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Biden's botched Afghanistan exit is a disaster at home and abroad long in the making


Manwon Lender
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18 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Because nobody told them it was unsafe. 

Hi Acidhead

So they needed to be told that sh!t was going to hit the fan living in a country like that, hmm,...well what can I say?

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19 minutes ago, acidhead said:

The Biden Administration  YES

 

18 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Taliban Biden

But not worse than Hitler so that's a step up.

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9 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Acidhead

So they needed to be told that sh!t was going to hit the fan living in a country like that, hmm,...well what can I say?

And these people call Biden stupid?????

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1 hour ago, closed for business said:

Hi Diechecker

I have to wonder why so many stayed until the last minute when they all have known for the last year that this was going to happen or at least get the wives and children moved well in advance if the men were needed till evac? It's not like an act of nature such as tornado or earthquake that leaves little time to prepare and I am not blaming anyone for anything just think it's odd that they weren't worried enough about their personal safety until the last minute. Individuals and families should been out of there months ago.

True. From my time in the Army, I remember the military provided all kinds of help to move the civilians. I can't believe all the civilians just got tough guy about it, so I imagine somewhere, someone, screwed up on the planning. 

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55 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Civilian ??

The very first paragraph at your link states:

The U.S. currently has roughly 600 troops in Afghanistan, most of whom are Marine Corps and Army personnel providing security at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul.

What was the immediate threat at that time? 

Once a more apparent threat was visible, support troops were sent in. 

600 armed forces personnel remained. They did not entirely evacuate as you have stated. A minimal contingent remained. 

Those where located ONLY at the Embassy. They were not helping evacuations, or protecting roads and airports. That was "security" forces... US contractors.

So, true, there was some people there to help over a long term to evacuate people, but not enough to even secure the road from Kabul to the airport, much less the airport.

All the military units left. A combat troops left. Those 600 were Embassy security, not combat troops.

Quote

We did that ages ago. There's an old thread in the Aussie section.

Not sure where you're getting that from. Now that Afghanistan's leaders buckled, we aren't leaving the airport either 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/20/australian-forces-wont-leave-kabul-airport-to-help-citizens-blocked-at-taliban-checkpoints

I thought you said they went and rescued people earlier in the thread. 

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43 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Acidhead

So they needed to be told that sh!t was going to hit the fan living in a country like that, hmm,...well what can I say?

They likely had been told they'd be evacuated in time. And they believed what they were told.

They were told by Biden's chosen experts that they had two years to leave. 

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I think it comes down to this...

Biden has said the buck stops with him.

He's been Commander in Chief for 7 months.

He chose to believe the analysts that said the Taliban would not take over quickly. He's on record saying such.

He was wrong, and people, US citizens, are now stuck behind unfriendly lines.

All facts. He owns this.

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35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

True. From my time in the Army, I remember the military provided all kinds of help to move the civilians. I can't believe all the civilians just got tough guy about it, so I imagine somewhere, someone, screwed up on the planning. 

Hi Diechecker

Each of us has the ability and responsibility to look after our families and if I was in that country knowing that it was going to be handed back I would have gotten them out long ago. I don’t believe much about govt in general other than when I worked for them that their cheques don’t bounce. People have know this was coming and anyone with citizenship that was non-essential should have left without needling to be told.

Edited by closed for business
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8 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think it comes down to this...

Biden has said the buck stops with him.

He's been Commander in Chief for 7 months.

He chose to believe the analysts that said the Taliban would not take over quickly. He's on record saying such.

He was wrong, and people, US citizens, are now stuck behind unfriendly lines.

All facts. He owns this.

Hi Diechecker

Everyone had their thumb up their or someone else’s butt on this one and no matter who pulls their thumb out it will stink. Blaming achieves nothing for those in need and instead everyone(all parties) should stand side by side to resolve these types of situations rather than use them to divide your country 

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3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

This comes from all Abrahamic religions.

