The Now

[Will Due]

44 minutes ago, lightly said:

    I seem to remember a wise man or somebody once said  " the Kingdom of Heaven is Within ".    

. always liked that. He may have been onto something there. ? 

 

What he said is "the kingdom of God is within you" where we pray that now "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Will Due

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

    I seem to remember a wise man or somebody once said  " the Kingdom of Heaven is Within ".    

. always liked that. He may have been onto something there. ? 

Excellent add to.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

What he said is "the kingdom of God is within you" where we pray that now "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

 

 

Lightly said the same thing lol. 

 If one is Buddhist, or Zen or Athiest, or agnostic, Christian, Jewish  etc. meditation or prayer reveals it’s all the same goal just different paths to the same place, anyway. 
 

Acceptance in essence letting go of righteousness or dualism ( moving into open awareness) is the equivalent of non judgement on a Zen path.

 

No one can save us but ourselves, no one can or may, it is a path we walk alone. ~Buddha 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

36 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

No one can save us but ourselves, no one can or may, it is a path we walk alone. ~Buddha 

 

We're never alone because the Immortal God and his kingdom is within us now.

“Cheerfulness and gladness are the rewards of deeds well done and to the glory of the Immortal. No man can rob you of the liberty of your own mind. When the faith of your religion has emancipated your heart, when the mind, like a mountain, is settled and immovable, then shall the peace of the soul flow tranquilly like a river of waters. Those who are sure of salvation are forever free from lust, envy, hatred, and the delusions of wealth. While faith is the energy of the better life, nevertheless, must you work out your own salvation with perseverance. If you would be certain of your final salvation, then make sure that you sincerely seek to fulfill all righteousness. Cultivate the assurance of the heart which springs from within and thus come to enjoy the ecstasy of eternal salvation.

From Buddhist literature. 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

No one can save us but ourselves, no one can or may, it is a path we walk alone. ~Buddha 

 

[Will Due]

 

Although we may find ourselves isolated from the presence of other people sometimes, or even "alone in a crowd" it will still always remain true, we're never alone.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Will Due

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

What he said is "the kingdom of God is within you"

There are some sayings or teachings attributed to Jesus that reach us in two incompatible versions and with two opposite meanings. This is one of those.

Luke lays it out in chapter 17. To the Pharisees, Jesus says (v. 20-21):

Quote

God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation;  neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is [entos] you.

Then immediately he says to the disciples (v. 22-24)

Quote

The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23  They will tell you, ‘Look, here!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Don’t go away or follow after them, for as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part under the sky, shines to another part under the sky, so will the Son of Man be in his day.

Entos is a tricky word. People today seem to like the sound of "within (you)" for some reason, but the Greek word can just as well mean "in (your) midst." Either way, the phrase means "where you are" in one sense or the other. Let's just go with that for now.

To the Pharisees: God's Kingdom is a present tense thing, people won't say "Look (somewhere else)," because it is where you are, now.

To the Disciples: Something that sounds like God's Kingdom is a future tense thing, people will say "Look (somewhere else)," but this something will be everywhere, future tense.

Present or future? ("The now" or some other time?)

I like Thomas 113:

Quote

...It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and people do not see it.

Present tense; already everywhere, including where you are.

I am not a religious type, and not a monarchist, so I wouldn't call "IT" the kingdom of anything, not of God, surely, nor of the father, but I do have an inutition that whatever IT is, if there is any IT to speak about, then IT is here and now, all around and sure, all includes inside, too.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by eight bits

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

IT is here and now, all around and sure, all includes inside, too.

 

 

The kingdom idea taught by many who came before Jesus, and many since, has become a confused concept to say the least.

 

"Long had the Master taught his followers to pray: “Your kingdom come; your will be done”; and he earnestly sought to induce them to abandon the use of the term kingdom of God in favor of the more practical equivalent, the will of God. But he did not succeed.

 

From Jesus's standpoint, although God rules the universe of universes, he doesn't do it as a king rules his subjects. Rather, he does it as a loving father oversees and directs the affairs of his family.

 

"Jesus desired to substitute for the idea of the kingdom, king, and subjects, the concept of the heavenly family, the heavenly Father, and the liberated sons of God engaged in joyful and voluntary service for their fellow men and in the sublime and intelligent worship of God the Father.

 

"The Master made it clear that the kingdom of heaven must begin with, and be centered in, the dual concept of the truth of the fatherhood of God and the correlated fact of the brotherhood of man. 

 

Concepts of the Kingdom of Heaven

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Will Due

[eight bits]

... and yet, "kingdom" is the term attributed to Jesus, and the phrase was well-entrenched in Jewish writing and thought early enough for him to know and use it.

