The Harm Done By Religion

[Doug1066]

I have written a series of short essays on how religion harms society.  I plan to post one a day and give people a chance to comment.

This is not a god exists/god doesn't exist thread.  We have had a number of those on UM and gone nowhere with them.  This thread is about religion, not god(s).  One does not have to believe in god to have a bad experience with those who do.  Some of these are from my own experience.  Some are from historical accounts.  And some are borrowed from atheist writings.  I present them because they need to be heard.

I will have a lot to say about how the organized churches looked the other way while the Nazis burned Europe.  I will have a lot to say about how the church never does the right thing when it can do the remunerative thing.

To begin this thread I start with an incident from my own experience:

[Doug1066]

On the north end of Boulder, Colorado back in the early 1990s was a “gentleman’s club” known as the Bustop.  It was owned by an elderly gentleman whose health was failing and could no longer run it.  He put it up for sale and after several months on the market, a young man offered to buy it.  But he couldn’t get a bank to lend him the money.  The old man suggested an owner-financed sale.  In return for a set monthly installment, he would deed the club to the young man, keeping a lien on it until it was paid off.

Things went along well for a couple years, but the old man’s health was still declining so he had a will made up, leaving everything, including the mortgage to the club, to the Presbyterian Church.  When the old man died, the church inherited the mortgage on the strip club.

But business was not what it should be.  The young man could not make a go of the club, so he underwent voluntary foreclosure and gave it to the church.  The church thought of closing down the club and selling the property, but their real estate agent advised them that an operating business would bring a much greater price than an empty building.  Thus, the Presbyterian Church became the operator of a strip club.

After a few months of selling out their ideals, they found another buyer and could once again adopt their holier-than-thou attitude.

I have never known a religious institution that couldn’t sell out the Lord for the right price.

[+Grim Reaper 6]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

On the north end of Boulder, Colorado back in the early 1990s was a “gentleman’s club” known as the Bustop.  It was owned by an elderly gentleman whose health was failing and could no longer run it.  He put it up for sale and after several months on the market, a young man offered to buy it.  But he couldn’t get a bank to lend him the money.  The old man suggested an owner-financed sale.  In return for a set monthly installment, he would deed the club to the young man, keeping a lien on it until it was paid off.

Things went along well for a couple years, but the old man’s health was still declining so he had a will made up, leaving everything, including the mortgage to the club, to the Presbyterian Church.  When the old man died, the church inherited the mortgage on the strip club.

But business was not what it should be.  The young man could not make a go of the club, so he underwent voluntary foreclosure and gave it to the church.  The church thought of closing down the club and selling the property, but their real estate agent advised them that an operating business would bring a much greater price than an empty building.  Thus, the Presbyterian Church became the operator of a strip club.

After a few months of selling out their ideals, they found another buyer and could once again adopt their holier-than-thou attitude.

I have never known a religious institution that couldn’t sell out the Lord for the right price.

Well you obviously know nothing about the Buddhist faith, Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion in any sense of the word. There are no omnipotent deities, Buddha was just a man who was born and died like all other men, and he performed no miracles. In Buddhist each of us must take individual responsibility for all we do, how we live, and how we treat our fellow men.

My point being is that the actions of any Buddhist individual can not sell out the Philosophy!

Namaste my friend!

[+Desertrat56]

This reminds me of a joke my dad told me (he was biased against Baptists because of some bad experiences he had with Baptist ministers.   He was an elder for a Presbyterian church at the time he told me this joke).

He said "What is the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist?"  

I said "What?"

He answered "The Methodist can read."

I said, "oh, I know the rest of this joke.   What is the difference between a Methodist and a Presbyterian?"

He got mad but said "What?"

My answer was "The Presbyterian has a bank account."

I grew up in both churches because my mother's family was Southern Baptist.

Anyone who chooses to get offended by that awful joke, enjoy it.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

I have never known a religious institution that couldn’t sell out the Lord for the right price.

Have you known many of them in any deeper, personal way?  FWIW, I agree with your statement about religions.  All man made institutions have the taint of human nature attached.  Hypocrisy is rampant and even the most faithful will stumble, sometimes often.  Just as I wouldn't think of blaming all atheists with the sins of the few, I think those who use the excuse found in calling out hypocritical people who profess faith as an indictment of ALL people who believe, to be baseless and somewhat self-serving.  That is an observation, not an accusation BTW.

