Biden's botched Afghanistan exit is a disaster at home and abroad long in the making

[+OverSword]

44 minutes ago, TigerBright19 said:

What if the US gave up on Europe during the war?

 

US response - Sorry folks, you're on your own.

 

 

 

Seriously   Two non-comparable situations.  This is more like Vietnam.  No matter how many people we blew up, the people that live there that desire change were never going to stop.  Now if there is enough people in that country that want a different outcome they have plenty of guns and ammo to do the job, we made sure of that.  At some point this civil war will just have to be allowed.  Hopefully the Taliban won't let their country be used as a base from which to attack the rest of the world and we won't be forced to take over again.  I'm sure neither of us would like that.

[RavenHawk]

7 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Biden immediately blamed Trump in his ten minute speech 

 

Of course, he did because he is weak.  Trump uses the deal to size up his opposition.  Do you think that Trump would have completely pulled out or would he have made a last minute decision to stop the withdrawal?  Everyone knew what would happen if we pulled out like this, maybe except for Bidet and his handlers.  They look shocked at what is happening.  Afghanistan needed to be a multi-generational endeavor in order to build a real military and pride in one's nation (not just tribe).  In a very similar manner as England did with India and Pakistan.  And we didn't need masses of forces.  We could have had about 20k on a one year rotating schedule, with 2-3k there on a permanent basis, utilizing the afghan 300k proto-army with air assets to back them up.  Many don't like nation building and that's fine, but this is what we got.  I thought we would have learned with Obama, you don't pull out this way unless you want another ISIS or worse to form in the void.

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

You obviously don't see it.

I do see it.  I lived through that one too. Both times now I have had friends or relatives that were among the last ones out and both times some that did not make it out alive.  So what did you learn?

 

 

[Vorg]

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

Where Biden messed up was by putting a deadline for it to the public.  That date of 9/11 really gave encouragement to the Taliban fighters.  He should have said we will be working to continue to strengthen the Afghanis and have them take over the job of defending their nation, and then drawn down our troops and evacuated our partners on the downlow.

Trump had a May 1st date known to the world. I seriously doubt anything would have changed when our last troops were gone anyway.

If Over a quarter of a million Afghan troops have lain down their arms to the Taliban without a fight, I doubt the situation would have been any different, regardless, had it been a known, or unknown date.

[+OverSword]

5 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Trump had a May 1st date known to the world. I seriously doubt anything would have changed when our last troops were gone anyway.

If Over a quarter of a million Afghan troops have lain down their arms to the Taliban without a fight, I doubt the situation would have been any different, regardless, had it been a known, or unknown date.

Except for they didn't take over anything until the current president set a date in stone.  Prior to that taliban forces were mainly in the western edge of the country fighting Iranian backed shiite forces.

 

But yes.  It would have come to this regardless.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by OverSword

[Vorg]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Plenty of blood to go around.

Who was it that got  us into Afghanistan?  Bush

Who started the dustup with Iraq and diverted resources?  Bush

Who continued the policy and expanded use of unmanned aircraft , generated more "collateral damage"?  A great tool for Taliban recruitment. Obama.

Who negotiated the release of 5000 Taliban prisoners  including some of the current commanders?  Donald J Trump.

Who wanted to invite Taliban to Camp David?  Trump.

Who told the Afghan government we were getting out regardless?  Trump.

Who has been bragging in the last few weeks at public appearances about 21 years being enough and he did what others could not, set a date for withdrawal?  Who even threw in the brag that Biden wanted to stop it but couldn't?  Donald J Trump.

Who is commander-in-chief and bears responsibility today?  Biden.

If you just want more fuel for division and politics, you can weasel around the facts.

If you want to learn a lesson from history, better study history.

 

A positive legacy of President Trump is  ending some of the entanglements of the US in  the ME.  Some objected when he abandoned the Kurds.  At least we are trying to evacuate Afghan translators.   

So here is a choice, you can't have both so choose.

