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The Harm Done By Religion


Doug1066
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Just now, Crazy Horse said:

Yes.

Acceptance of everything that happens, good, bad, or ugly, is of vital importance for anyone who is interested, desirous, to harmonise and know GOD.

 

This just backs up my previous post.

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6 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Something is either possible or it is not.

True, but that isn't what you were asking. You were asking what I believed.

Had you asked, Does any god exist? that's a well-posed yes-or-no question, and the responsive answers are yes, no, or else I lack enough relevant information to answer. Those are the responsive answers to any and every well-posed yes-or-no question.

Changing the question from one of fact to one of belief (= something to which I am a witness) doesn't compel that only yes or else no would be responsive answers.

It is perfectly routine for any person not to know what they believe about an arbitrary question of fact (Is Paris bigger in area than Boston?) and for the same reason (for me) as with the Question of God. I lack enough relevant information about the subject, I don't have a "belief" to know.

Do I believe that Paris is bigger than Boston? No.

Do I believe that Paris is no bigger than Boston? No.

As it happens, there is no ordinary and usual word in English for that pattern of beliefs. This is because English speakers rarely discuss the relative sizes of Paris and Boston compared with how often many of them discuss the Question of God.

Ironically, were I to say I am agnostic about the relative area of Paris and Boston, then I wager that you would know exactly what I meant, and that I meant just the pattern of beliefs depicted in my answers to the two questions just given.

Seriously possible (in this context):

My intent was simply that

It is seriously possible that Paris is bigger than Boston and seriously possible that Paris is no bigger than Boston

describes the same state of belief as answering no to both questions about Paris and Boston as shown above.

On the definition of agnostic (like any other word, only at warp speed)

Agnostic is a young word and changed meaning rapidly during the lifetime of its inventor. At the outset, literally one person alone knew what the word meant, and by 1900 it was a common English word - meaning something else than it had originally meant. That is, the meaning changed from initially describing a rich system of beliefs held by exactly one person to a tiny subset of those beliefs shared by many people. Coincidentally, while that was happening, related words (e.g. to know) were also changing their meanings, more or less independently of the trajectory of agnostic.

Dictionaries and similar reference works record the ways in which words have been used by native speakers, as observed by the compilers of the work. That information is useful, but not legislative for users of a word. For a young labile word like agnostic, it may be a chore to sort out the meaning in a specific context from the riot of ways the word has been used in different contexts over time, even recent times.

You gave a nice example:

6 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

"asserting that it is not possible to know anything about god(s)."

Meaning what? I lack sufficient information to make an anwer or I along with everybody else shall always lack sufficient information to make answer? The first of those is responsive to the QoG (as it is with the Question of Paris v. Boston), and the other is a philosophical claim that explains the responsive answer which it implies.

I have no doubt that people use the term agnostic in the philosophical claim sense. As it happens, I am agnostic about the merits of that claim. Thus informed, you know that I am not using agnostic in that sense. (If any gods exist, which I believe to be seriously possible, then it is not obvious to me that all human beings must always be in ignorance of their existence. Meanwhile, however, I am ignorant, and that suffices for me to answer QoG respnsively here and now).

Edited by eight bits
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19 hours ago, joc said:

Let me break it down for you brother:

I have experienced walking in the rain, in different situations, in different times.  Every time I walked in the rain I got wet.  How that experience made me feel is how that experience made me feel...the experience itself was...being wet.

 The experiences you have had are very real.  All experiences are.  The 'experience' is real.  What you experienced is all mental.  And everything mentally experienced is The Experience.  And when you experience something mentally...it has a lot of meaning for you...and you alone.   And that's cool.  Flow with it!  But just keep in mind that the moment you begin to share your own personal mental experiences...your own personal 'knowing' based on those experiences...in that moment, your 'sharing of experience' becomes  'opinion'. 

So, while your experiences have great meaning to you, meh, not so much to everyone else.

It's kind of like when my daughter was  young and we were driving listening to the Disney Channel and the announcer said...if you know who just sang that song call in and win a prize...so she called, and called, and called, and called and it was always busy, busy, busy....and she started crying and she said, But I know the answer!  I know the answer!  

I told her, But honey, so do millions of other little girls and they are all trying to call in too...but only a couple are going to get through.

Hey, I hear you man.  I wish people would listen to me too.  I have ALL of the answers.  But what good is having all the answers, any of the answers, if no one is interested in listening?  

Further breaking downage:

God is a concept.  No one can put their finger on it but everyone seems to have a different opinion about what God is.  But because everyone has an opinion, no one really cares much about the opinions of anyone else.  If you could Mind Melt your experience into someone else's brain maybe.....   But you cannot.  And so it just enters the vast domain of opinion. 

 

It may well be just an opinion for others, or an anecdote, testimony..

But for me it remains real.

And for anyone who is interested, they may know THAT too.

Thanks Joc.