No doubt there has been great evil done by human beings in the name of the god they profess to worship.  Christ regularly pilloried them.  I find it instructive these days to note that by FAR, the greatest anger, derision, and violence in the world is aimed at a single religion.  It happens to be the main religion that actually PUTS LOVE INTO ACTION by helping the needy, feeding the starving around the world, reaching out to the forgotten in prisons, and trying to make peace where there is none.  None of that makes Christians perfect because NOTHING will ever make human beings perfect.  We ALL give in to our baser natures and harm others in the process.  

Fortunately, faith can be found and spread outside such religious institutions.

[XenoFish]

Religion is some else's spirituality. Someone who's probably long dead. So those who follow such ideas are basically imitating the beliefs of another. Many ideologies are not fit for an every changing world. 

[SHaYap]

Haven't really gone round to giving this a good read into, but it should be a nice companion reference into the delving... 

Quote

For the millions of people who want spirituality without religion, Sam Harris's new book is a guide to meditation as a rational spiritual practice informed by neuroscience and psychology.

 

From bestselling author, neuroscientist, and "new atheist" Sam Harris, Waking Up is for the increasingly large numbers of people who follow no religion, but who suspect that Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Rumi, and the other saints and sages of history could not have all been epileptics, schizophrenics, or frauds. Throughout the book, Harris argues that there are important truths to be found in the experiences of such contemplatives-and, therefore, that there is more to understanding reality than science and secular culture generally allow.

...

[00.08:54]

~

 

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well you obviously know nothing about the Buddhist faith, Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion in any sense of the word. There are no omnipotent deities, Buddha was just a man who was born and died like all other men, and he performed no miracles. In Buddhist each of us must take individual responsibility for all we do, how we live, and how we treat our fellow men.

My point being is that the actions of any Buddhist individual can not sell out the Philosophy!

Namaste my friend!

There are at least two philosophies that don't really fit under the term "religion."  Buddhism, as you say, and Quakers.

Doug

[+Grim Reaper 6]

7 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

There are at least two philosophies that don't really fit under the term "religion."  Buddhism, as you say, and Quakers.

Doug

Buddhism is certainly the largest, but I can't comment on the Quakers because I know little to nothing about them.

Peace. 

[+joc]

There are two sides to every story.

There is harm done by religion.

There is good done by religion.

To single out one side only because of one's prejudicial attitude is no different than any other argument about anything else.

And...

In fact...Religion is no different than Politics.

Both are belief systems that involve a believer and those who are skeptical of said beliefs.  They are the same because if someone begins talking down another's faith...there will be confrontational issues developing.  Same with Politics.  I would say that Religion and Politics are so close in fact...they are inseparable.  Both born out of the same Pod.  The need for control and the need for money from the controlled.

The belief that they are right and everyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

What a world we live in.

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, and then said:

It happens to be the main religion that actually PUTS LOVE INTO ACTION by helping the needy, feeding the starving around the world, reaching out to the forgotten in prisons, and trying to make peace where there is none. 

We have a long way to go with this thread.  I will demonstrate some of what Christianity has to live down.  It is going to take an awful lot of love, helping  the needy, feeding the starving, reaching out to the forgotten, trying to make peace, building majestic cathedrals and singing of Bach masses to offset what the church has done in just the 20th century, not to mention the 2000 years before that.

Thanks for your comments.  Stay tuned.

Doug

P.S.:  I was baptized Lutheran, raised Methodist and Presbyterian and finally wound up an agnostic Quaker.  It was studying the Bible that introduced the agnostic part.  Along the way I briefly attended a synagogue, a Catholic church, an Anglican church and a sweat lodge (Run by a shaman/ordained Methodist minister.).

Doug

Edited September 3, 2021 by Doug1066

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Many ideologies are not fit for an every changing world. 

That's a paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson.  He didn't have much use for organized religion, either.  He called the Bible "a dung hill," and said it was not fit for children.  I agree with that last one.

Doug

[Silver]

3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

On the north end of Boulder, Colorado back in the early 1990s was a “gentleman’s club” known as the Bustop.  It was owned by an elderly gentleman whose health was failing and could no longer run it.  He put it up for sale and after several months on the market, a young man offered to buy it.  But he couldn’t get a bank to lend him the money.  The old man suggested an owner-financed sale.  In return for a set monthly installment, he would deed the club to the young man, keeping a lien on it until it was paid off.

Things went along well for a couple years, but the old man’s health was still declining so he had a will made up, leaving everything, including the mortgage to the club, to the Presbyterian Church.  When the old man died, the church inherited the mortgage on the strip club.

