Amarna, Before and After

[Wepwawet]

14 hours ago, Wistman said:

I neglected to show these 2 excerpts in the above post and think they should have been included, just to illustrate Johnson's initial (1996) points wrt Atenism:

and...

Ah, the good old days when you could declare yourself to be a god, multiple gods even. You can see that AIII has pulled strands together, and the unaswerable question it poses to me, is did he think there was just one god behind them all. The attention he paid to Ptah and Amun, and that he declared himself to be Khonsu, is evidence of a belief in the pantheon, that is if his attention to the non solar gods was genuine, or a charade to please the masses.

Without going into a more detailed post right now, I would ask is it time to reconsider Hornung's conclusions about "The One and the Many", at least when discussing religious belief within the royal household from at least the reign of Amunhotep II. For no matter what we think we know, when we get to Akhenaten we have monotheism, and I will put the Shu and Tefnut thing, as already stated, down to being a trinity in no less a way than the Christian concept of a trinity, objections to this, in my opinion, coming from a persons own religious views and needing to "downgrade pagan beliefs". Was AIII already a monotheist, at least in private, before his death, with himself as God, or at least the manifestation of God on Earth, not merely the living Horus.

[Wistman]

4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Ah, the good old days when you could declare yourself to be a god, multiple gods even. You can see that AIII has pulled strands together, and the unaswerable question it poses to me, is did he think there was just one god behind them all. The attention he paid to Ptah and Amun, and that he declared himself to be Khonsu, is evidence of a belief in the pantheon, that is if his attention to the non solar gods was genuine, or a charade to please the masses.

Without going into a more detailed post right now, I would ask is it time to reconsider Hornung's conclusions about "The One and the Many", at least when discussing religious belief within the royal household from at least the reign of Amunhotep II. For no matter what we think we know, when we get to Akhenaten we have monotheism, and I will put the Shu and Tefnut thing, as already stated, down to being a trinity in no less a way than the Christian concept of a trinity, objections to this, in my opinion, coming from a persons own religious views and needing to "downgrade pagan beliefs". Was AIII already a monotheist, at least in private, before his death, with himself as God, or at least the manifestation of God on Earth, not merely the living Horus.

AIII, it seems to me (in consideration of your above), is the pinnacle and embodiment of Egyptian synchreticism taken to its ultimate form and mystically declared alive in the world.  Akhenaten, I suppose, strips off all the doo-dads of synchreticism and declares himself the whole and unified principal, the very activity of the uber-God alive and present.  Though...Akhenaten I believe allowed for the sanctuaries of Ptah at Memphis and Re at Helipolis to continue to function, as well as others but not those of Amun. So some under-forms, say, of the God were permitted.  And maybe the priests of Amun couldn't accept demotion and were punished.

I am wondering when AIII, in his long life of formidable splendor and absolute power, decided to distinguish himself from his antecedents and skip the whole dying notion before deification.  Did he always see himself this way; was he always solipsistic?  Perhaps encouraged and nurtured by his father's court?  Or did it develop as years went by, and was there a triggering moment.  Like a psychotic split.  We don't know much to answer any of this before yr30, do we. 

What do you think...was the notion of pharaoh as living god baked into the pie already when AIII attained kingship as a child?  Would Yuya, if he was regent, have been influential in this regard, maybe?  Was this ideology perhaps introduced into the Thutmosid court by the Akhmin clan?

Edited December 6, 2023 by Wistman

[Aldebaran]

Most of us have seen the bit on YouTube about the Bhuddist monk who was encased inside a statue--but that is not the Egyptian way.  For one thing, no king of the pre or post Amarna periods has emerged as a mummy  that can be lauded as "well-preserved".  Evidently, things were being tried that did not succeed very well.  It has been supposed that KV55 dissolved into dust and bones due to damp having penetrated the tomb.  It may be so--things happen beyond the control of anyone.  The Tutankhamun mummy came out looking "cooked".  Too much resin poured on the remains?  Prof. Smith wrote that the packing material in the left arm of Amunhotep III was analyzed and was found to have consisted of resin mixed with carbonate, sulphate, and chloride of sodium [natron].  It turned to stony consistency beneath the skin of the mummy,  Smith: "Resinous material such as this is not known to have been employed at any other period for packing underneath the skin."