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19 hours ago, joc said:

Edison lit up all the rooms!   Following the tenants of Christianity is one thing.  Dogma is another.  Napoleon Hill lit up the hearts and minds of men as well...and that peace is also real.  But Napoleon Hill was a real guy...like Edison.  HE wrote a real book.  Edison actually created real light.  Christ died. And his teachings have been abandoned by the Church. So, pardon me if I don't care what Christ said or did or what the freaking church believes or what you believe for that matter.  Believing is something that people do when they don't know! So, if  you really 'knew' you wouldn't believe a damn thing!  You're welcome

You are free to believe, or care, about anything I say, or not.

I don't care.

I am trying to sort out my life which is a full time job anyhow.

For what its worth, I see the whole of our history as a story.

Only, some stories are helpful in the sense of a peaceful, happy life, and some are more harmful.

And, even if the Church has abandoned Christs teachings, then why throw-out the baby (Jesus, and his message) with the bath water?

That's not smart!!

 

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On 11/5/2021 at 6:31 PM, joc said:

If you want to be precise (and you cannot) where in the scriptures does it predict The Christ?  Was it the vague meanderings from the Old Testament...or was it the Hunting and Pecking of Herod in the New Testament?

It seems like you already know the answer. I'm I missing something here?

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2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, even if the Church has abandoned Christs teachings, then why throw-out the baby (Jesus, and his message) with the bath water?

It would be better for you to spend some real time with your shadow. Instead of hiding behind your spiritual beliefs. If you don't spend time bringing the unconscious to conscious awareness, you'll never truly progress.

A dark night of the soul tends to pull all the horrible stuff about ourselves to the surface. The things we mask and hide through our varying belief. 

It is often a very ugly and depressing process. Especially when there is no way to hide from it.

I get the feeling you talk a good game, but you have many demons yet to face. Perhaps one day you'll start to become indifferent toward others. Realizing that there isn't one answer, no single truth. Maybe, just maybe, you will understand that religion and spirituality are just mask.

Considering it's been 10 years of forced self work and still much to go. I hope you find your true and honest path one day.

There will be so many illusions and delusions you will need to let go of. 

I do wish you luck, you might find yourself one day. 

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19 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Of course you will have times of feeling awe, love and gratitude through the course of your life. If I remember correctly, you are a father aren’t you? I am certain you feel joy, gratitude and awe about your kids.
 

Just some feedback: non-attachment is open awareness which means one does not cling to any thought or experience. It sounds to me you are attached to the idea (opinion)that you have connected to god, (in no uncertain terms) a non attached person would not defend or oversell their experience to the degree you are as hard as this is to hear, keep in mind this is your ego. 

I agree with your point on non-attachment.

What has happened has happened and there is no changing that. But if one may accept the good with the bad and the ugly, all as one, as a reflection of GOD trying to teach you something, then there is no "footprint" in the mind, no karma remade, and peace.

And from this place anything is possible.

And for the record, one is not attached to the idea of having a connection, to THAT, in-fact, as stated above, any attachment is unhelpful when seeking GOD, it actually gets in the way, 

Therefore, ego it is not.

 

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On 11/5/2021 at 1:45 PM, XenoFish said:

Don't you mean threating? Not treating. 

I notice how you often strain a gnat but swallow a cow. But, unfortunately, that's not going to help you.

Edited by larryp
the details!
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1 minute ago, larryp said:

I notice how you often strain a gnat but swallow a caw. But, unfortunately, that's not going to help you.

Do not think to highly of yourself. If you are a follower of god, you represent your god and to be honest that isn't a good image. It doesn't express much in terms of a loving and compassionate entity. Seems more demonic than divine. Perhaps that's just the indoctrination talking. Oh, well. I have low expectations these days. 

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18 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Who said I hadn't investigated it? Only you. Happiness is just a chemical in the brain. How you trigger it is up to you. 

You have investigated meditation to the point of at-one-ment?

With no thoughts?

With a sense of non-attachment that morphs into One(ness)?

And total peace?

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18 hours ago, Sherapy said:

CH, there is no condemnation towards you. Anyone can have a psychotic split. Long term chronic stress can bring it on, easily.  
They sound worse than they are.  There is a lot of stigma around “psychotic.”

Remember altered states of consciousness can include delusions and hallucinations,  a common one is claiming a connection to god.
 

At best one can reach a state of thoughtless silence here and there as a result of meditation which simply put is altering ones consciousness by focusing ones attention. 
 

No serious meditation practitioner makes claims that they have connected to god and if they do it is their ego talking. It is not rocket science. Rule of thumb exercise caution when someone is trying to sell you hubris, and it helps to know the difference. 
 


As always, all the best to you. 

 

 

If one has no thoughts at that particular moment, then there are no delusions because there is no judgment or discernment either.

And as previously stated there are no hallucinations either.

And the only reason to talk about such things is that someone may find them interesting, and or, helpful, in their own practice.

Personally, I really don't mind either way, only I feel drawn to discuss these topics right now..

One may take them to heart and act upon them, and so know the truth for oneself, or not.

Your choice.

 

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2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You have investigated meditation to the point of at-one-ment?

With no thoughts?

With a sense of non-attachment that morphs into One(ness)?

And total peace?