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9328-kingdom-of-god

One wonders why, if he meant to say something else, he wouldn't have said something else.

Philip Pullman in his atheist-friendly fiction series His Dark Materials proposes The Republic of God

That's getting warmer.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by eight bits
the link didn't link

[Will Due]

8 minutes ago, eight bits said:

One wonders why, if he meant to say something else, he wouldn't have said something else.

 

He did say something else. 

He said basically for all of you stuck on the "kingdom" thing, it, however you want to call it, will only come when "your will be done".

In other words, the "kingdom of heaven" is simply the business of the doing of God's will. 

 

"he earnestly sought to induce them to abandon the use of the term kingdom of God in favor of the more practical equivalent, the will of God. 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Will Due

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

There are some sayings or teachings attributed to Jesus that reach us in two incompatible versions and with two opposite meanings. This is one of those.

Luke lays it out in chapter 17. To the Pharisees, Jesus says (v. 20-21):

Then immediately he says to the disciples (v. 22-24)

Entos is a tricky word. People today seem to like the sound of "within (you)" for some reason, but the Greek word can just as well mean "in (your) midst." Either way, the phrase means "where you are" in one sense or the other. Let's just go with that for now.

To the Pharisees: God's Kingdom is a present tense thing, people won't say "Look (somewhere else)," because it is where you are, now.

To the Disciples: Something that sounds like God's Kingdom is a future tense thing, people will say "Look (somewhere else)," but this something will be everywhere, future tense.

Present or future? ("The now" or some other time?)

I like Thomas 113:

Present tense; already everywhere, including where you are.

I am not a religious type, and not a monarchist, so I wouldn't call "IT" the kingdom of anything, not of God, surely, nor of the father, but I do have an inutition that whatever IT is, if there is any IT to speak about, then IT is here and now, all around and sure, all includes inside, too.

 

Beautiful post, wowza best thing I have read all day. Much gratitude for you 8ty.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

He did say something else. 

He said basically for all of you stuck on the "kingdom" thing, it, however you want to call it, will only come when "your will be done".

In other words, the "kingdom of heaven" is simply the business of the doing of God's will. 

 

"he earnestly sought to induce them to abandon the use of the term kingdom of God in favor of the more practical equivalent, the will of God. 

 

 

 

In fairy tales, Will. It’s like trying to connect to the conciousness of Dragonball Z your whole life. 
 

And, don’t get me wrong this is fine if it gives you a goal towards your betterment, but it’s myth, not actuality. No one path has it all figured out, anyway. And, we don’t know on the god thing so far,  human’s hit the wall on this inquiry. 
 

Just my two cents. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

He did say something else. 

He said basically for all of you stuck on the "kingdom" thing, it, however you want to call it, will only come when "your will be done".

In other words, the "kingdom of heaven" is simply the business of the doing of God's will. 

 

"he earnestly sought to induce them to abandon the use of the term kingdom of God in favor of the more practical equivalent, the will of God. 

 

 

 

Insha'Allah.

[Mr Walker]

On 8/7/2021 at 7:33 AM, Hammerclaw said:

Guilt is the simple acknowledgement to one that one has done something one considers wrong. Remorse is to wish one hadn't done it and atonement is to publicly confess and redress or pay the consequence for the act.

We are an emotional species and our emotions evolved with us, love, hate, anger, remorse, We are complex intellects capable of grasping the infinite, but condemned to a finite existence. So, we dive deep into our emotions, our sublime and irrational notions and artistic modes of expression, to compensate for the limited expanse of time the stingy universe affords us. Emotions are compensating mechanisms.

Good post 

One point 

Many children are raised  to feel guilt when they have done nothing wrong.

The concept  that original sin makes us all sinners is one vehicle for such guilt, but just being told constantly that one is bad girl/boy will have the same effect

I was   very lucky to be raised by parents who held me accountable for deliberate wrong doings but not for accidents or things beyond my control    (eg because i was too young to understand something) 

Thus, unless I intentionally do wrong,  I don't feel guilt. 

The rest of your points are very valid, and  may apply even when you do hurt or damage which is NOT intentional Eg if I damaged another perrons car or knocked someone over walking on the footpath   might feel remorse and make some compensation, even if i wasn't to blame. 

I would add, as always, that a human can learn  choose which emotional responses to construct/ employ, to maximise the coping mechanism of each. 

[Mr Walker]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:40 AM, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, empathy is the ability to put yourself in another's shoes, see their world through their eyes, then gauge the impact of real-time events in their lives on their material and emotional well-being.

