The Harm Done By Religion

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

That was responding to @Manwon Lender's

 and that was back on November 1st. The full quote, offered in reply to @Abramelin

Manwon can correct me, but taken as a whole, he seems to have been stating his own personal view of the matter, and not making some global pronouncement about the current state of intellectual history. Abramelin had offered a reservation about a historical Jesus, that's what Manwon was responding to.

There is quite a bit of doubt in the world about whether Jesus, in the sense of the person whom Paul wrote about in his letters, was a real person who actually lived. That includes professional scholars, but ordinary people, too

https://talkingjesus.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Talking-Jesus-dig-deeper.pdf

(see page 11, results of a 2015 poll of a representative sample of English adults, "22% think he’s a fictional character.")

There is more urgent doubt, even if we were sure that Jesus was a real person, whether we can know anything about what Jesus really said and did. Paul displayed little interest in Jesus's earthly career. For example, Paul explains Christian baptism in Romans (6:3-4) without mentioning that Jesus was baptized - something which one might think would have some relevance to the Christian meaning of baptism. (John the Baptist is never mentioned in any of the extant letters of Paul).

The gospels, canonical or otherwise, are not historical documents, and were seen as unreliable sources even in ancient times. Christians mistrusted one another's gospels, and the few non-Chirstian critics whose work survives mistrusted the four that are now canonical.

And that's it for potential primary sources for Jesus's words or deeds. We don't know, and cannot know what he said and did, if anything. The words attributed to him include much wisdom, but their content can also be found in other ancient literature including the Jewish Bible and ancient Jewish scripture that wasn't included in the Jewish canon. The Jewish literature, in turn, includes wisdom distilled from the surrounding cultures.

Bottom line: The New Testament is well worth reading, as are other ancient Christian writings, but useless to find reliable factual information about a historical Jesus, starting with whether there really ever was an earthly Jesus.

If somebody has a personal conviction that there was such a man, then that's fine with me. It is a fact, bowever, that there are reasonable people who have doubts, or even personal conviction that there was no such person. I didn't interpret Manwon as saying otherwise.

Wow, thank you very much for including me in this conversation I really appreciate it. You are correct I was responding to Abramelin, and also like you said he was expressing his reservations about the existence of the Biblical Jesus. So I offered my opinion on the subject, but it also wasn't only an opinion, it's what I call an educated opinion. I use that term when i have done some research on a subject and I am unable to find enough verifiable information that will convince me that the subject matter is sufficient to conclude that yes this was real person or no he wasn't real.

In the case of Jesus, its very difficult to ascertain that he was a living human being and not a representation of a fictitious historical character. Thus is because Like I previously stated and the historical facts of that time period do bear me out, that Jesus was a common name used in that area of the Middle East. Because of this proving his true existence is even more difficult, because there are two opposing groups who study this subject, even though for the most these groups are trying to ascertain the same thing which is was Jesus real or not also. 

Now what really throws a Monkey wrench into the gear box are historical items that consist of, tombs, grave goods. and the other occasion items that will be discovered with markings that reference someone named Jesus or that actually have the name Jesus marked upon them. Now to someone who is a devout Christian historian it is easy to form a biased opinion concerning these items if they are unable to maintain their professional sensibility and stay dedicated to the real task at hand which is to determine the validity of the items.

But while archeological discoveries may not be able to be completely be attributed to the Biblical Jesus, they do however support the fact that at one time there was a historical figure who claimed he was sent by the All Mighty to except and die for the sins of mankind. Now here is where I stand on this issue personally, simply put I believe that a historical figure named Jesus did exist during the approximately time frame that covers the birth of Jesus and finally his ultimate Crucifixion. However I don't believe he was the son of God, that he actually performed miracles, of that once Crucified that he later was able to rise from death. 