Call it painful but necessary and give former President Trump credit for reversing the trends under Bush and Obama and beginning the moves toward withdrawal.  Or blame Biden for the whole thing and forget that Trump  had a hand in starting something  so pivotal that it will make a lasting change in American foreign policy.

 

 

 

 

Who negotiated with terrorist? Donald J Trump

[Tatetopa]

14 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Of course, he did because he is weak.  Trump uses the deal to size up his opposition.  Do you think that Trump would have completely pulled out or would he have made a last minute decision to stop the withdrawal?

On 29 February 2020, the US and the Taliban signed a peace agreement titled the Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan,^[2] with provisions including the withdrawal of all regular American and NATO troops from Afghanistan, a Taliban pledge to prevent al-Qaeda from operating in areas under Taliban control, and talks between the Taliban and the government of the then Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.^[3] The deal was supported by China, Pakistan, and Russia,^[4] and unanimously endorsed by the United Nations Security Council.^[5]

The Trump administration agreed to an initial reduction from 13,000 to 8,600 troops by July 2020, followed by a full withdrawal by 1 May 2021 if the Taliban kept its commitments.^[6

 

Of course Trump would have  left, he knew that war no longer served  American interests. . When they wanted us to leave, Trump agreed to leave  by May 1 and even released 5000 of their  guys from jail to sweeten the deal.   You know well what would have happened with 8k or less American troops and 60k Taliban fighters dressed as civilians.  We no longer had the force to fight the Taliban and guard our backs against the Afghan government. Crenshaw said it, that we were drawn down into a policing force and had not seen an American causality in 18 months.  That was about to change. It was already too late the stop the draw down Trump had begun, and maybe that was one of Trump's best ideas for America.

 

[TigerBright19]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Dad's Army?

 

 

 

[Grey Area]

This situation bothers me… a lot.  It bothers me that an entire population is about to be oppressed into oblivion, it bothers me that the powers that be cannot go back because making a u-turn is ammunition for the political opposition, it bothers me that the Afghan army has handed over the entire country to the Taliban with all the assets and infrastructure more or less intact.  It bothers me, all that wasted time and resources.

That said…. You don’t conquer an entire nation in a few weeks without a comprehensive, well thought out strategy, and you don’t do it unless you think you can succeed.  This offensive must have been years in the planning.  While the top Taliban brass are educated and wealthy and probably from out of town, your average grunt is going to be local.  That means, while a few active bodies kept the pressure on where they could, they have likely existed in cells waiting for the call, keeping a low profile.  The Taliban have played the long game.  Whether the coalition pulled out now, next week or in 2 years, it’s likely the outcome would be the same.

I’m sorry to say I feel quite ashamed.  This can only be seen as a historic failure of foreign policy.

[TigerBright19]

11 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

This situation bothers me… a lot.  It bothers me that an entire population is about to be oppressed into oblivion, it bothers me that the powers that be cannot go back because making a u-turn is ammunition for the political opposition, it bothers me that the Afghan army has handed over the entire country to the Taliban with all the assets and infrastructure more or less intact.  It bothers me, all that wasted time and resources.

That said…. You don’t conquer an entire nation in a few weeks without a comprehensive, well thought out strategy, and you don’t do it unless you think you can succeed.  This offensive must have been years in the planning.  While the top Taliban brass are educated and wealthy and probably from out of town, your average grunt is going to be local.  That means, while a few active bodies kept the pressure on where they could, they have likely existed in cells waiting for the call, keeping a low profile.  The Taliban have played the long game.  Whether the coalition pulled out now, next week or in 2 years, it’s likely the outcome would be the same.

I’m sorry to say I feel quite ashamed.  This can only be seen as a historic failure of foreign policy.

