Biden's botched Afghanistan exit is a disaster at home and abroad long in the making

[psyche101]

50 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

So Biden has made his first mistake (and arguably the biggest one in a generation).

All world leaders are blaming him, even the biased lefty US media have turned on him. We all know what that means. If election corruption did in fact go on, then due to the enemies Biden has now made, it wont be too long before people start coming forward to get rid of him.

Those after his job will do it, those who are disgusted at him will do it.

Two decades and the place fell in a week.

He did the right thing. 

[Likely Guy]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Two decades and the place fell in a week.

He did the right thing. 

He did what he had to do, (there was no option) but it wasn't 'right'.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Likely Guy

[psyche101]

Just now, Likely Guy said:

He did what he had to do, (there was no option) but it wasn't 'right'.

I really don't agree. Tate asked the pertinent questions on that I reckon. 

I honestly think that the last week has only illustrated just how overdue this move was. The speed at which the country fell just shows the effort was a waste of time and resources. Should have left once Bin Laden was sorted. 

I get that it has left the country in a mess but I can't see that changing under other conditions. The Taliban have been waiting patiently for this all along. 

The people who kept the war going have armed them now. The Taliban are in a better position than they were ten years ago. 

[el midgetron]

He did the right thing???? He is going to abandon Americans in a **** hole of thuggery. There is no reason he couldn’t have gotten those Americans and our allies out of there before fumbling Biden’s withdraw. VP Kamala already claimed she played a “key role” in the debacle before it blew up in their face so she shares responsibility.  
 

You can make the case we never should have been there, but we were. There is no sector in which you can blame your failures on the previous guy other than government. Biden inherited the situation in Afghanistan, that situation is not his fault but his solution to it is 100% on him. There is zero reasons why Americans should be left behind to witness the murder/rape fest of the Taliban.

 

[Likely Guy]

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I really don't agree. Tate asked the pertinent questions on that I reckon. 

I honestly think that the last week has only illustrated just how overdue this move was. The speed at which the country fell just shows the effort was a waste of time and resources. Should have left once Bin Laden was sorted. 

I get that it has left the country in a mess but I can't see that changing under other conditions. The Taliban have been waiting patiently for this all along. 

The people who kept the war going have armed them now. The Taliban are in a better position than they were ten years ago.

I see your point, it didn't have to become what it did,  it was one screwed up executive decision after another.

Re: the bolded part, That wouldn't have solved a thing in itself.

[el midgetron]

59 minutes ago, acidhead said:

81 million votes

 

[psyche101]

8 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

I see your point, it didn't have to become what it did,  it was one screwed up executive decision after another.

Re: the bolded part, That wouldn't have solved a thing in itself.

Thing is it's not the US that's at fault here. It's the Afghan government and military. It's a mess, I agree. I just don't think that would change no matter what. 

[Likely Guy]

8 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

There is no reason he couldn’t have gotten those Americans and our allies out of there before fumbling Biden’s withdraw.

It's everyone's fault. But you choose to blame a seven month president for the faults of the last 20 years..

[el midgetron]

3 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

It's everyone's fault. But you choose to blame a seven month president for the faults of the last 20 years..

It’s not everyone’s fault. You can blame Bush and the neocons for getting us into the mess and you can blame Biden for the disastrous attempt to get us out of the mess but that’s about it. 

[Likely Guy]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Thing is it's not the US that's at fault here. It's the Afghan government and military. It's a mess, I agree. I just don't think that would change no matter what. 

No, just not the US or the Afghan  government, it was the Coalition (including Canada) as well as supportive Islamic radical groups, plus the fake borders drawn up by the imperial powers  after WW1, and on, and on, ad naseum.

[Likely Guy]

6 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

It’s not everyone’s fault. You can blame Bush and the neocons for getting us into the mess and you can blame Biden for the disastrous attempt to get us out of the mess but that’s about it. 

You can blame Obama as well for escalating it with arbitrary drone strikes and Trump for giving the Taliban a 'blank check', diplomatically.

Not one administration hand's are clean.

Edit: It almost sounds that you want to ignore 12 years out of a 20 year struggle.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Likely Guy

[psyche101]

32 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

He did the right thing???? He is going to abandon Americans in a **** hole of thuggery. There is no reason he couldn’t have gotten those Americans and our allies out of there before fumbling Biden’s withdraw. VP Kamala already claimed she played a “key role” in the debacle before it blew up in their face so she shares responsibility.  

Yes he did. He is pulling Americans out. Enough have lost lives in this effort already. 

Quote

You can make the case we never should have been there, but we were. There is no sector in which you can blame your failures on the previous guy other than government. Biden inherited the situation in Afghanistan, that situation is not his fault but his solution to it is 100% on him. There is zero reasons why Americans should be left behind to witness the murder/rape fest of the Taliban.

No more Americans will be sent there for war. So no new body counts. Troops remain to evacuate the remainder of Americans. How many more Americans do you feel should die for what we can see is no good reason at all? 

Edited August 19, 2021 by psyche101

[el midgetron]

Just now, Likely Guy said:

You can blame Obama as well for escalating it with arbitrary drone strikes and Trump for giving the Taliban a 'blank check', diplomatically.

Not one administration hand's are clean.

I honestly don’t know how you can blame both Trump and Obama for doing what you claim. Funding the Taliban and bombing the Taliban seem like two ends of the response spectrum. Are you really blaming both those responses for perpetuating the situation or are you just  trying to blame everyone but Biden?

