Marjorie Greene "Use Guns to Stop Vaccine"

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The unvaccinated can easily change their status simply by going to a place where the shots are being given and getting one.

I suppose one could easily change one's poor status by robbing a bank, or one's homeless status by simply moving into an unoccupied building.  Let's get real.

Doug

I tend to agree.    What about obese people.   They certainly have ultimate control of that.  

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

I tend to agree.    What about obese people.   They certainly have ultimate control of that.  

Medical bills alone make quite a difference.  But for medical reasons not all obese people can control their weight.

The cheapest source of calories is starchy foods like macaroni.  If you eat a lot of these and not foods that are more nutriscious, you tend to gain weight.  Keep that up for a lifetime and you could be seriously overweight.  Not because you can't control your appetite, but because you can't afford to be thin.  So whose fault is that?

Penalizing over-weight people for their weight is just another way of victimizng the victim.

Lack of a vaccination can be easily remedied, weight cannot be.

Doug

[Myles]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Medical bills alone make quite a difference.  But for medical reasons not all obese people can control their weight.

The cheapest source of calories is starchy foods like macaroni.  If you eat a lot of these and not foods that are more nutriscious, you tend to gain weight.  Keep that up for a lifetime and you could be seriously overweight.  Not because you can't control your appetite, but because you can't afford to be thin.  So whose fault is that?

Penalizing over-weight people for their weight is just another way of victimizng the victim.

Lack of a vaccination can be easily remedied, weight cannot be.

Doug

I disagree.   Exercise is free.  It's basically all about burning as many calories as you consume.  

[Bavarian Raven]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:46 AM, Doug1066 said:

More evidence of the harm done by religion.

Doug

Of the abrahamic religions. Not all religions are "bad" / domineering. Don't lump us pagans in with them.

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, Myles said:

I disagree.   Exercise is free.  It's basically all about burning as many calories as you consume.  

Once upon a time I adopted a running program.  I ran through the spring summer and fall and lost probably around 25 pounds.  Then winter got there (Durango, Colorado).  My running course was not plowed, eighteen inches of snow on it.  So for three months I didn't run.  I gained a lot of those pounds back.

You don't sound like you have ever tried to lose 50 pounds by exercising.  Try it.  It ain't that easy.

But to be honest, I have never had a successful diet.  Running is the only way I have ever lost weight.  My goal in the above program was to make an 18-mile loop through the mountains.  I actually achieved a little more than ten.  Beautiful country, though.

Doug

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Bavarian Raven said:

Of the abrahamic religions. Not all religions are "bad" / domineering. Don't lump us pagans in with them.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."  We all have our problems, usually uniquely our own.

I know several pagans, including my Irish-language teacher.  I respect their viewpoint and have participated in a Thor's Cup ceremony and a fall harvest ceremony with them.

But all religions over-rule reason with supersticion.  Use your head first, then fill in the gaps with your heart.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:06 PM, psyche101 said:

Do you feel people become homeless and poor despite better advice and the opportunity to do better?

Might be so in some cases but hard to see as a outright refusal to do better as a stereotype. I'd say a lot of homeless and poor people would rather not be and wouldn't be given better opportunities.

You've not met the homeless i have. Though some are good people it seems many are perfectly happy as they are. Those who would say they want opportunities are generally not homeless for long. They find opportunities and push ahead. But the majority of Chronically homeless don't want change. They simply want cash money to feed their habits and to eat for another day. Working isn't on their To Do list.

[+DieChecker]

On 1/5/2022 at 12:19 PM, Doug1066 said:

The unvaccinated can easily change their status simply by going to a place where the shots are being given and getting one.

I suppose one could easily change one's poor status by robbing a bank, or one's homeless status by simply moving into an unoccupied building.  Let's get real.

Doug

As true as that is, do you agree those responsible for their issues need to own their issues?

Or are many things seemingly controlled not really controlled? I hear people all the time at work trying to beg off bad decisions they made that caused expensive machinery damage, because they will claim it wasnt their fault. Some variable wasnt "controlled", and they dropped something, or pressed a wrong button.

[Doug1066]

35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

As true as that is, do you agree those responsible for their issues need to own their issues?

Or are many things seemingly controlled not really controlled? I hear people all the time at work trying to beg off bad decisions they made that caused expensive machinery damage, because they will claim it wasnt their fault. Some variable wasnt "controlled", and they dropped something, or pressed a wrong button.

Yes to both questions.  For things that are under an individual's control, they should take responsibility.

What the situation was in your shop, I don't know.  I guess it would depend on what OSHA rules said about the situation.  If the company has violated an OSHA rule, then they are responsible.  But if the company didn't violate a rule there is still a chance for an accident.  In running chain saws, the rules are designed to get the manufacturer off thy hook.  Ever try to saw in four feet of slash on a 60% side hill and not break one of the rules?