It feels like everything that was accomplished after 9/11 with the war on terror was a complete waste of time, money, and so many lives.  The Taliban will probably mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11 with celebration.  Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS.  It feels like everything in the middle east has got worse over the years, instead of better and the US is turning its back on the people they were helping.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by TigerBright19

[Tatetopa]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Except for they didn't take over anything until the current president set a date in stone.  Prior to that taliban forces were mainly in the western edge of the country fighting Iranian backed shiite forces

They were waiting for May 1, the date the 45th President agreed to.  Contrary to what some say, you don't make treaties just to feel out the other side, we were going to honor it and leave.  Two months later, they were ready to move in and we still have not left as per our agreement.  They started moving their junk in to  let us know they were serious.

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

51 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Of course, he did because he is weak.  Trump uses the deal to size up his opposition.  Do you think that Trump would have completely pulled out or would he have made a last minute decision to stop the withdrawal?  Everyone knew what would happen if we pulled out like this, maybe except for Bidet and his handlers.  They look shocked at what is happening.  Afghanistan needed to be a multi-generational endeavor in order to build a real military and pride in one's nation (not just tribe).  In a very similar manner as England did with India and Pakistan.  And we didn't need masses of forces.  We could have had about 20k on a one year rotating schedule, with 2-3k there on a permanent basis, utilizing the afghan 300k proto-army with air assets to back them up.  Many don't like nation building and that's fine, but this is what we got.  I thought we would have learned with Obama, you don't pull out this way unless you want another ISIS or worse to form in the void.

Having an empire is bad mouthed as an evil tyrannical thing, while ignoring the fact that empire is often needed.

You cannot go into a country where ideology is different, depose the regime, setup a new government style, leave, and expect it to be stable. You have to conquer them and keep them under rule for at least a couple of centuries during which you shape and mould their views and thoughts over several generations.

And you dont need many troops after the initial fighting. 10,000 troops and have them at the helm of their national army. A civil service of 10,000 employees heading 200,000 of their own people in the civil service.

[Duke Wellington]

5 minutes ago, TigerBright19 said:

It feels like everything that was accomplished after 9/11 with the war on terror was a complete waste of time, money, and so many lives.  The Taliban will probably mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11 with celebration.

 

With also slipped and forgotten that there was no evidence the Taliban were responsible for 9/11.

[Tatetopa]

3 minutes ago, TigerBright19 said:

It feels like everything that was accomplished after 9/11 with the war on terror was a complete waste of time, money, and so many lives.  The Taliban will probably mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11 with celebration.

Not totally.  There has not been another 9/11 in  20 years. Osama bin Laden got taken out, Al Qaeda camps were bombed and disbanded.  Maybe we should have quit then. 

But on the bright side, the Taliban promised President Trump  they would not allow foreign terrorists to operate from their territory.  Will they keep their word?  Hard to believe.

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

I think people are missing the point.

Biden messed up not by leaving Afghanistan. Both him and Trump planned to do that. Its unfortunately/fortunately what most people wanted.

The **** up is how he did it.

Our allies got ****ed. We didn't have time to get our translators and those who helped us out. Some of who have now literally been beheaded.

We should of gotten everyone out before pulling the troops out.

 

I totally agree with you, we should have done everything possible to get our allies out, it's a travesty and it makes me sick. The way this was handled is unforgivable, this entire situation could have been handled differently and still brought our soldiers home. Man, this just makes me so angry and so very sad for those who are paying for this botched withdraw with their lives.

[TigerBright19]

34 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

With also slipped and forgotten that there was no evidence the Taliban were responsible for 9/11.

US policy - Bomb first, and ask questions later.

 

20 years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

**** like this is so depressing. It really gets to me.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/08/16/kabul-clinging-to-airplane-taking-off-tarmac-afghanistan-ward-vpx.cnn

I can't imagine that type of fear where I am literally trying to cling to an airplane to leave my home. 

The people who live in the city want the most basic level of human rights but can't because they live around a ton of dumb **** backwards incel inbred Taliban.

 

 

 

I totally agree, I can't even watch the news it just makes to angry and sad to see the looks on these people's faces.