Not only that but the mummy of Amenhotep III had seen willful destruction and only some bandages used by the restorers were holding the king together.  Given innovations that probably failed and a mummy lying in pieces in his tomb--there seems no need to look for odd explanations for the state A III is in.  Even the secrets of a successful mummification are not necessarily guaranteed to be preserved.  Thutmose IV is a beautiful mummy but 38 years lapsed between his death and that of his son.  Since how-to knowledge was often preserved in families, it may have been that the men of a family who embalmed the royals were, themselves, wiped out by some means and it took some time for a successful technique to be discovered again.  Amunhotep III is certainly not an example of a successful mummification.  His extreme corpulence was a problem in itself.  Some of his statues show a man draped with a kind of robe because he is evidently now too short and fat to wear the traditional kingly costume.  Once desiccated by being covered in natron, the corpse would have become an appalling mass of flaps of loose skin.  Something had to be done to try to restore the shape of a man.

 

[Wepwawet]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:50 PM, Wistman said:

AIII, it seems to me (in consideration of your above), is the pinnacle and embodiment of Egyptian synchreticism taken to its ultimate form and mystically declared alive in the world.  Akhenaten, I suppose, strips off all the doo-dads of synchreticism and declares himself the whole and unified principal, the very activity of the uber-God alive and present.  Though...Akhenaten I believe allowed for the sanctuaries of Ptah at Memphis and Re at Helipolis to continue to function, as well as others but not those of Amun. So some under-forms, say, of the God were permitted.  And maybe the priests of Amun couldn't accept demotion and were punished.

I am wondering when AIII, in his long life of formidable splendor and absolute power, decided to distinguish himself from his antecedents and skip the whole dying notion before deification.  Did he always see himself this way; was he always solipsistic?  Perhaps encouraged and nurtured by his father's court?  Or did it develop as years went by, and was there a triggering moment.  Like a psychotic split.  We don't know much to answer any of this before yr30, do we. 

What do you think...was the notion of pharaoh as living god baked into the pie already when AIII attained kingship as a child?  Would Yuya, if he was regent, have been influential in this regard, maybe?  Was this ideology perhaps introduced into the Thutmosid court by the Akhmin clan?

I'll get back to this a little later. I just had to take a break from here to avoid damaging any more brain cells, and that's not just reading various posts, which can be avoided, but even seeing thread titles....

[atalante]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:50 PM, Wistman said:

.... Though...Akhenaten I believe allowed for the sanctuaries of Ptah at Memphis and Re at Helipolis to continue to function, as well as others but not those of Amun. So some under-forms, say, of the God were permitted.  And maybe the priests of Amun couldn't accept demotion and were punished.

I am wondering when AIII, in his long life of formidable splendor and absolute power, decided to distinguish himself from his antecedents and skip the whole dying notion before deification.  Did he always see himself this way; was he always solipsistic?  Perhaps encouraged and nurtured by his father's court?  Or did it develop as years went by, and was there a triggering moment.  Like a psychotic split.  We don't know much to answer any of this before yr30, do we. 

What do you think...was the notion of pharaoh as living god baked into the pie already when AIII attained kingship as a child?  Would Yuya, if he was regent, have been influential in this regard, maybe?  Was this ideology perhaps introduced into the Thutmosid court by the Akhmin clan?

Wistman, 

I suspect Akhenaten was purging, especially, the 18th Dynasty notion that Amun ruled from, and originated from, Gebel Barkal in Nubia.  But I don't have any info about how AIII treated Nubia as the origin of all Egyptian religion.  (Perhaps AIII's religious novelty was also a way to escape from the Nubian Amun.) 

[Wepwawet]

14 hours ago, atalante said:

Wistman, 

I suspect Akhenaten was purging, especially, the 18th Dynasty notion that Amun ruled from, and originated from, Gebel Barkal in Nubia.  But I don't have any info about how AIII treated Nubia as the origin of all Egyptian religion.  (Perhaps AIII's religious novelty was also a way to escape from the Nubian Amun.) 

I would just like to make some observations on this, while also sidestepping the deeper Nubian issue, at least for now.

I like your use of the word "purging", a word I don't recall being used that often for what he did before, though certainly implied in many other ways. It reminds of the totalitarians of the 20th Century and their purges of all that did not fit their world view. Lenin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot being the prime examples.