Sometimes, it's just not possible to tell who should bear the cost.  A person I know well was struck in the head by a hook hanging from a crane.  She didn't see it and the crane operator didn't she her.  Fortunately, injuries weren't serious, but it was close.

And my former boss was an accident looking for a place to happen.  He was loading a tractor onto a trailer pulled by a large pickup, but he never put the two railroad ties under the ramp to steady it and he forgot to tighten down the hitch.  When he drove the tractor up the ramp, the front of the trailer flew ten feet into the air and the tractor rolled off the ramp onto its side.  Fortunately, he was thrown clear.  But he and the organization did not take safety seriously.  There were lots of other accidents, like losing a backhoe into a creek.  So is it the fault of the individual who gets careless, or the organization that doesn't insist on safety?

Doug

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

As true as that is, do you agree those responsible for their issues need to own their issues?

Hi DieChecker

Absolutely but one has to determine what their issue is, is it just because someone said they have to do something or because they just don't want to comply?

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Or are many things seemingly controlled not really controlled?

We all have or should have the ability to control ourselves, on thing the military taught me is that I was not submitting myself to someone else but submitting to myself to myself to listen to what I was told.

 

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

I hear people all the time at work trying to beg off bad decisions they made that caused expensive machinery damage, because they will claim it wasnt their fault. Some variable wasnt "controlled", and they dropped something, or pressed a wrong button.

Human error is part of life and accepting and working with it is why we are the dominant species on this planet. There are greater repercussions for a denier than someone that stands up and admits their faults/onus

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

You've not met the homeless i have. Though some are good people it seems many are perfectly happy as they are. Those who would say they want opportunities are generally not homeless for long. They find opportunities and push ahead. But the majority of Chronically homeless don't want change. They simply want cash money to feed their habits and to eat for another day. Working isn't on their To Do list.

I'd say that's more an end result of deep depression wouldn't you? 

 I can't imagine anyone considers it a career choice. Habits can be formed. It sounds more like some just give up rather than make the choice. 

[el midgetron]

Mental illness and/or substance dependency covers a good chunk of homeless people’s situations, 

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

.  So is it the fault of the individual who gets careless, or the organization that doesn't insist on safety?

Doug

Similar to what you said... I'd say both. The operator should know better, and the company should enforce the safety rules. Even if that means having a extra guy on site to buddy check. 

Buddy check is a big thing now at my work since several expensive, and very long lead time, parts got damaged by carelessness.

For example, we definitely need to give the homeless a hand, but without a desire to improve themselves on their part, you're just essentially enabling their bad choices. So we can't just say the homeless are victims and need a total life coddle. They need to own making themselves better at least in part.

As such, I do agree those who are unvaxed need to own that status and not claim to be victims. But, if they want to own that, I see no issue with letting them do so. Those who want protection get vaxed and boosted, and Joe said they have "Very Good Protection", just yesterday.

[+DieChecker]

26 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Mental illness and/or substance dependency covers a good chunk of homeless people’s situations, 

And yet institutionalizing them against their will is the only way to actually help them. So we have to let them be. But we don't HAVE to coddle them IMHO.

[+DieChecker]

51 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'd say that's more an end result of deep depression wouldn't you? 

 I can't imagine anyone considers it a career choice. Habits can be formed. It sounds more like some just give up rather than make the choice. 

True. Many have just given up. Its the easy path. But its a destructive path.

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi DieChecker

Absolutely but one has to determine what their issue is, is it just because someone said they have to do something or because they just don't want to comply?

I've met many who just refuse to comply.

We had a homeless lady wander into a church service one time, she was scared to be out on the streets, and thought people were after her. We offered her whatever she needed, clothes, food, money, a place to stay temporary, but on condition she go to a shelter. She refused flat out. They have too many rules she said. She'd rather risk being raped or killed then follow the shelters rules. And this is a non religious shelter in liberal Oregon. Not a Catholic/religious forced service attendance shelter. 

Some just want no rules. Though mental illness is likely a part of that.

Quote

We all have or should have the ability to control ourselves, on thing the military taught me is that I was not submitting myself to someone else but submitting to myself to myself to listen to what I was told.

I always thought it funny that being in the military teaches self control, when you are actually being told what to do a large amount of the time.

(Former Army )

Quote

Human error is part of life and accepting and working with it is why we are the dominant species on this planet. There are greater repercussions for a denier than someone that stands up and admits their faults/onus

Absolutely. 

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I've met many who just refuse to comply.

