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The Harm Done By Religion


Doug1066
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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

This is a review of other studies.  It does not, in-and-of itself demonstrate anything.  It is more of a literature review.  It doesn't even mention randomized design or give any information about how research subjects were chosen.  There can be considerable bias in unrandomized designs.  It does refer to quite a number of other studies.  If there is any evidence of a positive effect of religion/spirituality, it must be in those other studies.

43 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

This is not a peer-reviewed paper.  It does not describe any test or experiment.  It says that people who live in "blue zones (faith-based communities)" live longer than people not part of a faith-based community, but presents no data or reasoning process to support that conclusion.  It suggests a number of reasons why people might live longer, such as, better diets, regular exercise, moderate alcohol consumption, good spiritual, family and social networks, but makes no effort to determine which combination might be responsible,  The paper is not a research paper and spends most of its space talking about a "zone diet."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/?sh=79dfbb583a12

This is an article in Forbes.  It is not peer-reviewed.  A genuine research article would normally have 20 to 30 citations and some have upwards of 150.  This has none.  The author provides a link so a reader can check out her other articles. They are a collection of how-to-improve-your-life artcies and do not mention spirituality or religion.  Most of the space is taken up by an article on intelligent machines.

 

OK.  You don't have any research articles and I won't ask for any.  It might be a good idea to start another thread on this topic

Doug

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57 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Australia 

Oklahoma is said to be where the football belt meets the Bible belt.  I guess in Australia you have something similar.\

Doug

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22 hours ago, Phantom309 said:

Doug, thanks a ton, I never knew all that.

Over the years I've had a couple "good" Christian types do their best to convince me Hitler and his gang were all atheists, and that was the root of their horrible deeds. 

I will argue in a later post that Christianity, itself, was the root of those deeds.

Doug

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24 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That is your perception, and  it may be your experience, but clinical studies show that older peole in  aged care/nursing homes also are happier, longer lived, and in better health, if the y have a positive spiritual faith.

Often we tend to see what we want to see.

Looking at academic/ unbiased studies gives a more accurate picture 

In the following piece i learned something I didn't know. ie tha t religious faith can slow the onset of dementia

quote

Spirituality is a significant part of many people’s lives, and it can become even more important as we grow older. A study by the University of Chicago found belief in god tends to increase with age, especially for those older than 68. Luckily for these spiritual seniors, faith practices come with a host of health benefits.

For example, spirituality can improve quality for life for seniors with dementia. Practicing a religion can help slow cognitive decline and reduce or stabilize cognitive disorders, according to International Psychogeriatrics. The use of spirituality in daily life enables those with dementia to preserve relationships, maintain hope and find meaning.

“Dementia may seem to mask the need for spirituality, but the reality is that, from my experience, cognitive impairment does not eclipse our innate need as human beings for inner peace, comfort, prayer, and rituals,” says Sister Karen Kielb, a Chaplain at Mercy Retirement & Care Center.

Another benefit of spirituality is the strong sense of community that is at the heart of most faith groups. People form and strengthen relationships through their faith, whether it’s by attending group services or just praying with a friend.

Opportunities for social interactions are especially important to seniors, who are at risk of becoming isolated as they age. Staying social not only reduces loneliness and depression, but can also potentially reduce the risk of cardiovascular problems, Alzheimer’s disease and some cancers.

https://eldercarealliance.org/blog/seniors-and-spirituality-health-benefits-of-faith/

Ps you are right about the use of faith constructs as psychological tools,  but then that is rather my point. They WORK  (sometimes for the reasons you describe)  So does having a pet, but that is often not allowed in nursing homes. So does having a loving partner, but for many elderly they have lost that.  

Ha ha ha ha ha on faith preventing dementia, you believe any ole thing. In a fantasy perhaps, but not actuality.
 

‘’As Doug has asked it is best to start your own thread.  
 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Working as a professional caregiver, you would be surprised how many drop religion as having outgrown it at the last part of their life and for those that don’t what seems to be the attraction is the tailor made up support system, it helps a person hang in there, have someone pretend to vent too, self validate, agree with everything they think, say or do or choose etc.. I find it interesting how people apply their god constructs. 
 

