The Harm Done By Religion

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Thank you and all the best too..

It is a coping method, and it is a drug too.

One becomes high on life no matter the outward circumstances and issues that arise. One is stable, at peace, able to move without too much drama and grief.

And this from a lowly aspirant, goodness knows what blessing are actually there for the taking if one actually becomes serious in ones practice!

I get it, I maintain a yoga and meditation practice, attend MBSMT ( Mindfulness based Stress Management therapy ) I eat clean, maintain a normal weight, exercise, get plenty of sleep, stay hydrated and keep my home space a peaceful sanctuary. I share in a incredibly loving and supportive partnership with my hubby and enjoy wonderful relationships with my sons and do work that is fulfilling to me etc. etc. This is my coping strategy. 
 

I am glad you found a way that serves you. Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your candor. 

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

In the later gospels? The students are saints and Jesus is some kind of god

Oh fig me... 

Quote

“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. “I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.’”

...

https://www.olivetree.com › blog › j...

Why Did Jesus Curse the Fig Tree?

 

SCRIPTURE: MARK 11:20-25 ... In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus,

~

 

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Beliefs are important in the sense that they may take one to the Gates of Heaven.

But if that one wishes to abide, and explore THAT, to know, experience, and harmoniously unite with GOD, then all beliefs, ideas, reality tunnels, notions, and even thoughts thenselves must be dropped, along with the ego, gradually being replaced with unconditional love.

Then there is nothing to understand, just BE.

The good news being that anyone may know this for oneself, if open enough, and inspired enough, to give it a go.

I think Xeno brings in a good point that one operates within a reality tunnel it can be beneficial or not depending. I don’t think your reality construct would serve anyone else though. 
An FYI, this is not a criticism, but everyone finds a way to cope but it isn’t necessarily always healthy and that is a point to keep in mind. This is our add too. For Ex: One might gorge on sweets to manage stress, one might abuse drugs to escape reality, one might believe nonsense instead of be proactive and so on and so on. 
 It is more the application of a path then anything else. 

To me, “Gates of heaven” is really a metaphor you apply to share how your god construct ( beliefs) are working for you. It seems the “gates of heaven” for you is getting a break, having a space you can just get a reprieve. 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Desertrat56]

I have a recent personal example of how religion does harm.  My brother belongs to a church that is two blocks from his house, 3 from mine.   Our neighbor has known my brother since high school.  He and I chat over the fence sometimes.   He married recently (less than a year) and his wife belongs to the same church, but the gossip in that church is bad and the minister does not like my neighbor.  He had to go to California a couple of weeks ago and was gone a week, when he came back, his wife had packed her things and left with no word of why.  Just vanished.   He knows it is because the minister and his wife and others in that church (not my brother) poisoned her mind towards him.  She must not be a very strong minded person in my opinion.  They had known each other for years before they got married and another incident had happened that caused her to shun him for a while.   Anyway, that is not really religion, it is religion used as a club to make people submit.   The problem the minister had with my neighbor is that he thought the guy had convinced his wife to change churches, which was her idea because of all the stress of them belittling him in front of her when they attended.   The minister lost her tithes and was upset.   Somehow someone convinced her to go back to that church and when they did the minister always made his sermon about "people who go to mega churches because of..."   They essentially are what I call a satan worship church because they spend more time yelling about satan than thanking their god.    

The second thing is my neighbor asked why my name was on the non-believers prayer list.   I suspected it might be because my brother has said thing to me about my lack of belief in his religion.  He has no clue and has never asked me about my beliefs, just assumes.  And once he even said he though I would burn in hell.   He is my little brother and I love him very much but he is so disrespectful I can't have a real relationship with him.   The incident where he said that I was going to burn in hell, he was in a very bad state of mind, he was the one with the problem, not me.   I have problems, I am human but I don't go around beating people with a bible when I am upset (with someone else - he was lashing out at me because he wasn't getting along with his wife - VERY DISHONEST).

Anyway, finding out that the whole church is praying fo my soul is quite disturbing to me and has just widened the chasm between me and my brother.  And it isn't even just that, our cousin goes to that church and she and I are on good terms.   She asked me a while back about my beliefs and now I understand why.   She quit going to that church not long after and she understands because her sister does the same thing to her.

