The Harm Done By Religion

[+joc]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

In other words they doped up enough to form a habit which became a compulsion. Got it. 

Your condesceding ignorance  amazes me. Smh

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

Your condesceding ignorance  amazes me. Smh

I don't care what you think Joc. People get into habits, bad habits. They do whatever stupid thing that gives them a positive neurochemical hit. Eventually they depend on it, it thus becomes an addiction. A compulsive habit. If you don't like that idea, take it up with someone who cares. 

[+joc]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't care what you think Joc. People get into habits, bad habits. They do whatever stupid thing that gives them a positive neurochemical hit. Eventually they depend on it, it thus becomes an addiction. A compulsive habit. If you don't like that idea, take it up with someone who cares. 

You obviously know nothing about what you're talkin about when it comes to addiction. So I will take it up with someone else who perhaps does.  

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, joc said:

You obviously know nothing about what you're talkin about when it comes to addiction. So I will take it up with someone else who perhaps does.  

Yeah, good luck with that. 

[Will Due]

 

Falling victim in becoming trapped being an addict of physical poisons is one thing but being addicted to the poisons of the mind is probably much worse. 

The mental poisons that is, of fear, anger, envy, jealousy, suspicion, and intolerance.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Will Due

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, joc said:

Addictions are not habits. People who are addicted to heroin  do not  have a habit of doing  heroin...nor do alcoholics have a habit of drinking alcohol.  Their body's are addicted to the substance

There are psychological addictions and physical addictions. Cocaine for example is a psychological addiction. Heroin and alcohol are physical addictions as well as psychological addictions. They are not habits.

Putting faith in someone or something more powerful than yourself is a good thing. 

All I am saying is that while their is a dark side to religion there is also a good side.  Religion helps millions of people cope with all kinds of problems.

You are not wrong, Joc. I have learned a lot from the Neurologist I work for, who is also an addictions  specialist and this can include food too she said that some people have a variant of the addiction gene that causes almost an immediate addiction, and it is a b**** to overcome and deal with. That you found a way to manage and overcome your addiction is commendable. The brain literally wires to the addiction, some addictions are also far worse than others, too. In the really hard cases, intense exercise is recommended at first as it releases endorphins and dopamine to help one push thru the withdrawals. I do get that for some AA would turn them off due to several factors, but it also has been wonderful for others. 
 

I commend you and Lightly on your journeys to sobriety.  I lost a sister to a heroin addiction, she could not get off the drug, it took her at 25. Nothing worked for her.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

The most that person could tell me is that belief helped them, as if I were evaluating the lottery as an investment by interviewing a jackpot winner.

AA is a funny example of religion, too. The "higher power" can be anything. It can even be no thing that actually exists.

The AA movement treasures a letter from Carl Jung to Bill Wilson, a founder of the movement.

http://silkworth.info/aahistory/carljung_billw013061.html

(There is also a link at the bottom to what purports to be a transcript of Wilson's letter to which Jung was replying.)

In Jungspeak, that "wholeness" is the goal of human existence, the harmonious integration of the elements of the self, conscious and unconsious. Jung associated that goal state, and intuitions of what it would be like to achieve that state, with the "image of God." So in this conception the "higher power" is not anything that is, but rather something, a self, that could be.

That is all very abstract, but there are Christians who see Jesus as the concrete, flesh and blood example of the ideal human (and therefore the ideal self which was realized in an actual person), and Buddhists who see Gautama as the ideal human, ...  and so for many people, that is what their religion entails.

We also know, however, that there's more to Christianity or Buddhism, or whatever than that in practice. I think some of the practice is what Doug has in mind when he writes about the harm done by religion.

As the proverb says, it's an ill wind that blows no good. Religion is not all bad for everybody. Faint praise, though, eh?