[el midgetron]

4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Yes he did. He is pulling Americans out. Enough have lost loved on this effort already. 

No more Americans will be sent there for war. So no new body counts. Troops remain to evacuate the remainder of Americans. How many more Americans do you feel should die for what we can see is no good reason at all? 

How do people even try to defend this?

Quote

U.S. forces can’t help Americans flee to Kabul airport, Pentagon chief says

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/us-forces-cant-help-americans-flee-to-kabul-airport-pentagon-chief-says.html
 

The situation isn’t Biden’s fault but his disastrous response is. He left Americans behind and you are turning you back on them as well. 

[psyche101]

14 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

No, just not the US or the Afghan  government, it was the Coalition (including Canada) as well as supportive Islamic radical groups, plus the fake borders drawn up by the imperial powers  after WW1, and on, and on, ad naseum.

But this wasn't a surprise. Trump first made the deal in 2020. 

The retreat of the Afghan government and military are the cause of the violence. They knew the torch was being passed over to them. They abandoned their own people. Left them to the Taliban without a fight in most instances.

I just don't think any more foreign lives should be lost to a country not prepared or willing to defend itself.

I don't think it's fair to blame America, or Biden for what are Afghan failures.

Were they ever prepared to fight them? I'm not sure they were.

[Likely Guy]

5 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

I honestly don’t know how you can blame both Trump and Obama for doing what you claim. Funding the Taliban and bombing the Taliban seem like two ends of the response spectrum. Are you really blaming both those responses for perpetuating the situation or are you just  trying to blame everyone but Biden?

How many times do I have to say this? They've ****ed up all the way back from Reagan, when he funded the 'Freedom Fighters' (the modern Taliban) against the Communists, until Biden's big recent screw up.

What I'm saying is, is that you cannot pin it on one administration. Am I clear?

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

He is speaking rubbish about Oz too. It's gone to a vote many times over the years. Failed every time. 

We can't agree on a republican model.  We seem to imagine that a popularly elected ceremonial official will remain non-politicised and never break convention.

Poor Old Cookie Monster's delusion of the primacy of Whitehall was dispelled more than 60 years ago by Curtin.

What a silly Cookie Monster.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Golden Duck

[psyche101]

3 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

How do people even try to defend this?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/us-forces-cant-help-americans-flee-to-kabul-airport-pentagon-chief-says.html
 

The situation isn’t Biden’s fault but his disastrous response is. He left Americans behind and you are turning you back on them as well. 

The military won't be entirely pulled out until every American has been evacuated.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/biden-afghanistan-troops-evacuation-taliban-51df208e-9574-4305-9f71-b2461e2f2298.html

 

If lives are what you are worried about, why would you want more Americans to die there? How many have to date?

[Likely Guy]

12 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I just don't think any more foreign lives should be lost to a country not prepared or willing to defend itself.

I don't think it's fair to blame America, or Biden for what are Afghan failures.

That  is a fair enough assessment, but... it's almost like blaming the meal itself for what's for dinner tonight and not the cook.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Likely Guy

[acidhead]

48 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

China mocking Biden and the USA

 

[DarkHunter]

13 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

when he funded the 'Freedom Fighters' (the modern Taliban) against the Communists

The Taliban didn't exist when the Russians were in Afghanistan and Reagan didnt fund them.

Essentially America generally funded mujahedeen groups that were more secular, a lot ended up evolving into the Northern Alliance during the Afghan civil war who resisted the Taliban.  Pakistan funded more religious extremists groups for their own geopolitical reasons.  The Taliban didnt come into existence till the Afghan civil war was well underway and they started off as a small opportunistic militist group that generally waited for rival warlords to fight themselves to exhaustion before moving in and taking both out.  Later on Pakistan started funding and equipping them after they showed they could take and hold territory and that is when they really started to take over Afghanistan.

The whole situation is complicated but saying Reagan funded and/or armed the Taliban is generally wrong.

[Likely Guy]

5 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The Taliban didn't exist when the Russians were in Afghanistan and Reagan didnt fund them.

Essentially America generally funded mujahedeen groups that were more secular, a lot ended up evolving into the Northern Alliance during the Afghan civil war who resisted the Taliban.  Pakistan funded more religious extremists groups for their own geopolitical reasons.  The Taliban didnt come into existence till the Afghan civil war was well underway and they started off as a small opportunistic militist group that generally waited for rival warlords to fight themselves to exhaustion before moving in and taking both out.  Later on Pakistan started funding and equipping them after they showed they could take and hold territory and that is when they really started to take over Afghanistan.

The whole situation is complicated but saying Reagan funded and/or armed the Taliban is generally wrong.

Mea culpa.

But the US was meddling even in those days.

[acidhead]

81 million votes 

Elections have consequences 

[psyche101]

24 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

That  is a fair enough assessment, but... it's almost like blaming the meal itself for what's for dinner tonight and not the cook.

The only issue I have with that is there has been a timeline in place for quite a while. I honestly wonder if the plan was to run all along. 

But I do not disagree with you about every administration for more than twenty years building this situation. Going back that far though, personally I think that everyone not supporting the Shah was the beggining of the end for the entire region.

[DarkHunter]

6 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Mea culpa.

But the US was meddling even in those days.

America was definitely meddling and mistakes were made in both meddling too little and too much.

Getting involved initially with the Soviet invasion was questionable but when America did get involved we should of probably made the groups we backed won instead of letting the region devolve into a multitude of warlords fighting nonstop.  Now it's just a complete mess with no real easy or nice solutions.