Thats right, they all say there will be a world wide religious state in the run up to the apocalypse. The thing is the Taliban want it to be their religious state, ISIS its, and every other fundamentalist thinks it will be theirs. This is why ISIS adopted a black flag, as the texts say it will have one. It might have nothing to do with any of them, it could be a group of Christians or even Jews that to do.

But for those who want to wage war against the world that is dangerous (oh yes, the texts all say it is established by slaughtering everyone who opposes it). And its why the Taliban need to be snubbed out of existence.

Edited by Cookie Monster
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30 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think it comes down to this...

Biden has said the buck stops with him.

He's been Commander in Chief for 7 months.

He chose to believe the analysts that said the Taliban would not take over quickly. He's on record saying such.

He was wrong, and people, US citizens, are now stuck behind unfriendly lines.

All facts. He owns this.

How many people are stuck there?

Is any number actually confirmed?

How many are Taliban taking advantage to set up cells in the US? What's your vetting process?

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58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

True. From my time in the Army, I remember the military provided all kinds of help to move the civilians. I can't believe all the civilians just got tough guy about it, so I imagine somewhere, someone, screwed up on the planning. 

It's not the Miltaries job to evacuate civilians,I have lived overseas in many location and the US Embassies make it clear that military escorts for evacuation will most likely not be possible in an emergency. So actually no one screwed up and all US Citizens were warned more than a month in advance. Any US Citizens still left in Afghanistan who haven't been evacuated are the ones who screwed up. Now this is very sad situation, I don't take it lightly but when you travel overseas it's that persons responsible to take the necessary actions to protect yourself. All I can say is I hope they all come home safely. 

All US Embassies overseas have an emergency alert program called STEP which US Citizens are required to sign up for when they enter any Country outside the US. Through this program you receive phone alerts and email alerts in case of emergencies. The following emergency orders were issued by the US Embassy on the Date below 

Security Alert U.S. Embassy Kabul, Afghanistan (August 7, 2021) https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul-afghanistan-august-7-2021/

In the message below the Embassy is telling US Citizens that all transportation services are operational and US Citizens should consider leaving now.

Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul, Afghanistan (July 15, 2021) https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul-afghanistan-july-15-2021/

Below is all the STEP security messages from the US Embassy with dates. Before anyone makes comments that people were not warned or given instructions to leave check out all the security messages below, they clearly show that all US Citizens were warned:    https://af.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/security-and-travel-information/ 

 

@closed for business 

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

This comes from all Abrahamic religions.

Thats right, they all say there will be a world wide religious state in the run up to the apocalypse. The thing is the Taliban want it to be their religious state, ISIS its, and every other fundamentalist thinks it will be theirs. This is why ISIS adopted a black flag, as the texts say it will have one. It might have nothing to do with any of them, it could be a group of Christians or even Jews that to do.

But for those who want to wage war against the world that is dangerous (oh yes, the texts all say it is established by slaughtering everyone who opposes it). And its why the Taliban need to be snubbed out of existence.

Now that they are feeling victorious and are threatening the globe, isn't that a very likely outcome? They had a home ground advantage so far.

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56 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think it comes down to this...

Biden has said the buck stops with him.

He's been Commander in Chief for 7 months.

He chose to believe the analysts that said the Taliban would not take over quickly. He's on record saying such.

He was wrong, and people, US citizens, are now stuck behind unfriendly lines.

All facts. He owns this.

You don't understand the US Citizens evacuation process, anyone who is stuck made some terrible choices they were warned. See post 487

Here is the US Embassy Alert system transmitted to all US Citizens who did their duty and signed in to the US Embassy when they enter country like they were suppose to. 

https://af.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/security-and-travel-information/

Edited by Manwon Lender
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1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

I thought you said they went and rescued people earlier in the thread. 

 

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4 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Diechecker

Each of us has the ability and responsibility to look after our families and if I was in that country knowing that it was going to be handed back I would have gotten them out long ago. I don’t believe much about govt in general other than when I worked for them that their cheques don’t bounce. People have know this was coming and anyone with citizenship that was non-essential should have left without needling to be told.