The reason I can except that a man called Jesus did exist is because of the historical documentation that exists that is Hebrew, .Islamic and Christian. What I am referring to is the Islamic literature that exalts Mary and proclaims Jesus was a Penultimate Prophet of Allah. To me since the three largest Organized Religions in the Middle East, speak of Jesus in a  role in their religious scriptures along with his Mother Mary for me there is not much doubt that the person Christians reference as the as the son of God was a real man who actually walked the Earth. When you look at the different roles Jesus played in the different scriptures I suspect he was a teacher or a prophet and that he had the ability to captivate crowds and spread his personal message.

But again I Believe that was the extent of his abilities which were regulated to a non-Devine nature, but that his ability to Speak and the message he presented was excepted again not because of his divine nature, but because of the time period when he appeared upon the scene ( during the occupation by the Roman Empire ). During this time the Jewish people wanted the Romans gone from their land and anyone who stood against them in any manner was excepted. 

Peace my friend. 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

The comment still stands. All of your god ranting is just your opinion. 

When it rains and you get wet, is that only an opinion?

Is my experience of GOD an opinion only?

Do mere opinions count for an altered state of consciousness?

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

When it rains and you get wet, is that only an opinion?

Is my experience of GOD an opinion only?

Do mere opinions count for an altered state of consciousness?

A cool rain on a hot day or snow on a very cold one. One's thoughts and feelings regarding the rain are their own opinion.

Your experience is your experience based upon your belief, but that experience is yours alone and your opinion of that experience is well, just an opinion.

All of us fluctuate into different levels of conscious awareness throughout the day. What we take from that and our experience of these state is just an anedote, an opinion. We may like a particulate state of mind, might not. Regardless of what we individually feel it is nothing more than an opinion. 

What you don't seen to get is that we subjectively experience objective reality. Formulation ideas and yes opinions on our experiences, creating association and cultivating ideas that seem right. Though they may not be so. What you think of as true, might not be. And what works for you, might not work for others. You do not know for 100% certain that your experiences are authentic, to your perception of them it is so. Same for the things you wish to associate with God or whatever spiritual "reality" you occupy. 

However as I've mentioned several times already. That is your reality tunnel. And your realty isn't everyone else's. 

Religions are just models from which people can observe the world around them. A lens of sorts. To see the world from a similar lens as someone who might have lived and died 2000 years ago. Yet, that view isn't perfect. Nothing is. 

A pure and true view of things simply doesn't exist, only what might work for someone. 

Don't worry I know you'll disregard all of this. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

The one True Bob...

"Disease of conceit"

[00.03:46]

~

 

Yes Sir, great post!

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

When it rains and you get wet, is that only an opinion?

Is my experience of GOD an opinion only?

Do mere opinions count for an altered state of consciousness?

1. No you don't really get wet it's all an illusion and your a free electron traveling through cyber space and you hear a burp behind you and as you turn toward that sound you shudder from the sight you are witnessing?

[lightly]

It's interesting how big of change the New Testament is..?  "Behold ,I stand at the door and knock"    It's a unification of God and man... A big ,and apparently fairly succesful, Public Relations and promotions effort?   Talk of peace and love and forgiveness would be refreshing compared to the strictness of the Old Testament ?     I'm no bible scholar ,,and some would say that the New Testament is more fulfillment than change.  But it seems like quite an upgrade. You just don't put new wine in old bottles.? 

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:33 PM, eight bits said:

Credit where credit's due: you have actually observed something correctly. Mark's Jesus defintiely is a dick from time to time.

What makes Mark such good literature, though, is that his Jesus learns from these mistakes.

The students' muddled dickitude is pretty much on themselves in Mark. Jesus tries to point them toward a better attitude with parables and so forth, but they are a slow lot.

In the later gospels? The students are saints and Jesus is some kind of god

The Harm done by Religion - This baby will never go near water again!!!!!!!

 

Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On 11/5/2021 at 6:18 PM, Sherapy said:

I don’t begrudge anyone a coping system. I hope things get better for you. All the best.

 

[lightly]

That is one ugly baby !    Is it human? !      