We had a homeless lady wander into a church service one time, she was scared to be out on the streets, and thought people were after her. We offered her whatever she needed, clothes, food, money, a place to stay temporary, but on condition she go to a shelter. She refused flat out. They have too many rules she said. She'd rather risk being raped or killed then follow the shelters rules. And this is a non religious shelter in liberal Oregon. Not a Catholic/religious forced service attendance shelter. 

Some just want no rules. Though mental illness is likely a part of that.

Hi DieChecker

I live in a large city and they shut down many services for people with mental health issues over the years here so many of them end up living in shelters .exposed to criminal and drug manipulation. There are many reasons why people are homeless and you are right in that anyone who is earnest in life will not give up on changing their status.

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I always thought it funny that being in the military teaches self control, when you are actually being told what to do a large amount of the time.

(Former Army )

For me it was about self discipline I have known for a great many years that I could be a loose cannon that I needed to control or redirect into other endeavors and focus on a productive objective. I saw a certain valor that I needed to guide my lack of fear in life, we grew up in different places and did different things, I am the only one that will live with me for all my life and a lot that I learnt in the military about self disciple was a guide in life and not a religion.

By the way Happy New Year and best wishes to you and family.

[psyche101]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

True. Many have just given up. Its the easy path. But its a destructive path.

As we've discussed before that's pretty much human nature. The easy way. 

[Doug1066]

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

For example, we definitely need to give the homeless a hand, but without a desire to improve themselves on their part, you're just essentially enabling their bad choices. So we can't just say the homeless are victims and need a total life coddle. They need to own making themselves better at least in part.

Was it Los Angeles (?) that put up a bunch of "little houses," basically a bedroom with bath and kitchenette?  They let the homeless ove into them and have noticed an immediate improvement in the situation.  Most of the new tenants are working at some type of job, even if it's only flipping hamburgers and are paying their bills.

How do you go to a job interview if you haven't had a bath in two weeks?  If your homeless, you've got a major problem there.  There is a point in poverty that if you once sink below it, it becomes impossible to climb out again.

And a lot of the homeless have jobs, but they don't pay enough to live on.  A restaurant I eat at occasionally employs a homeless person as a busboy.  He washes up in their restroom and they provide him with two meals a day as part of his compensation.  I don't know where he sleeps, especially during the winter.

When I was a forester in Boulder, Colorado, we had a "mountain man," a hermit who lived on the State Section near Ward.  He lived out in the woods year-round and made most of his living by hunting and fishing and trading some of his catch for things he needed.  He also got SSI.  He was legally insane and would probably have been committed to an institution if they could ever find him.  He could not hold a job and that didn't really matter because there were no jobs in Ward.  But he wasn't hurting anything, so we just looked the other way and let him live there.  It was the legally insane part that kept him apart from other people.  I don't think there's any program that could have helped him.

What we need is to provide people with enough of a start that they can beat that permanent poverty point.  After that, they'll pretty much take care of themselves.

Doug

[Doug1066]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Though mental illness is likely a part of that.

Amen.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Was it Los Angeles (?) that put up a bunch of "little houses," basically a bedroom with bath and kitchenette?  They let the homeless ove into them and have noticed an immediate improvement in the situation.  Most of the new tenants are working at some type of job, even if it's only flipping hamburgers and are paying their bills.

I was reading up on that, and apparently they offered the homes to many, but only a few were able to abide by the rules and limitations. People who would likely find their way anyway.

I read about Covid Hotels in NYC that were made available by the city to the homeless due to no tourism, and the units got trashed.

Quote

How do you go to a job interview if you haven't had a bath in two weeks?  If your homeless, you've got a major problem there.  There is a point in poverty that if you once sink below it, it becomes impossible to climb out again.

Probably the same way a Latino immigrant comes here with nothing and gets a job, a place, and paperwork, all in just weeks. If a homeless person WANTS help, its not hard to find, IMHO.

Quote

And a lot of the homeless have jobs, but they don't pay enough to live on.  A restaurant I eat at occasionally employs a homeless person as a busboy.  He washes up in their restroom and they provide him with two meals a day as part of his compensation.  I don't know where he sleeps, especially during the winter.

I understand that. And such people very rarely stay on the street for long. Unless they wish to.

Quote

What we need is to provide people with enough of a start that they can beat that permanent poverty point.  After that, they'll pretty much take care of themselves.

Doug

I think that parallels what I said earlier. But, in my experience, many, many, refuse and stay on the street. Just saying. 

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Was it Los Angeles (?) that put up a bunch of "little houses," basically a bedroom with bath and kitchenette?  They let the homeless ove into them and have noticed an immediate improvement in the situation.  Most of the new tenants are working at some type of job, even if it's only flipping hamburgers and are paying their bills.

Maybe state supported housing and medical care is the way businesses can find burger flippers when so many want to move to better jobs.