Briefly, and a bit superficially, on the Nubian question. Looking at how the AE treated non Egyptian gods it can be seen that they treated the Nubian gods differently to the gods of other states, even other vassal states. An Egyptian king can worship or come under the protection of a Syrian god, for instance Hauron, but when it comes to Nubia, the Egyptian kings, and I'll follow Siegried Morenz here, dominate the Nubian gods, they forcefully impose themselves on Nubia like nowhere else. A question, which I'm sidestepping, is why, though for myself I do not see Amun as having a Nubian origin.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Wepwawet

[Wistman]

5 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I would just like to make some observations on this, while also sidestepping the deeper Nubian issue, at least for now.

I like your use of the word "purging", a word I don't recall being used that often for what he did before, though certainly implied in many other ways. It reminds of the totalitarians of the 20th Century and their purges of all that did not fit their world view. Lenin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot being the prime examples.

Briefly, and a bit superficially, on the Nubian question. Looking at how the AE treated non Egyptian gods it can be seen that they treated the Nubian gods differently to the gods of other states, even other vassal states. An Egyptian king can worship or come under the protection of a Syrian god, for instance Hauron, but when it comes to Nubia, the Egyptian kings, and I'll follow Siegried Morenz here, dominate the Nubian gods, they forcefully impose themselves on Nubia like nowhere else. A question, which I'm sidestepping, is why, though for myself I do not see Amun as having a Nubian origin.

Question:  Wondering if this attitude of dominion over the gods of Nubia was prominent before the eighteenth dynasty, before the rise of Theban (nee Nubian maybe) Amun?  It is understandable I think that Egypt would want a pressure influence and hold over Nubia in general, given its strategic importance on Egypt's southern border, and perhaps more importantly the commodities to be got, especially gold, ivory, and cattle, also wrt control of the trade routes.  Nubian Kush was a powerful state,  esp. @1700 BCE, and again @1100 BCE and onward, so a rival to Egypt's power, but not during the 18D.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Wistman

[Wistman]

21 hours ago, atalante said:

Wistman, 

I suspect Akhenaten was purging, especially, the 18th Dynasty notion that Amun ruled from, and originated from, Gebel Barkal in Nubia.  But I don't have any info about how AIII treated Nubia as the origin of all Egyptian religion.  (Perhaps AIII's religious novelty was also a way to escape from the Nubian Amun.) 

Thanks for this your reference to the southern question of the Gebel Barkal and its importance to the Thutmosids. I remember in the past you referenced AIII's temple to Amun and the deified AIII in Soleb, joined by Akhenaten, Tutankhamun, and Ay a bit later.  But of course Akhenaten re-dedicated his temple to the Aten.  I can't recall at the moment, but did he shut down his father's Amun temple there?  And if he didn't, would you ascribe his not doing so attributable to the co-worship of his father (as the Aten) in that sanctuary?  Just curious.

[atalante]

19 hours ago, Wistman said:

Thanks for this your reference to the southern question of the Gebel Barkal and its importance to the Thutmosids. I remember in the past you referenced AIII's temple to Amun and the deified AIII in Soleb, joined by Akhenaten, Tutankhamun, and Ay a bit later.  But of course Akhenaten re-dedicated his temple to the Aten.  I can't recall at the moment, but did he shut down his father's Amun temple there?  And if he didn't, would you ascribe his not doing so attributable to the co-worship of his father (as the Aten) in that sanctuary?  Just curious.

Wistman,

AIII's representation of himself at his Soleb temple in Nubia is intriguing. 

 

Egypt's 18th dynasty "ram-headed" god Kamutef had been traditionally associated with Amon (in Nubia).  But in the Soleb temple, AIII portrays himself (AIII) "deified"as a ram-headed god.  I may be reading a bit too much into this iconography at Soleb; but it seems that AIII may have decided to deify himself (as Kamutef) at Soleb to intentionally "replace" Nubia's regional aspect for Kamutef.

 

 

from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soleb#Amarna_Period

Amenhotep III[edit]

A large temple made of sandstone was founded here by Amenhotep III. It is the southernmost temple currently known to have been built by this pharaoh. The temple was consecrated to the deity Amun Re and to the pharaoh depicted deified with ram-horns. The architect may have been Amenhotep, son of Hapu.

At Sedeinga, a companion temple was built by Amenhotep III to Queen Tiye as a manifestation of the Eye of Ra.