Hence, why a person might  feel remorse and make compensation if the y hurt another through no fault of their own  and thus had no guilt .

[Mr Walker]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:58 AM, Manwon Lender said:

What your saying is very true, with Buddhism since it is not pushed by its practitioners it's very easy to adopt what works for you and what choice you find necessary to use for self improvement. Like, because someone chooses the Buddhist Path doesn't mean they will ever achieve any form of enlightenment, everything depends upon your individual commitment. Which most if us do not have or every will ever have. Yet like you described the Spirituality that can found in the Path doesn't change whether we pick and choose what is useful to each of us or whether we go all in, everything is about personal preference and person improvement nothing more and nothing less.

Peace. 

IMO that's very true, and also how any faith or belief should be practiced 

[Mr Walker]

21 hours ago, Guyver said:

It doesn’t have to be one or the other.  It could be the result of being raised Catholic.

lol but very true 

Or simply raised to feel guilty about everything, including being born  

Sherapy is wrong  Guilt is a learned response 

it is useful when constructed for the right reasons but  harmful when constructed or felt for the wrong ones 

Eg a person who never sought to hurt or harm another  would not need to feel guilt.

Indeed to go wider a person who did all the things their society expected of them would never need to feel guilt 

Few if any humans can live like that, so most will  "be"  and feel guilty on occasions when the y deliberately break the laws, rules, or social expectations of their community  

Then it is psychologically sound to feel guilt. 

Otherwise it is not,  and can be very psychologically harmful, leading to depression and even suicide. 

[+Hammerclaw]

49 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Good post 

One point 

Many children are raised  to feel guilt when they have done nothing wrong.

The concept  that original sin makes us all sinners is one vehicle for such guilt, but just being told constantly that one is bad girl/boy will have the same effect

I was   very lucky to be raised by parents who held me accountable for deliberate wrong doings but not for accidents or things beyond my control    (eg because i was too young to understand something) 

Thus, unless I intentionally do wrong,  I don't feel guilt. 

The rest of your points are very valid, and  may apply even when you do hurt or damage which is NOT intentional Eg if I damaged another perrons car or knocked someone over walking on the footpath   might feel remorse and make some compensation, even if i wasn't to blame. 

I would add, as always, that a human can learn  choose which emotional responses to construct/ employ, to maximise the coping mechanism of each. 

Sometimes children suffer abuse, either intentional, or the product errant parenting. You have to understand, otherwise good people can be absolutely horrible at parenting and the children pay for it with unintended results. The fact that mommy and daddy loved them makes no never mind.

[+Hammerclaw]

47 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Hence, why a person might  feel remorse and make compensation if the y hurt another through no fault of their own  and thus had no guilt .

No one feels remorse without first feeling guilty Mr. Walker. Anyone who knows they have wronged another and feels no guilt lacks empathy, displaying sociopathic tendencies, your verbal slight-of-hand, not withstanding.

[docyabut2]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:06 PM, docyabut2 said:

 I want to believe  in this book my minster Wallace Tooke who baptized  and marry  me to my hub  and wrote this book . . who Katy says of we live in  another planet .

 

Hi! This Is Katy...: Wallace Tooke: 9780964683501: Amazon.com: Books

I want to believe in a heaven, In Wallace`s book  Katy`s first  message she sent him ,

Oh I`m so excited !

today i had quite a revelation  i saw a fly . don`t act startled . yes it was a fly.seemed  so strange to see a fly here.  first one i saw  it was the same but different . it was transparent and translucent . from what i gather it is the existing prototype of the flies you have on your planet.

[+Sherapy]

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol but very true 

Or simply raised to feel guilty about everything, including being born  

Sherapy is wrong  Guilt is a learned response 

it is useful when constructed for the right reasons but  harmful when constructed or felt for the wrong ones 

Eg a person who never sought to hurt or harm another  would not need to feel guilt.

Indeed to go wider a person who did all the things their society expected of them would never need to feel guilt 

Few if any humans can live like that, so most will  "be"  and feel guilty on occasions when the y deliberately break the laws, rules, or social expectations of their community  

Then it is psychologically sound to feel guilt. 

Otherwise it is not,  and can be very psychologically harmful, leading to depression and even suicide. 

Mr Walker quotes:
“When I say that  I have no fears, no guilt, no anger, and never suffer from  life  etc ,that's simply the truth.

You cant accept it,  because you are not like that,  and so argue that I am denying something. 

I am always kind to myself  

But I don't experience fear, anger, guilt   emotional pain,  regret etc., because I choose not to construct these emotional  responses. 

They are learned responses, and you can learn not to construct them.” 

