.  with a bit of effort and discipline, managed to dismiss them using a couple of mental skills 

I am not really certain how many people have psychotic episodes but i think that( outside of drug users and the mentally ill, it is quite rare  (American figures put it at less than 3% of the population over their entire lifetime) 

it is easy to dismiss all unusual events as unreal or the result of mental illness, but that's simply not the case.

  It is an easy excuse /out for those who don't want to believe such things can be real,  to use  to dismiss ALL such experiences 

 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

Or, to make a long story short, the dog ate your homework.

We get it. We've gotten it for years.

Using that  analogy, no you haven't got it at all 

We all have evidenced experiences where there are clear incontrovertible evidences that the experience was real, BUT there is no way to transfer those evidences to a person who wasn't there. If the dog ate my homework there would (eventually)  be transferrable  physical evidences for that. 

A better example would be simpler  eg i see a dog, and hear it bark. I can smell it  It poops on the ground, but it's owner cleans it up 

I have no transferable evidences that it actually existed, but i have enough contextual evidences to know that it did  The issue is not about (and never has been)  what one  person can prove to another.

it is about how one can prove something to oneself, using the evidences available at the time.  How do you know/prove to yourself, that something is happening outside your mind and not just inside it ? 

I do wonder if some people who protest this point lack confidence in their own perceptions, and abilty to discern reality, using contextual evidences  

For example to bring up psychosis as a common reason for people's  experiences,  when it is actually very rare,  MIGHT suggest a concern with ones own abilty to discern reality 

On the other hand, never having had that sort of incident, I find it hard to  accept  it  as a common cause of error,   although I know it does happen 

 

 

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

For example to bring up psychosis as a common reason for people's  experiences,  when it is actually very rare,  MIGHT suggest a concern with ones own abilty to discern reality 

You'll have to speak with the poster who brought that up. It doesn't suggest anything about them to me.

We seem to be drifiting away from the topic of Heaven and Hell. I know how much you hate to go off-topic, so let's just wait for another thread to come along where recognizing that dogs are dogs is on-topic.

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Using that  analogy, no you haven't got it at all 

We all have evidenced experiences where there are clear incontrovertible evidences that the experience was real, BUT there is no way to transfer those evidences to a person who wasn't there. If the dog ate my homework there would (eventually)  be transferrable  physical evidences for that. 

A better example would be simpler  eg i see a dog, and hear it bark. I can smell it  It poops on the ground, but it's owner cleans it up 

I have no transferable evidences that it actually existed, but i have enough contextual evidences to know that it did  The issue is not about (and never has been)  what one  person can prove to another.

it is about how one can prove something to oneself, using the evidences available at the time.  How do you know/prove to yourself, that something is happening outside your mind and not just inside it ? 

I do wonder if some people who protest this point lack confidence in their own perceptions, and abilty to discern reality, using contextual evidences  

For example to bring up psychosis as a common reason for people's  experiences,  when it is actually very rare,  MIGHT suggest a concern with ones own abilty to discern reality 

On the other hand, never having had that sort of incident, I find it hard to  accept  it  as a common cause of error,   although I know it does happen 

 

 

The defining feature of one who can’t discern actuality from own subjective reality is they cling to claims that can’t be evidenced. 
 

My mom and my ex mother in law both diagnosed with mental illnesses said the same things as you posted above, that the voices in their head were god and real and everyone else had the issue.  
 

Rationalization isn’t evidence of anything, it is the way one convinces themselves they are right. 
 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Rationalization isn’t evidence of anything, it is the way one convinces themselves they are right. 

 

That's right. It takes guts.

That's why you keep doing it. You're a hero. 

 

 

[Abramelin]

On 7/30/2021 at 2:19 AM, Guyver said:

Is there any such thing as heaven?  What is it?  Is it real?  As I was attempting to contemplate heaven today, it occurred to me that it is hard to imagine.  And, I wonder if heaven could even be understood without hell?  Or more specifically, if heaven is a place of pleasure as some people believe, how could pleasure be understood without its opposite?  
 

PS.  I will post two contrasting songs for your listening pleasure.