The so-called Prudhoe Lions originally stood as guardian figures at this temple inscribed with the name of Amenhotep III. They depict a lioness, as symbols of Sekhmet, a major deity who protected the pharaohs.^[1]

Akhenaten[edit]

Prisoners from the hypostyle hall of the Soleb temple

During the reign of Akhenaten, he initially is shown worshipping his father and Amen at the temple. But later, he re-dedicates the temple to Aten.^{[citation needed]}

[Aldebaran]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:42 AM, atalante said:

During the reign of Akhenaten, he initially is shown worshipping his father and Amen at the temple. But later, he re-dedicates the temple to Aten

Interesting.  I could not recall ever seeing Akhenaten worshipping Amen at all, even in his earliest days of what I believe to have been an eight-year coregency.  What seems certain is that Amenhotep III considered himself the human version of Ra-Horakhty and, in the tomb of Kheruef, Akhenaten worships that deity.  He is sans queen.  Only his mother, Tiye, is there with him.  Of course, Tiye was important to Kheruef, as he was her personal servant.  This tomb reinforces the idea that, while Akhenaten was still Amenhotep IV, it was Ra-Horakhty who was the chief deity and not yet the Aten.

On the plinth of a missing statue, found at Cairo, there is a dedication to "My Father Ra-Horakhty" probably made by Meritaten, whose statue had once stood there.  The names of Akhenaten are intact but that of Nefertiti have been erased.  Also, on the foot of the KV55 coffin, there is also an address to "My Father Ra-Horakhty" in an alteration to the text.  So--did Akhenaten, at some point, emulate his father and also wish to be viewed as the solar incarnation?  It seems strange because, by Year 9, Akhenaten had removed Ra-Horakhty from the Aten cartouches [indicating no more "Holy Trinity" of Ra, Shu and Tefnut once Amenhotep III was dead].  But Akhenaten had years left to view himself in whatever light he pleased.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/Y_EA1000

So, on this statue base, Akhenaten is addressed as "Ra-Horakhty in his name of Shu", just like in the old Aten cartouche.  But, by the time of his death, that form of the Aten names was long gone.

Edited February 8 by Aldebaran

[Antigonos]

Atalante and Aldebaran, interesting recent posts thanks.

[Wepwawet]

Returning to an old topic, and returning to the dissapointment of the no-show by Hawass on the DNA results of KV21B in November 2022.

Since then the topic has just dropped out of existance, however, despite the no-show, and no matter what the results could, or could not show, I am 100% convinced that in the KV35 boy we have a son of Akhenaten, if KV55 is he.

I'm going back over old ground here, but I'll point out again that what Hawass stated about KV21B is important, despite it being a dead end, at the moment. Hawass said that the boy's DNA was the key to showing if KV21B was Nefertiti. He comes to this conclusion because he does not believe KV35YL to be Nefertiti, therefore, if the boy was the son of KV55 and half brother of Tutankhamun, and KV21B was his mother, then she would be Nefertiti on the basis that by Hawass's reckoning the Younger Lady is not. It could of course be the case that the YL is Nefertiti and KV21B is a secondary wife of Akhenaten, probably not Kiya as KV21B into perhaps her mid forties would be too old, but not too old to be Nefertiti, given the error range in aging mummies older than about 18.

However, in what I propose, the identity of the YL and KV21B is not actually relevant, and is another argument. Despite any cynicism we may hold about Hawass, I do not believe he would have made the statement he did without already knowing the DNA results of the boy and the familial relationships they showed to other Amarna mummies. Therefore, for Hawass to state that the boy's DNA was the key, he must know that his DNA showed him to be a son of KV55 and half brother of Tutankhamun, and that KV35YL was not his mother. I can only presume that this information is not being released until the issue with the DNA of KV21B is resolved, if it can ever be, maybe they wait for better technology. At the end of the day it seems as clear as day to me that we have a brother of Tutankhamun who does not appear in the record, who himself is only referenced once before becoming king.

Without even going into who the KV35 boy may, or may not be, by name, and we may never know, surely this upsets various calculations made by many Egyptologists and interested others, yet there's a deathly silence, or even hostility about him, and that's curious.

[Antigonos]

@Wistman

I have a question regarding the “Before” part of your post.

Have there been any recent theories or new developments concerning Yuya’s ancestry? As I understand it the general consensus is that he was native Upper Egyptian, but there’s some possibility that he may have been Mitannian. The latter doesn’t seem to rely on anything concrete, but the circumstantial evidence involved is certainly interesting. I only ask because I can’t find anything recent myself and I thought you might have access to more sources on the topic than I currently do.