‘A psychopath has no guilt or regret or empathy, you simply don’t have a solid understanding of emotions, It’s okay, it is never to late to change ones understanding. 

 

I do see that you came into this thread and revised your original position. It is about time.  Your grasp of affect has needed work forever. 
 

Of course, humans and you experience all kinds of affect responses including guilt, (not admitting to it is immaterial) we all experience guilt and regret from a evolutionary perspective this often leads to reciprocal altruism or from the Zen perspective an opportunity to nurture healthy relationships. All kinds of positive things can come from feeling guilt including an ability to forgive and feel empathy go beyond selfishness, to social cohesion, by the way as a mother, kids naturally feel guilt or remorse or regret, as a parent we guide by encouraging constructive resolution, such as tell Jimmy you are sorry, or what my grandfather encouraged learn from your mistakes, do everything you can to make things right, I think guilt inspires behavior grounded in integrity. It also encourages kids and adults who are willing to admit to their part to be accountable, that is doing what helps towards maintaining quality social relationships. 
 

MW, there is nothin to fear from your emotions, they are your friends. Just a perspective: in the practoce of mindfulness, at a basic level mindfulness means the ability to be aware of ones experience without thinking about it, rationalizing it, denying it or over reacting to it, one observes affect non judgementally and realistically the point is to set yourself up with a quality understanding and this is what leads to managing your emotions effectively and constructively as opposed to catastrophizing and repressing, denying  them. 

 

All the best.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sherapy

[SHaYap]

Chapter and verse... 

Quote

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com › ...

If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him by Sheldon Kopp ...

About If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him ... A fresh, realistic approach to altering one's destiny and accepting the responsibility that grows with ...

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com › Meet-Bu...

If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him! The Pilgrimage ... - Amazon

Dr. Sheldon B. Kopp (1929–1999) was a psychotherapist and teacher of psychotherapy in Washington, D.C. He published in such publications...

~

 

[+Sherapy]

35 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Chapter and verse... 

~

 

IMHO, there isn’t a better book written than this one. My stress management therapist read this book with me and she got a lot out of the book personally too. 
 

‘Whatever we go through in life is an opportunity for growth and the path that reveals itself is perfect for us as it is the walking of it that cultivates and nurtures the understandings that one needs to stay the course or walk the course and there will be times when It will suck, yet, in walking the path one comes away better for it. In life, some experiences come with a huge learning curve.  
 

There is also this wonderful story told by a monk called “A Better World,” it basically is about a seeker (I am paraphrasing as I can’t find the story online, so it isn’t exact) “who hears there is a door that leads to a better world  so he gets to the door and the door keeper tells him you can only enter if you agree to not give up no matter how hard it gets, the seeker asks how will I know what skills to use, or how to survive and the gate keeper says the path is designed to forge the things you will need in the experiencing of it, you must only trust the process.”

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sherapy

[Abramelin]

42 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Chapter and verse... 

~

 

You better watch out; he may be 'armed' ...

 

[+Sherapy]

On 8/6/2021 at 8:57 PM, Guyver said:

It doesn’t have to be one or the other.  It could be the result of being raised Catholic.

The psychopathology would come from the parents example and application of the religion, kids learn by example and no example speaks louder than the parents or caregivers. Typically, an adult with little to no empathy has not had much of it as an example. Kids imitate how they are treated. Empathetic parents admit to mistakes, apologize to their kids use compassion and respect to guide them. Do no harm is their mantra. My grandmother got me through my stupid teenager years using compassion, love and respect. Not everyone who is religious abuses it or exploits it either. 
 

My own childhood is a testimony to how religion was applied in a way that caused harm , my saving grace was being removed and being taken in by my grandparents, their example of kindness, love and compassion showed me a better example to draw from. The point is an empathetic parent aspires to not violate a child’s trust, or exploit their vulnerabilities. Respect is a two way street my kids are worthy of it as much as I am.  A wise parent makes this distinction. Allowing room for mistakes and growth is also an example set by the parent. One wouldn’t punish to hold a child accountable, they would teach by example using an appropriate level of understanding and their relationship with the child. 
 

For ex: a child says a curse word due to peer influences or the parents example, in our case hubby loved his curse words. In the do harm style of parenting  the parent washes their mouth out with soap or forces them to eat something peppery, or they have to give up a dollar of their allowance,  I have even seen a mom slap her little son so hard that he fell out of his chair. We  simply discussed it with our kids, and hubby changed his curse words around the kids made them kid friendly and funny for ex: shup the fup up and it became a fun bonding experience with us all making up alternative words, and we told them it is okay to cuss with your friends, but when they were with adults to use appropriate vocabulary. 
 

That solved that. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sherapy