Bad religion (devil worship disguised as worship of some god) splits families.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Desertrat56

[tortugabob]

It's been going on a long time.   “Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum - To such heights of evil are men driven by religion.” - Lucretius

[+Liquid Gardens]

7 hours ago, larryp said:

Because Jesus did, and he taught his followers to do the same. The Pharisees and the Sadducees had different religious believes, and YHWH's son constantly rebuked them, to the point of costing him his life.  John 18: 3-5

I thought Jesus taught his followers to act more like adults and just 'shake the dust off your feet' when faced with people who didn't believe him.  Consistency didn't seem to be his strong point...

[+Desertrat56]

23 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I thought Jesus taught his followers to act more like adults and just 'shake the dust off your feet' when faced with people who didn't believe him.  Consistency didn't seem to be his strong point...

It probably wasn't Jesus' consistency that was the problem, more the inconsistency of the stories told about him are the problem.

[+Desertrat56]

I just talked to my cousin and she said she quit that church long ago because they get angry at what she calls "bluntness", which is actually her saying things like "wait, what about.." which they feel is pointing out their flaws.

[larryp]

40 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I thought Jesus taught . . . just 'shake the dust off your feet' when faced with people who didn't believe him. 

He taught both.

Edited November 5, 2021 by larryp
the details!

[eight bits]

50 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I thought Jesus taught his followers to act more like adults and just 'shake the dust off your feet' when faced with people who didn't believe him.  Consistency didn't seem to be his strong point...

Well, that saying (Mark 6:11) may be a good illustration of @Desertrat56's point.

I think it read originally

Whoever will not receive you nor hear you, as you depart from there, shake off the dust that is under your feet for a testimony against them.

~ Just acknowledge and move on to the next town.

But there are some manuscripts (and so you can find some modern Bibles) that continue the verse to conclude

Assuredly, I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

That changes the meaning of the first part, from "win some, lose some" to:

"Let me save you."

"Save me from what?"

"What I'm going to do to you if you don't let me save you."

Threats and bullying are harm.

Quote

He taught both.

That's too bad, then.

Edited November 5, 2021 by eight bits

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I have a recent personal example of how religion does harm.  My brother belongs to a church that is two blocks from his house, 3 from mine.   Our neighbor has known my brother since high school.  He and I chat over the fence sometimes.   He married recently (less than a year) and his wife belongs to the same church, but the gossip in that church is bad and the minister does not like my neighbor.  He had to go to California a couple of weeks ago and was gone a week, when he came back, his wife had packed her things and left with no word of why.  Just vanished.   He knows it is because the minister and his wife and others in that church (not my brother) poisoned her mind towards him.  She must not be a very strong minded person in my opinion.  They had known each other for years before they got married and another incident had happened that caused her to shun him for a while.   Anyway, that is not really religion, it is religion used as a club to make people submit.   The problem the minister had with my neighbor is that he thought the guy had convinced his wife to change churches, which was her idea because of all the stress of them belittling him in front of her when they attended.   The minister lost her tithes and was upset.   Somehow someone convinced her to go back to that church and when they did the minister always made his sermon about "people who go to mega churches because of..."   They essentially are what I call a satan worship church because they spend more time yelling about satan than thanking their god.    

The second thing is my neighbor asked why my name was on the non-believers prayer list.   I suspected it might be because my brother has said thing to me about my lack of belief in his religion.  He has no clue and has never asked me about my beliefs, just assumes.  And once he even said he though I would burn in hell.   He is my little brother and I love him very much but he is so disrespectful I can't have a real relationship with him.   The incident where he said that I was going to burn in hell, he was in a very bad state of mind, he was the one with the problem, not me.   I have problems, I am human but I don't go around beating people with a bible when I am upset (with someone else - he was lashing out at me because he wasn't getting along with his wife - VERY DISHONEST).

Anyway, finding out that the whole church is praying fo my soul is quite disturbing to me and has just widened the chasm between me and my brother.  And it isn't even just that, our cousin goes to that church and she and I are on good terms.   She asked me a while back about my beliefs and now I understand why.   She quit going to that church not long after and she understands because her sister does the same thing to her.

Bad religion (devil worship disguised as worship of some god) splits families.