But, a faith in a creator in and of itself isn’t gonna give anyone better health, maintaining a healthy weight, eating right, exercising, social support, consistent love and affection, sleeping enough, novel experiences, getting out and experiencing things, going to the doctor and dentist are the things you want to do for longevity and quality of life.

Very very well said my friend, I hope your trip went well and I also hope you and your family are well. I hope you don't mind if i inject another issue that is currently going on in America. Currently Evangelical Christians are pushing their Anti-abortion doctrine again and they influencing the Political Environment in the state of Texas, and to some extent the Supreme Court who are no longer supporting Roe verse Wade. For me personally I am very tired of Extreme Religious involvement in the Politics of the United States. We had to deal with it during the Trump Administration with Evangelicals and Zionist Christians influencing foreign policy decisions in the Middle East.

I suppose my question is who the hell do these people think they are and why would Poitical organizations even try to help them push their Extremely Twisted Religious beliefs on all Americans Nationwide. In my opinion these Extremist Christian Organizations need to be stopped, and stopped quickly before their fanatical control disrupts our Nation and it's policies any further. I also believe they have no right to take control of any women's body and tell them what is and isn't exceptable concerning their health.

Peace my friend, i value your opinion, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this situation!:tu:

 

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17 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

OK.  You don't have any research articles and I won't ask for any.  It might be a good idea to start another thread on this topic

He likely doesn't realize that you're a scientist, who can easily see through whatever BS articles he picks up from his cursory Google searches. 

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15 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Very very well said my friend, I hope your trip went well and I also hope you and your family are well. I hope you don't mind if i inject another issue that is currently going on in America. Currently Evangelical Christians are pushing their Anti-abortion doctrine again and they influencing the Political Environment in the state of Texas, and to some extent the Supreme Court who are no longer supporting Roe verse Wade. For me personally I am very tired of Extreme Religious involvement in the Politics of the United States. We had to deal with it during the Trump Administration with Evangelicals and Zionist Christians influencing foreign policy decisions in the Middle East.

I suppose my question is who the hell do these people think they are and why would Poitical organizations even try to help them push their Extremely Twisted Religious beliefs on all Americans Nationwide. In my opinion these Extremist Christian Organizations need to be stopped, and stopped quickly before their fanatical control disrupts our Nation and it's policies any further. I also believe they have no right to take control of any women's body and tell them what is and isn't exceptable concerning their health.

Peace my friend, i value your opinion, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this situation!:tu:

 

I will pm you, so as to not derail. :wub:

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9 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

He likely doesn't realize that you're a scientist, who can easily see through whatever BS articles he picks up from his cursory Google searches. 

That is what I thought too, MW doesn’t know he is talking to a scientist, perhaps he will learn something. :P

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22 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

‘’As Doug has asked it is best to start your own thread.  

I didn't mean that Mr. Walker wasn't welcome on this thread.  If he wants to refute something I have posted, that's fine.  It's encouraged.  But whatever one posts, one should be ready to back it up and articles on intelligent machines aren't going to get the job done.

Doug

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3 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I didn't mean that Mr. Walker wasn't welcome on this thread.  If he wants to refute something I have posted, that's fine.  It's encouraged.  But whatever one posts, one should be ready to back it up and articles on intelligent machines aren't going to get the job done.

Doug

Works for me :D Good to have you back posting Doug as always you are interesting to read. 

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3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Works for me :D Good to have you back posting Doug as always you are interesting to read. 

I seem to remember you looking a lot like Katniss Aberdeen and carrying a bow.  My how you've changed.

Doug

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22 hours ago, Will Due said:

But Doug, so were a lot of atheists. 

True.  Atheists have often had to go underground for fear of the religious communities around them.

Doug

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4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I seem to remember you looking a lot like Katniss Aberdeen and carrying a bow.  My how you've changed.

Doug

Changed for the better or worse? :P

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4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Better. Better.  You look great - if that's really you.

Doug

Yes, that is really me and thank you for your kind words. 