I wasn't impressed by it. I started practing magick in 1996 meditation was one of the first exercises. That state of consciousness is fleeting, I had a long stride of it. However, life is life and it will throw a lot at a person. No amount of inner peace can overcome some things. In an occultist career there is a moment simply known as the dark night of the soul. It is a point where everything that we keep hidden is thrown back at us. All those thoughts, feelings, impulses, wishes and desires that are not the best. We are forced to face them. Like I mentioned to you before. You reach a zen point, then what? What next? This thing you're chasing is a life time process. Not something you can do with a 16 week course. 

You might not realize it and I'm sure you'll deny it, but I've been trying to help you. You think of god as everything, fine. I personally have no issues with your truth and subjective opinion. You seek enlightenment and oneness. All I can say is to not force or strain the process it'll happen and you'll feel a sort of positive indifference. But you must face yourself. Always ask yourself "Why", what do you do what you do, what do you say what you say. I personally found that by asking myself "why" I could discover my hidden motivators. 

If you truly think god is love, you need to deeply understand what love is. If you wish to cultivate a loving and compassionate nature, sympathy to the suffering is a way to start. I know you have trouble with that from personal experience. The point I'm trying to make is that your desire to impose your beliefs are others only go to hurting you. Let go. Metaphorically (maybe figurately) speaking. To be god, is to become fully self actualize. With a good nature and a kind heart. You've got to really face your demons and quit hiding behind the mask. 

Because having that zen like moment is all well and good, but it doesn't really mean anything. Sure you'll feel a deep sense of no-thing-ness. A disconnect from the world. However, you still have to live in the world. You can't escape it. As someone who has suffered much at my own hands, I'll tell you this. Once you realize that we're all headed towards death and this finite life might be all we have, you will see things differently. 

You can ignore all that I've wrote. Call me wrong. Even tell me I'm stupid. That's fine, but you're spiritual immature. Work on yourself and don't worry about others. If there truly is a god-like-thing, let it deal with each one of us on its own terms. Not man-made ones. 

With that I'm done with this conversation. The harm religion really does is creating illusions and delusions of divine purpose based on another persons desires and wishes. Escape and find your own balance. 

Have a good day. 

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10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I cant speak for an individual, but  ridicule helps overcome fear :) 

Some people are terrified that there might be more to life than the material.

They find that  challenging,  complex, and daunting itself, without having to worry about (and take responsibility for)   the spiritual side of their  existence . 

Yes, thanks for that Mr W.

For my part, is was a question born from an objective viewpoint, without any judgement, just wanting to understand..

 

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On 11/6/2021 at 5:56 AM, XenoFish said:

What you don't seen to get is that we subjectively experience objective reality.

A pure and true view of things simply doesn't exist . . ."

So, you're just a marionette. That's like your millions and millions of years fantasy club. Who will believe that?

LOL . . .

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3 minutes ago, larryp said:

So, you're just a marionette. That's like your millions and millions of years fantasy club. Who will believe that?

LOL . . .

I am, who I am. That is all that I am. 

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8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I am, who I am. That is all that I am. 

YHWH

People here don't want to share in your fantasy, pal.

Edited by larryp
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1 minute ago, larryp said:

People here don't want to share in your fantasy, pal.

That's a very appropriate assessment to make on the comments you posted too. I completely agree with you on the subject!

Peace my :tu:

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On 11/6/2021 at 7:03 AM, Manwon Lender said:

1. No you don't really get wet it's all an illusion and your a free electron traveling through cyber space . . ."

Smoke and mirrors!

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2 minutes ago, larryp said:

^^^ Thanks for the support!

In my interaction with you I truly believe your a reasonable person. I also fully understand that as far as our religious beliefs are concerned we are Polar opposites, however even with that with said we have not been disingenuous to each other or disrespectful to each others beliefs and in reality they are is no reason to be. According to my spiritual philosophy Buddhists are taught to respect the religious beliefs of others, and not to attack or denigrate those beliefs in anyway. Because what purpose does that serve, and how does it effect anything of importance. Negativity be gets negativity and it serves no other purpose, and negative responses can only be tolerated for so long because its like a poison that pollutes the entire environment it is introduced to. Those who unfortunately suffer form depression in any form live a terrible life, I suffer from PTSD and at times it makes me become very depressed in fact the only way to explain it is like being at the bottom of a very deep hole and listening to world around me, but from my position I can not clearly see or understand what is really happening around me, everything is a blur and the sounds are muted. 

take care my friend!!:tu:

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2 minutes ago, larryp said:

Smoke and mirrors!

Yes it is and some people chose to live their lives in that manner, for me I just ignore them because their opinions do not ever effect my personal belief system and they never will!:tu:

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On 11/6/2021 at 7:45 AM, lightly said:

It's interesting how big of change the New Testament is..?   Talk of peace and love and forgiveness would be refreshing compared to the strictness of the Old Testament ?     

You can almost understand why Catholics dismiss the old for the new.

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Some people don't seem to realize you can't badger or coerce or guilt-shame someone to either believe or disbelieve. It's their choice and no one else's business. 

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