I am sorry you are dealing with this Dee, and it is really good to talk about it. I too, experienced this type of division when my mom was alive. In her ignorance, and I say this with compassion she put the church over her children. That she would not set boundaries with them is on her and a reflection of her own ability to be exploited and in turn she exploited back, it cost her a deep relationship with me. It was always her script to let me know how horrible I was for choosing a path other than hers. While I was always civil and respectful to her, we missed out on a quality relationship. She is dead now and in retrospect it is so sad she didn’t have the courage or sense to tell her church to p*** off.
 

I get that not every church is like this, but for those that are and the ones that attend them or follow the teachings, go along in perpetrating the division are just as much a part of the issue as the church. Any time that any path is claiming it is the only way or else is a red flag. 

No one should ever have to choose between a church and a family member that is insanity, yet, this is what goes on, still.

 

I am sorry about your brother, I hope he wakes up cuz he is missing out on a awesome sister. 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sherapy

[larryp]

On 11/1/2021 at 2:57 PM, Desertrat56 said:

 ". . .so I am not going to attack anyone.  

Jesus attacked the Scribes and the Pharisees: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.  Mathew 2313

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I am sorry you are dealing with this Dee, and it is really good to talk about it. I too, experienced this type of division when my mom was alive. In her ignorance, and I say this with compassion she put the church over her children. That she would not set boundaries with them is on her and a reflection of her own ability to be exploited and in turn she exploited back, it cost her a deep relationship with me. It was always her script to let me know how horrible I was for choosing a path other than hers. While I was always civil and respectful to her, we missed out on a quality relationship. She is dead now and in retrospect it is so sad she didn’t have the courage or sense to tell her church to p*** off, cuz she missed out on her own growth. 
 

I get that not every church is like this, but for those that are and the ones that attend them or follow the teachings, go along in perpetrating the division are just as much a part of the issue as the church. Any time that any path is claiming it is the only way or else is a red flag. 

No one should ever have to choose between a church and a family member that is insanity, yet, this is what goes on, still.

 

I am sorry about your brother, I hope he wakes up cuz he is missing out on a awesome sister. 

 

There has been a pattern in my mother's family like this.   2 of my cousins joined The end timer's cult.  Their mother wanted to but her husband refused and in that cult the woman has no say over her husband (thank goodness, because she had cancer and got the treatment she needed, but would not have in that cult).   2 sisters refused to have anything to do with their older sister, who is married to a minister.   20+ years later the cult has fallen apart and the surviving sister is trying to reintegrate into society, which includes interacting with family.   She is having a hard time, but it is getting better for her.  The other sister died of untreated cancer.

[+Desertrat56]

2 minutes ago, larryp said:

Jesus attacked the Scribes and the Pharisees: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.  Mathew 2313

Right, but what have you done?  Repeating scripture is one thing, actually going out into the world to practice what you believe is another.  Have you had any cognitive dissonance when you are interacting with people face to face?   I would be interested because that is how I left religion, the cognitive dissonance was too loud for me to ignore.   Blessings to you, though.  In this day and age you have chosen a rough road.

[larryp]

On 11/1/2021 at 2:26 PM, Sherapy said:

You know you have an amazing sense of humor. It is an intelligence all its own. 

. . .  really?  LOL

Edited November 5, 2021 by larryp

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

There has been a pattern in my mother's family like this.   2 of my cousins joined The end timer's cult.  Their mother wanted to but her husband refused and in that cult the woman has no say over her husband (thank goodness, because she had cancer and got the treatment she needed, but would not have in that cult).   2 sisters refused to have anything to do with their older sister, who is married to a minister.   20+ years later the cult has fallen apart and the surviving sister is trying to reintegrate into society, which includes interacting with family.   She is having a hard time, but it is getting better for her.  The other sister died of untreated cancer.

Why did they join in the first place, not as an admonishment, but a genuine question? 
 

I am glad the one sister is doing better. 

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Why did they join in the first place, not as an admonishment, but a genuine question? 
 

I am glad the one sister is doing better. 