I find Theodore Davis’ monograph on the discovery of the tomb of Yuya and Thuya fascinating. 
 

One of my favorite pictures from the excavations in the VoK which I’m sure you have seen. Maspero has it as the frontispiece to one of his books.

 

Edited February 28 by Antigonos

[Wistman]

7 hours ago, Antigonos said:

@Wistman

I have a question regarding the “Before” part of your post.

Have there been any recent theories or new developments concerning Yuya’s ancestry? As I understand it the general consensus is that he was native Upper Egyptian, but there’s some possibility that he may have been Mitannian. The latter doesn’t seem to rely on anything concrete, but the circumstantial evidence involved is certainly interesting. I only ask because I can’t find anything recent myself and I thought you might have access to more sources on the topic than I currently do.

I find Theodore Davis’ monograph on the discovery of the tomb of Yuya and Thuya fascinating. 
 

One of my favorite pictures from the excavations in the VoK which I’m sure you have seen. Maspero has it as the frontispiece to one of his books.

 

fu

We have discussed Yuya on this thread, quite a ways back. Somewhere around the mid-point of D18 the noble Akhmin clan worked its way into the Thutmosid court, gradually into positions of power, and gained ascendancy (in an administrative and probably military sense) by the time of Thutmose IV.  Yuya, then head of the Akhmin nobles, was the prime administrator and head of the armies at Amenhotep III's court, maybe served as regent during AIII's minority.  Thuya his wife was also a highborn from Akhmin.  They married their daughter into the Royal family, Tiye, and were treated with the highest regard, even being buried magnificently in the VotK.  The influence of the Akhmin nobility reached its peak during the kingship of Ay, who was one of them, perhaps a son of Yuya.  Then it was over for them, Horemheb resented Ay's kingship (Horemheb was actually the declared heir of Tutankhamun) and went about destroying all their presence in the monuments (only those post-AIII, thankfully). 

This is fulsome but somewhat speculative, and yet possible.  Maybe a bit more than you were asking?  😄  As far as anybody knows right now Yuya's ancestors hailed from Akhmin, therefore fully Egyptian.

Edited February 28 by Wistman

[Kenemet]

12 hours ago, Antigonos said:

@Wistman

I have a question regarding the “Before” part of your post.

Have there been any recent theories or new developments concerning Yuya’s ancestry? As I understand it the general consensus is that he was native Upper Egyptian, but there’s some possibility that he may have been Mitannian. The latter doesn’t seem to rely on anything concrete, but the circumstantial evidence involved is certainly interesting. I only ask because I can’t find anything recent myself and I thought you might have access to more sources on the topic than I currently do.

I find Theodore Davis’ monograph on the discovery of the tomb of Yuya and Thuya fascinating. 
 

One of my favorite pictures from the excavations in the VoK which I’m sure you have seen. Maspero has it as the frontispiece to one of his books.

 

Love that photo.  Gives a real sense of scale.

[Kenemet]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:19 PM, Wepwawet said:

It could of course be the case that the YL is Nefertiti and KV21B is a secondary wife of Akhenaten, probably not Kiya as KV21B into perhaps her mid forties would be too old, but not too old to be Nefertiti, given the error range in aging mummies older than about 18.

Something that Kara Cooney (I think) suggested was that Nefertiti was much younger than Akhenaten.  

[Wepwawet]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Something that Kara Cooney (I think) suggested was that Nefertiti was much younger than Akhenaten.  

I think the best we can do is say that Nefertiti was probably no younger than about 32 at death. This is not based on estimates on the ages of KV35YL or KV21B, but on what we know of her from the record, plus a guess. She first appears, with Meritaten, on the Hwt-bnbn probably in Akhenaten's year 2. She isn't present at the start of the reign, at least in any record, so for the sake of argument let's say she appears by the end of year 1 and Meritaten is born by the end of year 2. She is then queen consort at least into year 16, then becomes co-ruler by the end of year 17. She then rules alone, though technically Tutankhamun should be sole monarch, for about two years, gve or take X number of months. The guess I take is that she was only around 14 when she married Akhenaten sometime during his year 1. So what I do is 14+16+2 = 32. There is an argument that states that on the Hwt-bnbn Meritaten is no less than five years old already, part of the evidence being that a baby would not be depicted as using a sistrum while officiating with her mother. For myself I don't think that was a consideration as in year 12 both Setepenre and Neferneferure are depicted the same size as their older sisters, Meritaten being about 11 by then, while they were still infants, in fact Setepenre may have been less than a year old by year 12. And it is around  such minutiae that thunder and lightning rages.