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

When it rains and you get wet, is that only an opinion?

Is my experience of GOD an opinion only?

Do mere opinions count for an altered state of consciousness?

Yes, your experience of your god construct is your opinion. Period. No one disputes that it is possible to apply a god construct as a tool to cope effectively or Ineffectively, both outcomes are possible. But, beyond this your experience is an opinion, nothing more. 
 

Use great care in claiming an altered state of consciousness, at best it is little more than maintaining a balance in our nervous systems namely maintaining a homeostasis between sympathetic dominance (SD) and parasympathetic dominance (PD). For example: having a predominately stressful life in medicine is labeled as sympathetic dominance (SD), or operating in survival mode. Think of a balloon as every stressor piles up more air goes into the balloon, how much air before the balloon pops?  Or before you start to show symptoms of too much stress beyond your capacity to cope? Hallucinations and delusions are symptoms of stress too.  
 

The objective is to find healthy ways to cope so one can release some of the air (stress) to maintain a PD.  Not trying to convince themselves or others that their delusions are hallucinations are actuality. 

 

Enter a coping system, maybe one goes fro a run everyday or one comes home and drinks alcohol, or practices yoga (moving meditation)or maybe does nothing and has a heart attack or experiences other cortisol related health concerns. Remember an altered state of consciousness includes hallucinations and delusions, biases, sleep, daydreaming etc. etc. Meditation medically is a tool to access ones natural ability to restore parasympathetic dominance in other words induce a calm relaxed state. Just deep breathing techniques or a 15 minute run will do this very effectively. 
 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Sherapy

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, lightly said:

That is one ugly baby !    Is it human? !      

 I don't know, but one thing is for certain, I bet two things will happen first after that experience the child will be afraid of water for the rest of his life. Second I suspect that if child remains a Christian he will not remain a Catholic, and the word Baptism will always scare the hell out him!

Peace

Edited November 6, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[+joc]

Then again...he may become an Olympics swimming gold medalist.

The truth is...that baby will not remember any of that.

[Grim Reaper 6]

52 minutes ago, joc said:

Then again...he may become an Olympics swimming gold medalist.

The truth is...that baby will not remember any of that.

Well we only hope so, however, the subconscious mind can store events and they can return at any point in our lives. This information can come back in the form of a reoccurring dream or like in this case a Nightmare, only time will tell!!

But one thing is for certain Joc!!!!!

 

Peace bro!!!!!

Edited November 6, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[+Sherapy]

25 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well we only hope so, however, the subconscious mind can store events and they can return at any point in our lives. This information can come back in the form of a reoccurring dream or like in this case a Nightmare, only time will tell!!

But one thing is for certain Joc!!!!!

 

Peace bro!!!!!

Thank you. In any current models of childhood development especially the first 5 years there is no educational system that would disagree that this is about the worst thing a person could do to an infant. That kind of jarring could harm the brain, of all the ways to baptize an infant that the parents allowed for this is hard to wrap my head around. In this it is best to err on the side of never doing this to an infant. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you. In any current models of childhood development especially the first 5 years there is no educational system that would disagree that this is about the worst thing a person could do to an infant. That kind of jarring could harm the brain, of all the ways to baptize an infant that the parents allowed for this is hard to wrap my head around. In this it is best to err on the side of never doing this to an infant. 

I am also very surprised that a Baptism was carried out that way, I mean it looks Medieval!! You know in my original post I expressed my surprise and my dismay, I think most of the people who responded thought that the baby wasn't real, and that it was meant as a joke. However to my knowledge that is a real event, but there is one thing that seems weird, if you look at his eyes they do look strange, almost like Black pools,  now I have no idea what caused that!

Oh and by the way how do you like my Jesus Gif, I think you will see more of him. With some of the religious questions people ask I think its easily to post laughing Jesus then to answer them!

Namaste!!!!!!