It is strange.  The younger of the 3 cousins in-laws joined and her husband told her if she didn't join she would have to say goodby to the kids.  So she packed up and went with him and his parents to Florida.   She sent tapes of the sermons to my aunt, who always had an issue beating herself up for not being good enough to get in to heaven [southern baptist raised], and my aunt liked what she heard.  She and her husband went to visit once and all they heard about was how great everything was, but in reality my cousin's husband was forced to earn a living as a salesman.  He was an engineer, and things didn't go well, but somehow that was his fault.   Anyway, my uncle saw what was really going on and refused to join when they were asked.   My aunt already had cancer and was in her 3rd remission at that time.    Then the middle sister left her husband (we'll never know why) and went to visit her sister in Florida.  Someone convinced her to stay so she came back, told her mother and everyone.   Wrote some letters and moved there.  Within a few months they had married her to some rich guy with 5 kids who had lost his wife to cancer (the wife's fault, of course).   After 15 years my cousin died of the same cancer, which is caused by a sexually transmitted virus.  (but it was her fault).  In the meantime the oldest sister went to visit and was turned away because she told them "I came to visit my siters, not your church".  I am still stymied about why the middle sister joined, except perhaps she did not want her little sister to be alone.  I used to tell myself that, but it turns out she had very little to do with her sister or family because they were poor and she was married to a rich man.   She had a degree and had been working as a computer programmer before she joined that cult and she was not really good with kids.   Then there she is raising 5 of someone else's kids.

[larryp]

19 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

  Blessings to you, though.  In this day and age you have chosen a rough road.

Jesus had a rough road to follow, too, then the Jews killed him. I know our message is unpopular, but so was Jesus'

However, to all the nations, we must tell.  And this good news of the Kingdom will be published in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matter 24:14

Edited November 5, 2021 by larryp

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, larryp said:

Jesus had a rough road to follow, too, then the Jews killed him. I know our message is unpopular, but so was Jesus'

However, to all the nations, we must tell.  And this good news of the Kingdom will be published in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matter 24:14

And that is why your message is so unpopular.   Is your belief about being the best you can be or is it about converting as many people as you can?

[+Hammerclaw]

Matthew 7:

¹⁵ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

²¹ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Assuredly, I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Yea that definitely provides a different flavor from a more stoic Jesus spreading his word to those who will accept it and hoping the best regardless for those who don't.  I try to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt and try to picture it as a warning more than a threat but since he's the son of god/is god then as you noted it gets convoluted as he's warning them about what he's going to be responsible for.  Like many things in the whole religion (to me), this works a lot better if Jesus is just a man, viewing it as a warning makes much more sense from that perspective. 

In a way I'd have to both credit and admonish modern Christians compared to Jesus on this point.  Based on my entirely scientific and soundly representative data sample of 'Christians I've encountered', I've seen plenty of examples where believers will say something like the above in a twistedly gleeful way, the most popular I've seen are related to fantasies about someone being judged by Jesus after death and the enjoyment/comfort the believer gets when they 'get what's coming to them'.  Pretty gross, and even if it is a genuine caring warning it usually doesn't come across as one, it usually comes across as something psychologically for the believer's benefit.  On the other hand though I've had some too where someone will come up to me while I'm on my way somewhere else and want to say or give me something about Jesus and I just brush them off, probably inadvertently rudely sometimes, and they just smile and say 'God bless you' and move on.  No 'vengeful warnings' added, to me that's the 'Christ-like' way to do it regardless of whether Jesus can always clear that bar.  It's still ultimately all about the fruits they're to be known by, scripture and the rest is just cornucopia design.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, larryp said:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in

Ha, so more examples of just shaking the dust off and moving on.  I forget, what's 'hypocrisy' mean again?

[Crazy Horse]

20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sherapy honestly doesn't believe in all that "woo stuff"   You know; that people are meant to be happy, content, confident, healthy in mind and body, and empowered  with meaning and purpose  tomake a difference  

She seems to think that  the best a human can do is learn to cope with (what she sees as)  the inevitable pain and suffering life brings. 

woo rainbow is a sort of catch all for what we might once have called Pollyannas ie people who see the best in all things  and value the spiritual at least as much as the material. 

(unless of course she is talking about the actress of that name  or the  rapper woo- ri from  the band Rainbow) .   

The thing is, anybody may know the truth.

And thanks for the explanation Mr W, and Sheri was right, I am all about the woo-rainbow..woo woo.

[Crazy Horse]

9 hours ago, joc said:

Maybe the wrong word...

I cant spell even with spell check.

My bad lol..

[Crazy Horse]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That once again is a matter of opinion. It is your coping system. It isn't for everyone. 

Its far from mere opinion my friend.