[Wepwawet]

11 hours ago, Wistman said:

  As far as anybody knows right now Yuya's ancestors hailed from Akhmin, therefore fully Egyptian.

What would be an idea, though it will not happen, if for one of his teeth to be removed and an oxygen isotope analysis conducted, which would once and for all identify at least where he was born and bred, and I'm sure it was Egypt. The same could be done on KV35YL, and much easier due to the state of her face, which would answer the question of where she was born and bred. Otherwise Yuya's K haplogroup simply puts his ancestry into the "near east", and therefore no different to the majority of the ancient Egyptian population who have haplogroups placing their deeper ancestors into an arc stretching from the Levant to western Europe, such as with Amunhotep III. Though with Yuya there is still the question of his odd name, a family tradition from ancestors who did come from outside Egypt X generations ago? or, an AE version of the modern trend to invent names, such as "Skylar" and other hippy trippy concoctions.

[Antigonos]

14 hours ago, Wistman said:

We have discussed Yuya on this thread, quite a ways back. Somewhere around the mid-point of D18 the noble Akhmin clan worked its way into the Thutmosid court, gradually into positions of power, and gained ascendancy (in an administrative and probably military sense) by the time of Thutmose IV.  Yuya, then head of the Akhmin nobles, was the prime administrator and head of the armies at Amenhotep III's court, maybe served as regent during AIII's minority.  Thuya his wife was also a highborn from Akhmin.  They married their daughter into the Royal family, Tiye, and were treated with the highest regard, even being buried magnificently in the VotK.  The influence of the Akhmin nobility reached its peak during the kingship of Ay, who was one of them, perhaps a son of Yuya.  Then it was over for them, Horemheb resented Ay's kingship (Horemheb was actually the declared heir of Tutankhamun) and went about destroying all their presence in the monuments (only those post-AIII, thankfully). 

This is fulsome but somewhat speculative, and yet possible.  Maybe a bit more than you were asking?  😄  As far as anybody knows right now Yuya's ancestors hailed from Akhmin, therefore fully Egyptian.

A very informative response, thank you, I appreciate it. No not at all, as far as I’m concerned the more information the better. 

[Aldebaran]

Where Yuya lived or even where he was born does not necessarily give proof of his ethnicity.  First, his name has no meaning in the Egyptian language and, therefore, must be either a nickname or a foreign name.  It was written so variously on objects in his tomb and that indicates no one was sure how to spell it, whereas most Egyptian nicknames were common and consistently spelled.

DNA testing published in 2010 seems to point to Yuya having been a relative of Amenhotep III--but how is unclear.  He could not have been a full brother of the mother of Amenhotep III because the men do not have the same mitochondrial haplogroup.  At one time I put the 8-marker DNA of Yuya into a popaffiliator program.  The program looks at your autosomal DNA for ethnicity--or rather what population it matches.  Since the program required 9 markers, at least, I gave Yuya, by default, the highest number at the 9th marker borne by modern Egyptians from DNA testing.  He still came out as having the highest probability for sub-Saharan African with nearly equal possibility for  Eurasian or Asian.  If I hadn't put in the Egyptian number, I wonder what the result would have been.  The results aren't a ratio.  The PopAffiliator program does not give percentages of ancestry. It gives you, in percentage, the probability of your having ancestry each of the 3 major population groups..You can see what I did best here and, if you click on the program prediction photos, they will enlarge,

https://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/search?q=Predicted

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Aldebaran

[Aldebaran]

And, yes, Mitanni would have been considered Eurasia.  It would have encompassed what is now Northern Syria, Eastern Turkey and can have extended all the way to Armenia.

 

Edited March 2 by Aldebaran

[Antigonos]

2 hours ago, Aldebaran said:

Where Yuya lived or even where he was born does not necessarily give proof of his ethnicity.  First, his name has no meaning in the Egyptian language and, therefore, must be either a nickname or a foreign name.  It was written so variously on objects in his tomb and that indicates no one was sure how to spell it, whereas most Egyptian nicknames were common and consistently spelled.