As true as that is, not to be rude but, have you been in the military? They own you. You don't have the same civil rights as a civilian. You can't control (to a large extent) where you go, or what you do to your body. Getting a tattoo can be punished by fines, confinement, or worse.

This is true of their families to a very real extent if they live overseas, or even just on base housing. Those families, unless they spend their own money, that few have, are trapped waiting on the military to move them. Its a sad, but true fact.

Edited by DieChecker
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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

... all US Citizens were warned more than a month in advance.

Can you please reference this? I had not heard this before.

Quote

Security Alert U.S. Embassy Kabul, Afghanistan (August 7, 2021) https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul-afghanistan-august-7-2021/

In the message below the Embassy is telling US Citizens that all transportation services are operational and US Citizens should consider leaving now.

Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul, Afghanistan (July 15, 2021) https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul-afghanistan-july-15-2021/

Below is all the STEP security messages from the US Embassy with dates. Before anyone makes comments that people were not warned or given instructions to leave check out all the security messages below, they clearly show that all US Citizens were warned: https://af.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/security-and-travel-information/ 

You do realize that July 7 is 5 days AFTER the last combat unit left Afghanistan?

And July 15 is the same day as the fall of Kabul.

Thats not a month of notice, that is just over a week, 8 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020–2021)

Quote

On 2 July 2021, Germany and Italy withdrew their troops from Afghanistan.[87] On the same day, American forces vacated Bagram Airfield. Afghan officials complained that the Americans had left without notifying the new Afghan commander until more than two hours after abandoning the base. As a result, the base was ransacked by looters before they could take control of the airfield.

Quote

However, following the Fall of Kabul to the Taliban on 15 August, ...

Can you please confirm how much warning the embassy gave?

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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You don't understand the US Citizens evacuation process, anyone who is stuck made some terrible choices they were warned. See post 487

Here is the US Embassy Alert system transmitted to all US Citizens who did their duty and signed in to the US Embassy when they enter country like they were suppose to. 

https://af.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/security-and-travel-information/

Which one warned them to leave before July 15 when Kabul was captured? Here's a screen shot.

Screenshot_20210826-034047_Chrome_resize_28.jpg.972838cfa966e1186c087b5e2d46eea0.jpg

 

Was it the alert on June 16, or the one on July 15???

Please let me know which one in your link is the alert I need to read.

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4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

As true as that is, not to be rude but, have you been in the military?

Hi Diechecker

Yes I have.:tu:

4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

They own you.

Yes one belongs to the flavor of the day, what is the point you knew what the life was before you joined and chose to live it.

7 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You don't have the same civil rights as a civilian.

That is true as well as a higher expectation of commitment

9 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You can't control (to a large extent) where you go, or what you do to your body. Getting a tattoo can be punished by fines, confinement, or worse.

To a point but that didn't seem to matter in the jr nco's wet mess or passes to town we had fun. Different country so maybe some attitudes about things like tats are different.

14 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

This is true of their families to a greater extent if they live overseas, or even just on base housing. Those families, unless they spend their own money, that few have, are trapped waiting on the military to move them. Its a sad, but true fact.

I am not just talking about military and was am primarily concerned about women and children civilian or otherwise and expect that they have or can access funds to get home. I would rather get killed then let a wife or daughter live a life of abuse and fear in a foreign country and ensure they got out safely first as soon as possible.

If people did not pay attention to what was going on in that country especially if they get phone and email warnings or advisories then yes they made bad choices and have empathy for those that are in this situation. All I am saying is that people have to accept their personal responsibility and not detract by blaming the govt, if I go to work without my hardhat and steel toes and get hurt should I blame the boss even though there are signs all over the site telling you that you must have ppe?

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3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

How many people are stuck there?

Is any number actually confirmed?