Great post. Sometimes, in my line of work Religion is all a person is open to. In some cases, the way it is applied can be beneficial. I have seen it help in high stress situations in the sense of turning oneself over to something greater than themselves, because one doesn’t have the confidence in their capacity to cope, especially in a novel situation or a whole host of reasons it truly depends on the person and the situation. Needing a bit of help to overcome a tough situation is one thing making something a crutch is another and at some point it becomes about looking deeper. Just my 2 cents. 
 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Sherapy

[+joc]

28 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You are not wrong, Joc. I have learned a lot from the Neurologist I work for, who is also an addictions  specialist and this can include food too she said that some people have a variant of the addiction gene that causes almost an immediate addiction, and it is a b**** to overcome and deal with. That you found a way to manage and overcome your addiction is commendable. The brain literally wires to the addiction, some addictions are also far worse than others, too. In the really hard cases, intense exercise is recommended at first as it releases endorphins and dopamine to help one push thru the withdrawals. I do get that for some AA would turn them off due to several factors, but it also has been wonderful for others. 
 

I commend you and Lightly on your journeys to sobriety.  I lost a sister to a heroin addiction, she could not get off the drug, it took her at 25. Nothing worked for her.

Thanks Sherapy.  I am not an addict though.  And I know I am not wrong.   

[+joc]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah, good luck with that. 

Thanks.  I have good luck with most things.  Good luck with your cabin.  Good luck with your personality disorder as well.    

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Thanks.  I have good luck with most things.  Good luck with your cabin.  Good luck with your personality disorder as well.    

 

Good luck with covid maybe it won't kill you. Maybe it will. 

[+joc]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Good luck with covid maybe it won't kill you. Maybe it will. 

I don't have covid.   If I get it and it kills me...then I will be very, very silent....

[+Sherapy]

12 minutes ago, joc said:

Thanks Sherapy.  I am not an addict though.  And I know I am not wrong.   

Indeed, there is a differences between an addiction and an addict. 

[+Hammerclaw]

The worst addiction I have encountered, here and elsewhere, is people who are addicted to their own BS.

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

The worst addiction I have encountered, here and elsewhere, is people who are addicted to their own BS.

I think that one might be true to varying degrees in all of our cases. 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Sherapy said:

I think that one might be true to varying degrees in all of our cases. 

 

 

Guilty as charged. I have my BS Anonymous medallion to prove it.

[+Sherapy]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Guilty as charged. I have my BS Anonymous medallion to prove it.

Ha ha ha ha ha, we can’t sell the BS we don’t ascribe too, ourselves.

 

Wait for it, In the words of Xeno, we all have our own reality tunnel…

Edited September 28, 2021 by Sherapy

[+joc]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Indeed, there is a differences between an addiction and an addict. 

I guess for some, there is a bit of a semantic misunderstanding  with the words.  Actually I did overcome an addiction once.  I divorced it.   And like you, I lost a loved one to heroin addiction.  My nephew was 45.  It isn't a habit.  It isn't a compulsion.  It is an addiction.  The real difference is in the persons complex individual chemistry.   Some people have 'addictive personalities' and more susceptible to addiction from abuse than others.  

I am sorry for your loss Sherapy.   I'm glad that most people have never had to experience that kind of pain.  It's like, if a person has never been in the military, there is nothing I can say to explain what being in the military is like.  And if one has not ever lived with an addict or lost a loved one to addiction then it is difficult as well to even get close to attempting to explain.  

[+Sherapy]

19 minutes ago, joc said:

I guess for some, there is a bit of a semantic misunderstanding  with the words.  Actually I did overcome an addiction once.  I divorced it.   And like you, I lost a loved one to heroin addiction.  My nephew was 45.  It isn't a habit.  It isn't a compulsion.  It is an addiction.  The real difference is in the persons complex individual chemistry.   Some people have 'addictive personalities' and more susceptible to addiction from abuse than others.  

I am sorry for your loss Sherapy.   I'm glad that most people have never had to experience that kind of pain.  It's like, if a person has never been in the military, there is nothing I can say to explain what being in the military is like.  And if one has not ever lived with an addict or lost a loved one to addiction then it is difficult as well to even get close to attempting to explain.  

Thank you for the empathy. Her loss has affected my whole life, my greatest fear was my own children getting the addiction gene.  So far, nada. I am saddened by the loss of your nephew. My nephew came close to deaths door due to heroin, but he sobered up in jail sentence and has been sober and doing well for 7 years now. Fingers crossed. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Ha ha ha ha ha, we can’t sell the BS we don’t ascribe too, ourselves.

 

Wait for it, In the words, of Xeno we all have our own reality tunnel…

Some have a reality cavern, or white hole constantly spewing forth.