Here is a guy, Jim Walker, who compared the Revelations' description of Heaven to a Borg cube:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070205081722/https://www.nobeliefs.com/heaven.htm

Enjoy.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Abramelin

[Mr Walker]

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

You'll have to speak with the poster who brought that up. It doesn't suggest anything about them to me.

We seem to be drifiting away from the topic of Heaven and Hell. I know how much you hate to go off-topic, so let's just wait for another thread to come along where recognizing that dogs are dogs is on-topic.

Given that heaven and hell are certainly  mental states, if nothing else, then mental well being and illness go directly to our experience of heaven and hell on earth, and how we would envisage a physical version of it  Eg I have lived in (cognitive)  heaven for 99% of my life,  so, for me, heaven would simply be continuing my life on earth

My point  wasn't aimed a t  a specific poster; it goes precisely to this phenomenon 

We tend to see others through our own eyes and experiences. 

I have no personal experience with mental illness (and neither has anyone in my family )  and so i dont assume it is the basis for every unusual experience.

A person who has had their own experience with mental illness might likewise naturally assume that ALL unusual experiences are caused by a similar illness.  

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Here is a guy, Jim Walker, who compared the Revelations' description of Heaven to a Borg cube:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070205081722/https://www.nobeliefs.com/heaven.htm

Enjoy.

 

Hi Nuke

Is that Johnny Walkers sober brother

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The defining feature of one who can’t discern actuality from own subjective reality is they cling to claims that can’t be evidenced. 
 

My mom and my ex mother in law both diagnosed with mental illnesses said the same things as you posted above, that the voices in their head were god and real and everyone else had the issue.  
 

Rationalization isn’t evidence of anything, it is the way one convinces themselves they are right. 
 

 

 

As in the post above you are allowing your personal experiences to influence your perception of others 

I am not your mum or  mother in law 

I have never been diagnosed with any mental illness including depression or anxiety and indeed have been told I have very good mental health. by professionals 

Plus (IMO) due to your need to be in control of everything,  it scares you to believe such things are possible so you find ways to deny them 

However, to take your first point 

No claim can be evidenced TO ANOTHER without transferrable evidences 

Most of our experiences do not have transferable evidences BUT you can always check the physical and contextual evidences of an experience as it is occurring, to find physical evidences  for it (or the lack thereof )

 While  you are correct that rationalisation is not evidence  but rationalisation is wider than what you say.

it is also the human method of providing explanations for things they cant understand 

Thus while i dont rationalise  the existence of god into being from non existence,  I do rationalise the nature of the entity  I know, in order to try and understand it  Ie I try to construct rational answers to questions about it's nature. 

[Duke Wellington]

On 7/30/2021 at 1:19 AM, Guyver said:

Is there any such thing as heaven?  What is it?  Is it real?  As I was attempting to contemplate heaven today, it occurred to me that it is hard to imagine.  And, I wonder if heaven could even be understood without hell?  Or more specifically, if heaven is a place of pleasure as some people believe, how could pleasure be understood without its opposite?  
 

PS.  I will post two contrasting songs for your listening pleasure.

People want everything to go their way in life, but life is not like that.

And that is the cause of dissatisfaction. Heaven is an ideal, a place where nothing bad happens which many buy into, instead of learning to accept that life has its problems and getting on with it.

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The defining feature of one who can’t discern actuality from own subjective reality is they cling to claims that can’t be evidenced. 
 

My mom and my ex mother in law both diagnosed with mental illnesses said the same things as you posted above, that the voices in their head were god and real and everyone else had the issue.  
 

Rationalization isn’t evidence of anything, it is the way one convinces themselves they are right. 
 

 

 

As in the post above you are allowing your personal experiences to influence your perception of others 

Hi Walker

 Not sure if this will sink in but you are allowing your experiences to influence your perception as your haver not been demonstrated as representing the "whole or the hole of perception"

17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not your mum or  mother in law 

Luke I am your father. so what do you really mean when you say that, you have mommy issues?

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I have never been diagnosed with any mental illness including depression or anxiety and indeed have been told I have very good mental health. by professionals

I have never been diagnosed with cancer but if I squeeze your nuts and ask you t cough I am pretty sure you will does that make me Dr. Jay?