How many are Taliban taking advantage to set up cells in the US? What's your vetting process?

Unknown. Several media outlets have asked repeatedly these same questions and the Administration is giving them the run around. So, AFAIK, there is no official numbers.

The point of Taliban getting onto refugee planes has been brought up by news sources, and the Administration basically chuckled and called it a conspiracy theory.

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8 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Diechecker

Yes I have.:tu:

Yes one belongs to the flavor of the day, what is the point you knew what the life was before you joined and chose to live it.

That is true as well as a higher expectation of commitment

Thanks for serving. I just meant to point out to those saying the "families should have just left", is that some, Jr NCOs, and lower enlisted, dont have the resources to just leave. Even a E5 doesn't make a pile of cash.

Quote

To a point but that didn't seem to matter in the jr nco's wet mess or passes to town we had fun. Different country so maybe some attitudes about things like tats are different.

True. Theres a lot of looking away. But they CAN do it if they wish to.

Quote

I am not just talking about military and was am primarily concerned about women and children civilian or otherwise and expect that they have or can access funds to get home. I would rather get killed then let a wife or daughter live a life of abuse and fear in a foreign country and ensure they got out safely first as soon as possible.

If people did not pay attention to what was going on in that country especially if they get phone and email warnings or advisories then yes they made bad choices and have empathy for those that are in this situation. All I am saying is that people have to accept their personal responsibility and not detract by blaming the govt, if I go to work without my hardhat and steel toes and get hurt should I blame the boss even though there are signs all over the site telling you that you must have ppe?

Please look at my posts to Manwon. The Embassy didn't tell people to leave explicitly till the 7th. Days after the last combat troops (Other then in the Embassy itself) had left. When it was clear the Taliban was going to take over in a few more days.

Before that, the Biden Administration, and presumably the Embassy, were telling people it would be completely safe for months or years.

Edited by DieChecker
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2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Thanks for serving. I just meant to point out to those saying the families should have just left that some, Jr NCOs, and lower enlisted, dont have the resources to just leave. Even a E5 doesn't make a pile of cash.

Hi Diechecker

Thanks and to you as well. To be honest I have been somewhat more concerned about civilian attitudes and safety and yes I agree about the pay, personally I never would take family into a zone like that whether I was military or civilian. I suspect that there are a significant number of Afghan-Americans that comprise the American civilians that are trapped to start will that may not have understood or maybe cared to understand about the warning system or were just too confident about staying home I don't know. What I do know is that if 18 months ago people knew that Afghanistan would no long have an American presence and would have started planning and packing then for family no matter what circumstances were that I was living in as I had a time frame to work in.

I would think that most of them have family in both countries and could quite readily pay costs to leave, military families will be kept secure and not likely unaccounted for so I have more confidence in their safety than I do for others.

 

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1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Unknown. Several media outlets have asked repeatedly these same questions and the Administration is giving them the run around. So, AFAIK, there is no official numbers.

The point of Taliban getting onto refugee planes has been brought up by news sources, and the Administration basically chuckled and called it a conspiracy theory.

I thought we were fighting them there  to protect the Homeland,. Now we’re flying them in?  That will provide the Security State all the reason it needs to further restrict our civil liberties

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Anybody else ever think about how many Afghans were "promised" the American dream and safe passage to the US ?

After 20 years, more than likely half of Kabul if not a quarter of Afghanistan 

~

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7 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Acidhead

So they needed to be told that sh!t was going to hit the fan living in a country like that, hmm,...well what can I say?

 

7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

And these people call Biden stupid?????

You guys are literally calling the Americans stuck in Afghanistan “stupid”.
 

Your entire premise that they should have gotten out in advance but didn’t, so it’s their fault for not knowing, ignores the fact that BIDEN didnt know either. Presumably because no one “told” him. So who is more stupid for that? The translator working in Afghanistan for the US? Or the Commander in Chief of the United States of America? Or how about the people who continue to support American-abandoning Biden?
 

 

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