[+Hammerclaw]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

I don't have covid.   If I get it and it kills me...then I will be very, very silent....

I really wish you'd get the shot. Oh, I know you won't and you can't be shamed into it. It's just seeing so many dying each day from the disease I'd hate to lose you. Despite past differences I'd miss you and even if non fatal, I still wouldn't want to see you suffer, needlessly.  Just sayin'; sentimentality is part of getting old, I suppose.

[+Hammerclaw]

Everyone is addicted to something, even if it's just the sound of their own lips flapping. People who disavow religion always replace IT with something else.

[+joc]

26 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I really wish you'd get the shot. Oh, I know you won't and you can't be shamed into it. It's just seeing so many dying each day from the disease I'd hate to lose you. Despite past differences I'd miss you and even if non fatal, I still wouldn't want to see you suffer, needlessly.  Just sayin'; sentimentality is part of getting old, I suppose.

Hmmmm....

When I first read that i missed the word the in the first sentence...  I'll take it for what I think it was...you being nice to me...

...and now ladies and gentleman...focus your attention to the center ring where the amazing Hammerclaw will pull off an amazing feat...one time and one time only....step right this way....

 

[+Hammerclaw]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

Hmmmm....

When I first read that i missed the word the in the first sentence...  I'll take it for what I think it was...you being nice to me...

...and now ladies and gentleman...focus your attention to the center ring where the amazing Hammerclaw will pull off an amazing feat...one time and one time only....step right this way....

 

I'm always nice to you; I'm just an A-hole about it, sometimes. When we were kids and did something stupidly dangerous and survived, Dad would yell at us and punish us. That was his way of blowing off steam after being scared, sh tless for us. Dad could be awkwardly tender, sometimes, but being yelled at really let us know he cared. The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.....

Edited September 28, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[SHaYap]

Right, now that's all out of the way, are we ready to get addicted to life yet? 

Sign on the dotted line --->

[...........................................]

~

[Mr Walker]

21 hours ago, eight bits said:

The most that person could tell me is that belief helped them, as if I were evaluating the lottery as an investment by interviewing a jackpot winner.

AA is a funny example of religion, too. The "higher power" can be anything. It can even be no thing that actually exists.

The AA movement treasures a letter from Carl Jung to Bill Wilson, a founder of the movement.

http://silkworth.info/aahistory/carljung_billw013061.html

(There is also a link at the bottom to what purports to be a transcript of Wilson's letter to which Jung was replying.)

In Jungspeak, that "wholeness" is the goal of human existence, the harmonious integration of the elements of the self, conscious and unconsious. Jung associated that goal state, and intuitions of what it would be like to achieve that state, with the "image of God." So in this conception the "higher power" is not anything that is, but rather something, a self, that could be.

That is all very abstract, but there are Christians who see Jesus as the concrete, flesh and blood example of the ideal human (and therefore the ideal self which was realized in an actual person), and Buddhists who see Gautama as the ideal human, ...  and so for many people, that is what their religion entails.

We also know, however, that there's more to Christianity or Buddhism, or whatever than that in practice. I think some of the practice is what Doug has in mind when he writes about the harm done by religion.

As the proverb says, it's an ill wind that blows no good. Religion is not all bad for everybody. Faint praise, though, eh?

Religion is good for almost every person either because of the spiritual element to  it, or because of the physical benefits which practicing a religion brings 

it s now almost certain  that religious belief is a default position of human cognition, like logical thinking, due to  evolutionary process.

For reasons which are becoming increasingly understood, belief and religious practice both  promote survival, and thus breeding, and have become 
" genetically" embedded  in human  cognition  so that  belief (in something beyond the material)   is   almost universal in modern humans 

But you are correct in your first point.

it is the BELIEF and faith which works, and so, in AA , it can be belief or faith in ANY powerful god or entity.

   This empowers people and allows them to transcend their own individual limits,   to give up alcohol (or other habits ) and to become "new men", empowered and strengthened  by their belief

If you can construct an image of yourself as "god like"  and develop faith in the  power or strength of that new you,  then yes, that would work also.

 However, it is easier for most humans to accept an external "god'  power, than to achieve,  accept, and make use of,   their own.  

People with addictions tend to struggle with self  esteem, self  empowerment, and self  belief,  also.