DNA testing published in 2010 seems to point to Yuya having been a relative of Amenhotep III--but how is unclear.  He could not have been a full brother of the mother of Amenhotep III because the men do not have the same mitochondrial haplogroup.  At one time I put the 8-marker DNA of Yuya into a popaffiliator program.  The program looks at your autosomal DNA for ethnicity--or rather what population it matches.  Since the program required 9 markers, at least, I gave Yuya, by default, the highest number at the 9th marker borne by modern Egyptians from DNA testing.  He still came out as having the highest probability for sub-Saharan African with nearly equal possibility for  Eurasian or Asian.  If I hadn't put in the Egyptian number, I wonder what the result would have been.  The results aren't a ratio.  The PopAffiliator program does not give percentages of ancestry. It gives you, in percentage, the probability of your having ancestry each of the 3 major population groups..You can see what I did best here and, if you click on the program prediction photos, they will enlarge,

https://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/search?q=Predicted

 

 

 

Thank you for the information. 

[atalante]

A religious cult from Egypt's Old Kingdom was evidently revived in the Amarna era.  This Old Kingdom religious movement had been started by 5th Dynasty king Menkauhor Kaiu, close to the time when the god Osiris (and other major Egyptian gods) are first attested in archaeology).  

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menkauhor_Kaiu

 

The figure of Menkauhor was at the centre of a long lasting funerary cult [beginning in the 5th Dynasty, and continuing] until the end of the Old Kingdom period, with at least seven agricultural domains producing goods for the necessary offerings. The cult of a deified Menkauhor, then known by the titles "Strong Lord of the Two Lands, Menkauhor the Justified" reappeared during the New Kingdom period (c. 1550 – c. 1077 BC), and lasted until at least the Nineteenth Dynasty (c. 1292 – c. 1077 BC), some 1200 years after his death.

 

.... Following a tradition which started with Userkaf, the founder of the Fifth Dynasty, Menkauhor built a temple to the sun god Ra. He was the last pharaoh to do so.^[63] His successors, Djedkare Isesi and Unas, abandoned^[64][65] this practice as the cult of Ra declined^[66] at the expense of that of Osiris.^[65

 

 

.... Menkauhor Kaiu built a pyramid in North-Saqqara, thereby abandoning the royal necropolis of Abusir, where kings of the Fifth Dynasty had been buried since the reign of Sahure, some 80 years earlier.^[77] The reason for this choice may be that the Abusir plateau had become overcrowded by the beginning of Menkauhor's reign.^[78]

 

.... After his death Menkauhor enjoyed a funerary cult centered on his pyramid complex. The cult lasted at least until the second half of the Sixth Dynasty, nearly 150 years later. Provisions for this cult were produced in dedicated agricultural domains that were established during Menkauhor's lifetime.^[63] Products of these domains were delivered to Menkauhor's sun and mortuary temples and distributed to the priests of the cult, who could use them for their sustenance or their own funerary cults.^[63] Personified representations of Menkauhor's agricultural domains are depicted bringing offerings on the walls of the mastabas of these priests. Most of the depictions are located in Saqqara North,^[54] near the pyramid complex of Djoser.^[63] This area comprises the tombs of Neferiretptah,^[90] Raemankh, Duare, Iti, Sekhemnefer, Snofrunefer, Akhethotep, Ptahhotep and Qednes,^[63] all priests of the funerary cult of Menkauhor. Further tombs of priests of this cult are found to the north, in Abusir South, with the mastaba of Isesiseneb and Rahotep^[91] and in Giza.^[63]

The complete names of at least seven domains of Menkauhor are known:^[92]

 

..... The cult of Menkauhor enjoyed a revival during the New Kingdom period (1550–1077 BC).^[98][99] At this point Menkauhor had been deified as a local god of the Saqqara necropolis acting as a divine intercessor,^[100] and qualified of "Strong Lord of the Two Lands, Menkauhor the Justified".^{[note 22][101]} This cult is evidenced by reliefs showing Menkauhor in the tombs of the "Chief of the artisans and jewelers" Ameneminet and of the physician Thuthu in Saqqara-North, both of whom lived at the time of the late Eighteenth Dynasty (1550–1292 BC),^[102] during the reigns of Tutankhamun, Ay and Horemheb.^[103]

An inscribed block dating to the later Ramesside period (1292–1077 BC) and now in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin,^{[note 23]} was uncovered by Lepsius in a house in Abusir^[104] and shows Menkauhor enthroned beside four other deified kings of the Old Kingdom: the name of the first, partially lost, but probably Sneferu is then followed by Djedefre, Menkaure, Menkauhor and finally Neferkare. The owner of the tomb stands before the kings, in worship.^[105] Another relief dating to the same period shows a similar scene. It was inscribed on the lintel of the tomb chapel of Mahy buried in Saqqara North. Four deified kings of the Old Kingdom are shown, all of whom built their pyramids at Saqqara: Djoser, Teti, Userkaf and Menkauhor.^[104]