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2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Moravian missionaries

In western Kansas not far from Stone Post, is a little town named Dunkard.  The local Church of the Brethren (Moravian) has put up a sign along I-70:  "The Dunkard Church of the Brethren welcomes you."   But the writing is small and the natural tendency is to read an "r" into Dunkard.  There have been a lot of double-takes along that stretch of highway.

Doug

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1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

This is a review of other studies.  It does not, in-and-of itself demonstrate anything.  It is more of a literature review.  It doesn't even mention randomized design or give any information about how research subjects were chosen.  There can be considerable bias in unrandomized designs.  It does refer to quite a number of other studies.  If there is any evidence of a positive effect of religion/spirituality, it must be in those other studies.

This is not a peer-reviewed paper.  It does not describe any test or experiment.  It says that people who live in "blue zones (faith-based communities)" live longer than people not part of a faith-based community, but presents no data or reasoning process to support that conclusion.  It suggests a number of reasons why people might live longer, such as, better diets, regular exercise, moderate alcohol consumption, good spiritual, family and social networks, but makes no effort to determine which combination might be responsible,  The paper is not a research paper and spends most of its space talking about a "zone diet."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/?sh=79dfbb583a12

This is an article in Forbes.  It is not peer-reviewed.  A genuine research article would normally have 20 to 30 citations and some have upwards of 150.  This has none.  The author provides a link so a reader can check out her other articles. They are a collection of how-to-improve-your-life artcies and do not mention spirituality or religion.  Most of the space is taken up by an article on intelligent machines.

 

OK.  You don't have any research articles and I won't ask for any.  It might be a good idea to start another thread on this topic

Doug

I gave you the review of other studies first precisely because it was an overview.

At first I wasn't going to bother trying to convince you at all but thought that  article was a good read.

If you think I am wrong based on your beliefs,  then you go researching and try to find if /where I am wrong. 

Ps You realise that many such articles give their own  scholarly  sources at the end and  that you can access them yourself  I dont have the time to re-prove this to everyone who  has ever heard of it before  It is like being asked to prove that the earth is not flat but an oblate spheroid.

Koenigs summation, for example provides over 600 sources that you might find interesting 

here are the first 100 :) 

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ie If don't give you (generic)  scholarly sources to prove its not flat, then I haven't proven this to you, and you  can feel justified in continuing to believe that it's flat  :)

BUT if you  (anyone) did a little unbiased research for yourself you would see that it is a sphere 

Factual ignorance is what allows people to keep believing what the y need to believe

 Did you bother spending a little time examining the initial research and statistics for blue zones or the other papers  ? 

 

Here are a further cited sources from  another paper.

 

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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

He likely doesn't realize that you're a scientist, who can easily see through whatever BS articles he picks up from his cursory Google searches. 

if true, then my points should be all the more convincing .

A scientist wouldn't allow prejudice to blind them to  scientific facts.

I don't see it as my business to prove such a well known fact. 

 It is so well known that it is now incorporated in most teaching hospitals and universities, in courses on medicine, psychology, and aged care, for example 

And Ive been studying /researching this for two decades at least, so I  probably  have a better knowledge than a scientist in another area . 

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12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If you think I am wrong based on your beliefs,  then you go researching and try to find if /where I am wrong. 

I am probably better at locating research articles than you are.  It will save both of us time if I do my own research.  However, that is not really my area of interest or expertise.  So I am asking you just to back up whatever you say.  Nothing more is needed.

14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Ps You realise that many such articles give their own  scholarly  sources at the end

The ones you posted and I reviewed did not.

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Koenigs summation, for example provides over 600 sources that you might find interesting 

So what, exactly, are you trying to show by copying somebody else's references?

Doug

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9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

so I  probably  have a better knowledge than a scientist in another area

You probably do.  But what I would like to see is some of that expertise posted in support of your opinions.  A hundred references are useless,  You need to cite the exact one that backs up a particular statement.  Example (Walker 2021) with a link posted below.  Any item that MIGHT be controversial, or about which someone might ask how you know that should have a reference.  EXCEPT:  this is UM.  We don't ordinarily post our sources unless asked.  But we do need to be ready in case somebody asks.