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 I don't know, but one thing is for certain, I bet two things will happen first after that experience the child will be afraid of water for the rest of his life. Second I suspect that if child remains a Christian he will not remain a Catholic, and the word Baptism will always scare the hell out him!

Peace

When my son was young I taught him to hold his breath buy blowing in his face and he automatically closed his nasal passages then I would dunk him under water for a couple of seconds, it didn't take long for him to learn how to hold his breath and he would hang onto my neck while I swam underwater and he loved it. but the he wasn't raised to be religiously conditioned either.

[Michelle]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

When my son was young I taught him to hold his breath buy blowing in his face and he automatically closed his nasal passages then I would dunk him under water for a couple of seconds, it didn't take long for him to learn how to hold his breath and he would hang onto my neck while I swam underwater and he loved it. but the he wasn't raised to be religiously conditioned either.

That's how professionals teach almost newborn babies how to swim.

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Michelle said:

That's how professionals teach almost newborn babies how to swim.

Hi Michelle

I am not a professional swimmer but did understand that the auto reaction to wind in the nose make one close them and worked from there.

[Grim Reaper 6]

16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

When my son was young I taught him to hold his breath buy blowing in his face and he automatically closed his nasal passages then I would dunk him under water for a couple of seconds, it didn't take long for him to learn how to hold his breath and he would hang onto my neck while I swam underwater and he loved it. but the he wasn't raised to be religiously conditioned either.

Yea that sounds like a great way to either teach a child not to be afraid of water or to help a child that already is get past that fear. But, the way that Orthodox Catholic Priest handled that poor child was like the Child was being Water Boarded, to me those actions were uncalled, unnecessary, ignorant, and completely asinine !!

Peace

Edited November 7, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Michelle]

Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Michelle

I am not a professional swimmer but did understand that the auto reaction to wind in the nose make one close them and worked from there.

Your instincts were right. They say it's easy to teach infants because they are used to being in the amniotic fluid. They start out with dunking them for a couple of seconds and then for longer periods.

My nephew was swimming like a fish by age one and we basically did the same thing.

[jmccr8]

Just now, Manwon Lender said:

Yea that sounds like a great way to either teach a child not to be afraid of water or to help a child that already is get past that fear. But, the way that Orthodox Catholic Priest handled that poor child was like the Child was being Water Boarded, to me those actions were uncalled for unnecessary!!

Peace

Hi Manwon

Thanks and yes we should find ways that work with children that does not traumatize them for latter in life. The priest was a clumsy oaf with that child and hopefully the child will have parents that will be able to teach that child how to overcome certain fears as that is our job.

[jmccr8]

Just now, Michelle said:

Your instincts were right. They say it's easy to teach infants because they are used to being in the amniotic fluid. They start out with dunking them for a couple of seconds and then for longer periods.

My nephew was swimming like a fish by age one and we basically did the same thing.

Hi Michelle 

I wouldn't be surprised that archaic humans did the same thing as children didn't live the same lives we now do.

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

Thanks and yes we should find ways that work with children that does not traumatize them for latter in life. The priest was a clumsy oaf with that child and hopefully the child will have parents that will be able to teach that child how to overcome certain fears as that is our job.

I totally agree with you, but Sherapy certainly said it best in post 888.

However, you did do an amazing thing, you got our friend below to smile and that's truly a feat, its also a little creepy!!!

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Grim Reaper 6]

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you. In any current models of childhood development especially the first 5 years there is no educational system that would disagree that this is about the worst thing a person could do to an infant. That kind of jarring could harm the brain, of all the ways to baptize an infant that the parents allowed for this is hard to wrap my head around. In this it is best to err on the side of never doing this to an infant. 

The Harm Done By Religion! These people should not be allowed to have children, it pretty obvious that they are not mentally stable enough!!