[Wepwawet]

11 hours ago, atalante said:

A religious cult from Egypt's Old Kingdom was evidently revived in the Amarna era

The question being why was the cult revived, when and by whom. Akhenaten is the final expression of this cult, but, as has been noted by very many authors over the years, but perhaps not clearly enough, is that Akhenaten did not emerge from a vacuum. I think we have to look at Thutmose I as the originator due to him building a temple at the Great Sphinx aligned with Heliopolis. There are a lot of questions, but no answers, it's not even known just who Thutmose I was, maybe a relative of Amunhotep I, and likely I would have thought, but with no records to tell us, and no mummy as TT320-CCG61065 has been shown not to be Thutmose I as he is not related at all by blood to any of the later Thutmosids who have been tested, not enough though IMO.

Then apart from building temples at the Sphinx, whom was it that really cleared the enclosure, at least initially. I would have thought Thutmose I, whose temple is just to one side of the enclosure and Sphinx Temple, indicating he knew it was there. Likewise a few generations on when Amunhotep II built his temple abutting the enclosure. Even if between Thutmose I and Amunhotep II the enclosure had filled with sand, would not Amunhotep II have cleared it before building his temple. This then leads to Thutmose IV stating that he cleared the enclosure, or did he, and I've discussed in earlier posts why his statement may be part of a convention where a new king, in order to show that he is the "new broom" and better than the preceeding king, proclaims that when he became king the land was in "disorder". Akhenaten, when still Amunhotep IV made a statement at Karnak declaring that he took over a kingdom in disorder, but it's just propaganda.

So the question is what led Thutmose I to revive a cult, or at least to make the first movements to a revival, that culminated in Akhenaten, who kept objects, at least one, belonging to Khafre.

[Wepwawet]

Further on Thutmose I. He is the first of the 18th Dynasty kings to have the "kheper" element in his throne name. Why he chose a throne name which describes a manifestation/s of Ra when no king before him had done so, and why he was followed in this by most of the 18th Dynasty kings after him, could I think, if not just a tradition blindly followed, possible of course, be a clue as to why Ra rose to prominence, in sort of an under the surface way as outwardly Amun was "King of the gods", and all praise was for Amun, even on solar symbols such as obelisks, vide those of Hatshepsut.

What I wonder is just exactly what this kheper element to their throne name meant to the king. In the first instance I guess it should be taken at face value and it refers directly to Ra, it is just about Ra, for example, the throne name of Thutmose I is Aakheperkare, Great is the Manifestation of the Soul of Ra. At face value this is Thutmose proclaming exactly what the name says and that it just refers to Ra. I think that should be the default position, it is the most straightforward. However, if we are with Thutmose I at the start of a journey that leads to Akhenaten, could, not with Thutmose I himself, perhaps, be looking at an increasing desire of kings to see themselves as a manifestation of Ra. They are of course all "sons of Ra", but are they going a step further, not proclaiming themselves to be Ra, not even Akhenaten does that, but as a manifestation of some sort.

Tutankhamun seems to indicate that the name may be referring to the king himself as well as Ra. Tutankamun as Tutankhaten is already the "living image of the Aten", and unusual name, not so much for the Aten referrence, but for the "tut", and I believe that while "tut" as a part of a persons name is not unique, it is for a king and also being the image of a god. This name Tutankhaten by itself seems to me to be a step beyond normal conventions and elevates him, I suggest, above the normal position of a mortal. Then when he becomes king and takes the throne name Nebkheperure he becomes the living image of a god and the lord of manifestations of a part of this god, and I'm putting it simply to avoid rambling on about the various parts that make up the Sungod.

So, does the kheper element of the throne name of the majority of 18th Dynasty kings indicate a growing belief, not publicly expressed, that they were not just a son of Ra, but a manifestation of Ra, and that it is this suggested belief that leads to Akhenaten. There are caveats, it's just an idea for a start, and some kings, Amunhotep III prominently, do not have the kheper element in their throne name, though he does make himself Ra-Horakhty, so no lack of ambition to actually become at least one part of the Sungod.

Edited March 4 by Wepwawet