 

23 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Plus (IMO) due to your need to be in control of everything,  it scares you to believe such things are possible so you find ways to deny them 

However, to take your first point 

No claim can be evidenced TO ANOTHER without transferrable evidences 

Most of our experiences do not have transferable evidences BUT you can always check the physical and contextual evidences of an experience as it is occurring, to find physical evidences  for it (or the lack thereof )

 While  you are correct that rationalisation is not evidence  but rationalisation is wider than what you say.

it is also the human method of providing explanations for things they cant understand 

Thus while i dont rationalise  the existence of god into being from non existence,  I do rationalise the nature of the entity  I know, in order to try and understand it  Ie I try to construct rational answers to questions about it's nature. 

i am willing to discuss this in a thread more at6tuned to your specific debating style like my thread.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, closed for business said:

Hi Nuke

Is that Johnny Walkers sober brother

No Jacob, it was Mr. Walker, but 22 years ago.

[jmccr8]

42 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

No Jacob, it was Mr. Walker, but 22 years ago.

Hi Rob

If memory serves me a decade earlier he was Adonis who was perfect and rejected women because he was loved by Aphrodite.

What can I say other thnt the difference in his pictures of himself over the years have ranged for a guy slightly taller that the handlebars of a rice rocket with an over sized(to fit his highly evolved prefrontal cortex)helmet to Gabe from Welcome back Kotter, so the jury is still out for at least another decade or two by his assertations,.

Edited August 22, 2021 by closed for business
Meh

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

 Not sure if this will sink in but you are allowing your experiences to influence your perception as your haver not been demonstrated as representing the "whole or the hole of perception"

Luke I am your father. so what do you really mean when you say that, you have mommy issues?

I have never been diagnosed with cancer but if I squeeze your nuts and ask you t cough I am pretty sure you will does that make me Dr. Jay?

 

i am willing to discuss this in a thread more at6tuned to your specific debating style like my thread.

Must be the weekend again  

yes of course my experiences construct my perceptions and my perceptions construct my understanding of reality.

  And so? 

Sherapy constantly  imposes her  experiences  with others and the conclusions she made from  those,  onto her understanding of me (a person she  has never met )

I do wish I had met her sster , mother, and mother in law, in order to determine how  objectively  accurate and truthful Sherapy's personal opinions about them are .)

She takes from  what i post what she wants to hear and ignores everything  she doesn't want to hear. 

First I've been totally cleared of any mental problems even minor ones.  Indeed the opposite is true. I've been diagnosed as being very well grounded in reality, well balanced psychologically ,   and highly functional in a cognitive sense 

Second; voices in one's head are not evidences BUT sometimes the results of those voices can provide physical evidences .

Plus my experiences are not really about a voice in my head (I don't really hear a voice in my head  other than my own) 

 

 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

4 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Nuke

Is that Johnny Walkers sober brother

  I think you confused @Abramelin with me. Lol.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[jmccr8]

17 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

  I think you confused @Abramelin with me. Lol.

Hi Nuke

Yes could be a combination of rum and you have a new avatar OOPS

[+Nuclear Wessel]

18 minutes ago, closed for business said:

rum

All is forgiven lol

[+Sherapy]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:21 PM, Mr Walker said:

As in the post above you are allowing your personal experiences to influence your perception of others 

I am not your mum or  mother in law 

I have never been diagnosed with any mental illness including depression or anxiety and indeed have been told I have very good mental health. by professionals 

Plus (IMO) due to your need to be in control of everything,  it scares you to believe such things are possible so you find ways to deny them 

However, to take your first point 

No claim can be evidenced TO ANOTHER without transferrable evidences 

Most of our experiences do not have transferable evidences BUT you can always check the physical and contextual evidences of an experience as it is occurring, to find physical evidences  for it (or the lack thereof )

 While  you are correct that rationalisation is not evidence  but rationalisation is wider than what you say.

it is also the human method of providing explanations for things they cant understand 

Thus while i dont rationalise  the existence of god into being from non existence,  I do rationalise the nature of the entity  I know, in order to try and understand it  Ie I try to construct rational answers to questions about it's nature. 

At best, your god construct is a projection of your imagination. 

God is defined specifically as beyond human comprehension and understanding.. This means no one knows, including you.  

Obviously, it fills a void for you, offers you things you are missing and I am glad you have a way to do this.