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, Trelane said:

Saddened, even devastated, thinking of those in peril with lessened hope for their future and that of their children. This result was not inevitable, nor were our sacrifices in vain. I will continue to pray for those brave and honorable Afghans that stood with us. And I will always cherish the Service Members and Civilians I served with during this important mission. I am even more saddened by the stinging loss others will feel for losing their sons and daughters there while seeing these events unfold. I'm just numb to how this has happened..

 

Very very well said my friend but like you said the out come was not inevitable, the entire withdraw could have been handled differently. This is a failure at the highest level of our Government, it appears to be another case where a President did not follow the advice of his military leaders, because if had thing would have been very different.

[aztek]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

With also slipped and forgotten that there was no evidence the Taliban were responsible for 9/11.

are there any now?

[WVK]

Interesting analysis:

AFGHANISTAN COLLAPSE: Everything You Need To Know About Fall Of Kabul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qbxqq-7Dv4

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

In this situation there is only one person who is responsible for how this played and that is President Biden and no one else.

[TigerBright19]

Assuming there are future attacks in America and Europe that are linked to Afghanistan (especially with thousands of prisoners released and US resources left behind) what is the next step to securing the war on terror again in Afghanistan?  It is inevitable that some future nation or president will have to deal with it.  In the meantime we are apparently just going to provide humanitarian help and open the gates to thousands of Afghan refugees.  What a mess.  The Afghan war is finally over and the Taliban won.  I've been told that the Russians did a better job when they occupied Afghanistan.  Maybe it's time to let Chinese and Russian forces control the country.  They might as well have a go.  Can't be any worse than it is now over there.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by TigerBright19

[WVK]

31 minutes ago, TigerBright19 said:

Assuming there are future attacks in America and Europe that are linked to Afghanistan (especially with thousands of prisoners released and US resources left behind) what is the next step to securing the war on terror again in Afghanistan?  It is inevitable that some future nation or president will have to deal with it.  In the meantime we are apparently just going to provide humanitarian help and open the gates to thousands of unvetted Afghan refugees.  What a mess.

 

Might be time to be more selective about who crosses our southern border 

[F3SS]

5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

All along what?  And so what?  Are you concerned that the Chinese will now be dragged into an unwinnable endless war for desert, opium, and unreasonable zealots?

What if the Chinese weren't concerned about rules of engagement? Thats the only way to secure these areas in a cinch and win an ideological war within a border. China might be brutal enough to do it. 

[Duke Wellington]

35 minutes ago, F3SS said:

What if the Chinese weren't concerned about rules of engagement? Thats the only way to secure these areas in a cinch and win an ideological war within a border. China might be brutal enough to do it. 

It is funny watching a liberal democracy spamming years of propaganda through the media claiming every one on the planet wants its form of government, if only the oppressive regime was removed. Only to find as soon as it admits defeat and leaves, the population very quickly reverts back to their old ways. So quickly, its hard to imagine anything else going on than the people welcoming it back with open arms. Including the army the liberal democracy trained and equipped.

It happened in Iraq, they built an Islamic Caliphate using American tanks. Now it is happening in Afghanistan. And to rub salt into the wound there is also China who decided to do what it wanted to do in Hong Kong, telling us to get lost with our own way.

Biden is finished, in the short-term he has damaged his credibility, in the long-term he has problems coming. When terror attacks occur people are going to be very critical of him and he wont get re-elected.

There is no example in history of a resistance to an occupation being defeated. What the Taliban has done reminds me of the plans to fight an alien invasion. Hide in the caves and wilderness, keep breeding, keep launching attacks, and when they have lost enough people or spent too much cash they will give up and go home. If you look at Wiki and you include the forces of Afghanistan that we trained and put in place, then you can see our side has even had more deaths and wounded than the theirs. As far as I`m concerned thats total victory to them.

And as we leave they acquire a well equipped army consisting of all the latest American gear. Maybe Biden should call up Trump and ask how to build a wall around Afghanistan?

And yes, no evidence that the Taliban did 9/11 exists so we didn`t even win the moral argument for going in.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Cookie Monster