We are getting a little off-topic here.  God-and-motherhood statements about how religion is/is not great is not really what this thread is about.  If you'd like to say that I got something wrong, like for example, the top Nazis weren't Christians, that we can discuss.

Doug

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1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

I didn't mean that Mr. Walker wasn't welcome on this thread.  If he wants to refute something I have posted, that's fine.  It's encouraged.  But whatever one posts, one should be ready to back it up and articles on intelligent machines aren't going to get the job done.

Doug

Thanks 

Sherapy has a tendency to try and shut me up, rather than debate issues she disagrees with me on 

I am well informed and read on this particular issue, having been studying it and following it for over 2 decades 

In this case my argument goes directly to your thread 

I personally believe that faith and belief (from shamanism to the most modern forms)are evolved qualities of human cognition, and that religion is an evolved social structure (like organised sport)

  They all evolved because they promote human survival and well being .

Thus, despite the harm done by religion and competing faiths, in principle  I believe human are intrinsically spiritual beings, and social ones, who benefit from  faith and relgion.

ALL the research supports this view although, as with anything, there are exceptions and complexities eg destructive faiths can bring negative outcomes, but these are comparatively rare (something like  5% of people report that faith/belie  has harmed them 

Humans would not have evolved self  aware consciousness without also evolving spirituality and religious forms.

Thus, it is no good trying to eliminate them  They are too "tied in"  to our cognitive /psychological evolved processing

. We should, instead, work towards using them, and their power, for constructive purposes. 

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5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus, it is no good trying to eliminate them 

Does anybody think we actually can?  After 70+ years of communist atheism, the Orthodox church returned almost overnight.  It had just gone underground.  No.  We're not going to stamp out religion any time soon.

Doug

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On 9/3/2021 at 8:59 PM, Doug1066 said:

And, so, the Holocaust was brought to you by good Christians.

Before you crucify me:  I have more on that subject.

 The Holocaust was brought about by Adolph Hitler.   Consider  yourself crucified.  

Religions...all of them have done a great deal of good for billions of people.  There are no perfect entities, no perfect corporations,  so this entire thread is nothing more than your own prejudiced views of religion because you were born into a Birth Box of your parent's beliefs.   As are we all.  Your prejudice is just your prejudice.  Maybe you should start a blog entitled...How Religion Harmed Me.   

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9 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I am probably better at locating research articles than you are.  It will save both of us time if I do my own research.  However, that is not really my area of interest or expertise.  So I am asking you just to back up whatever you say.  Nothing more is needed.

The ones you posted and I reviewed did not.

So what, exactly, are you trying to show by copying somebody else's references?

Doug

Showing you that the first source I gave you provided a wealth of material, which you could examine, including hundreds of scholarly /peer reviewed articles  written in academic journals etc.  It also backs up my claim about the number and   range of scholarly sources on this issue.

  Tell me, would you argue if I told you that, having a dog ,exercise,  social contacts, or (for men but not women)  marriage; ,adds years to a statistical l life  expectancy,  and  better health?

if not, then why argue that a positive faith and religious attendance (which serve similar psychical purposes)  do not. 

I'm not here to change your mind, just to tell you that you are wrong (on this issue)  :)  

if you read those articles (most of which I have read) then, as a scientist, you would change your mind, or at least be better informed,  given the evidences presented in them.

Failure to do your own research enables you to maintain a belief driven position, because you haven't looked at the facts.

Maybe it is simple lack of interest,  as you say.   

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2 minutes ago, joc said:

 The Holocaust was brought about by Adolph Hitler.   Consider  yourself crucified.  

Religions...all of them have done a great deal of good for billions of people.  There are no perfect entities, no perfect corporations,  so this entire thread is nothing more than your own prejudiced views of religion because you were born into a Birth Box of your parent's beliefs.   As are we all.  Your prejudice is just your prejudice.  Maybe you should start a blog entitled...How Religion Harmed Me.   

Religion has indeed done a great deal of good for billions of people.  But it has also harmed billions.

The Catholic church, for example, has been around for almost 2000 years.  In that time it has been everything an organization can be, from extremely pious and beneficial to something that would make the Mafia cringe.  So where does the balance lie?

Doug

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