Horrific moment: US pastor is bitten by a deadly snake during a service leaving him drenched in blood:  THIS is the horror moment a snake bit - and almost killed- a controversial American pastor who was performing a bizarre service with the reptile in Kentucky. Drenched in his own blood, Cody Coots had to be carried out of the Full Gospel Tabernacle church, one of the few in the country which still allows snake-handling. Cody's father Jamie, 42, was killed when a rattlesnake bit him in a similar ritual back in 2014 but that does not put him off performing the same death-defying service.

Jamie Coots, 42 years old died on 17/02/2014  , bitten by Rattlesnake in Church! 

National Geographic Channel Presents Special Highlighting Pastor Jamie Coots Of Snake Salvation:National Geographic Channel Presents Special Highlighting Pastor Jamie Coots Of Snake Salvation (prnewswire.com) 

Pastor Cody Coots: The death of Cody's father thrust him into the pastor's role at the age of just 23, making him the fourth generation to take up the snake-handling vocation. The second photo below shows Cody Coots shortly after he was bitten by Rattlesnake, like father like son, Cody Coots also died from a Rattlesnake bite !!

 

 

 

The Video below shows him after and before he was bitten!!!!!

 These are really some crazy Crazy people

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

Thanks and yes we should find ways that work with children that does not traumatize them for latter in life. The priest was a clumsy oaf with that child and hopefully the child will have parents that will be able to teach that child how to overcome certain fears as that is our job.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[jmccr8]

17 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

The Harm Done By Religion! These people should not be allowed to have children, it pretty obvious that they are not mentally stable enough!!

Horrific moment: US pastor is bitten by a deadly snake during a service leaving him drenched in blood:  THIS is the horror moment a snake bit - and almost killed- a controversial American pastor who was performing a bizarre service with the reptile in Kentucky. Drenched in his own blood, Cody Coots had to be carried out of the Full Gospel Tabernacle church, one of the few in the country which still allows snake-handling. Cody's father Jamie, 42, was killed when a rattlesnake bit him in a similar ritual back in 2014 but that does not put him off performing the same death-defying service.

Jamie Coots, 42 years old died on 17/02/2014  , bitten by Rattlesnake in Church! 

National Geographic Channel Presents Special Highlighting Pastor Jamie Coots Of Snake Salvation:National Geographic Channel Presents Special Highlighting Pastor Jamie Coots Of Snake Salvation (prnewswire.com) 

Pastor Cody Coots: The death of Cody's father thrust him into the pastor's role at the age of just 23, making him the fourth generation to take up the snake-handling vocation. The second photo below shows Cody Coots shortly after he was bitten by Rattlesnake, like father like son, Cody Coots also died from a Rattlesnake bite !!

 

 

 

The Video below shows him after and before he was bitten!!!!!

 These are really some crazy Crazy people

 

Hi Manwon

Yes there are crazy people  but from my experience in life there is not much I can judge about others given my life experience. I was an alter boy and was never abused by my priest so I have no story to tell, not that I think others are valid and still came to the conclusion the god was what we are thinking beings diverse in beliefs as we are that somehow make up for all the fruitcakes out there. I do not judge someone from where they come from but do make my judgements baasesed on how they deal with others. 

To be honest I have had a couple of shots of rum and am having a cap locks problrm and will try for he next few hours not say much

[eight bits]

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

When my son was young I taught him to hold his breath buy blowing in his face and he automatically closed his nasal passages then I would dunk him under water for a couple of seconds, it didn't take long for him to learn how to hold his breath and he would hang onto my neck while I swam underwater and he loved it. but the he wasn't raised to be religiously conditioned either.

That's an interesting report. Not just that it wasn't religious, but that you prepared your son for the experience, and then there was the tangible and long-term pay-off (the two of you could do something cool that rewarded his having learned this skill).

Is blowing in a person's face to close their nasal passages a "thing"? I blow in the face of cows and horses for the opposite effect. I think it's a safe way for them to learn about me, and also mimics what seems to be a social "ritual" among themselves. In any case, they seem to like it. I can't recall ever trying it with people (and with COVID still on the loose, I'd probaby be arrested these days).