But business was not what it should be.  The young man could not make a go of the club, so he underwent voluntary foreclosure and gave it to the church.  The church thought of closing down the club and selling the property, but their real estate agent advised them that an operating business would bring a much greater price than an empty building.  Thus, the Presbyterian Church became the operator of a strip club.

After a few months of selling out their ideals, they found another buyer and could once again adopt their holier-than-thou attitude.

I have never known a religious institution that couldn’t sell out the Lord for the right price.

The Lord helps those that help themselves.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

That's a paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson.  He didn't have much use for organized religion, either.  He called the Bible "a dung hill," and said it was not fit for children.  I agree with that last one.

Doug

I didn't know Jefferson stated such a thing. Forget it. No point in going further.

[Doug1066]

19 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Buddhism is certainly the largest, but I can't comment on the Quakers because I know little to nothing about them.

Peace. 

Then let me.  Quakers are split into two branches:  "pasteurized" and "homogenized."  The pasteurized ones have preachers, referred to as "hireling priests."  The pastoral groups are evangelical and do a lot of Bible thumping.

The "homogenized" groups have no pastors (everybody is expected to do a share of the Lord's work) and hold silent meetings.  The silence is broken only when someone feels moved by the spirit to speak.  Some meetings are "popcorn" meetings where people give messages frequently.  I was once a member of a truly silent meeting that had only two messages in an entire year.

Both groups claim to follow the original message of George Fox (sort of a Quaker prophet) who did not believe in priests, but was very evangelical.

Pasteurized Friends (The name comes being "Friends of God/Jesus.") are politically conservative, while "Homogenized" Friends are politically liberal.

That's as far as I better go or I'll be here all night.

Doug

[Doug1066]

5 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

The Lord helps those that help themselves.

I sure guess so.

Doug

[Doug1066]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I didn't know Jefferson stated such a thing. Forget it. No point in going further.

Read up on his life - he even wrote his own Bible - leaving out the parts he didn't agree with.  Google:  Jefferson Bible.

Doug

[Mr Walker]

Scientific/ medical studies show that faith and religion have positive outcomes for about 84% of humans who believe 

About 10% seem to be unaffected, while about 5%  have negative outcomes 

Thus, statistically, religion is better for humans than non religion. 

Of course all and any beliefs when the y come into conflict with other beliefs can cause conflict and harm.

 This includes  tribalism, nationalism, environmentalism,  racism, sexism, etc. 

[Doug1066]

30 minutes ago, joc said:

There is harm done by religion.

See Post 11.  More to come.

 

30 minutes ago, joc said:

In fact...Religion is no different than Politics.

That is certainly so in that both believe in "things unseen," accepting something as true without evidence.

 

32 minutes ago, joc said:

To single out one side only because of one's prejudicial attitude is no different than any other argument about anything else.

As you follow this thread, I think you'll figure out where I actually stand on most issues.  So far, you haven't done it.  Peace.

Doug

 

[Phantom309]

When it comes to contributions to society, there's only one sane answer to that question....

[Doug1066]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Scientific/ medical studies show that faith and religion have positive outcomes for about 84% of humans who believe 

Religion has perpetrated some truly horrendous acts, as I will show in later posts.  It has a huge amount to live down.

Doug

[Doug1066]

I chose the story of the Bustop to start on a humorous note.  When we get into the church's contributions to the Third Reich, I think you'll see my point.

You're going to hear from that same Presbyterian church at least once more.

Doug

[Mr Walker]

2 minutes ago, Phantom309 said:

When it comes to contributions to society, there's only one sane answer to that question....

An interesting juxtaposition  but with inherent assumptions

Eg which, if either of thetwo women is happier, more fulfilled,  more free, or   healthier? 

    Is the role of wife and mother inferior to, or less significant to society, than the role of an astronaut ?

In the end it comes down to informed choice.

As long as a woman (or anyone ) can make a free and informed choice then the y have the right to live in any way they wish.

  Many westerners are trapped in a paradigm of seeking fulfilment through work,  money, and material possessions,  and yet fail to be happy and fulfilled. 

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country

[psyche101]

5 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Religion has perpetrated some truly horrendous acts, as I will show in later posts.  It has a huge amount to live down.

Doug

Ive read that religion has held science back, perhaps as much as a thousand years. I'm not sure what is accurate, there are quite a few estimates. 

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Religion has perpetrated some truly horrendous acts, as I will show in later posts.  It has a huge amount to live down.

Doug

People do that in the name of relgion.

They do the same thing in the name of nationalism  racism sexism etc.

It also depends on your values 

was western colonialism (underwritten by religion) a bad thing or a good one?  

Religions have unified and protected people as much as the y have divided them.