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The Harm Done By Religion


Doug1066
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On 9/4/2021 at 1:15 AM, Mr Walker said:

Men (and the occasional woman) :)   may unite people while they live, but only ideas or beliefs unify people for millennia,  because the beliefs go on long after the founder dies, and beliefs are more powerful than any army or physical power 

Yes, in the middle ages, many nation states were actually closely associated   with Catholicism BUT  (usually) they remained separate  entities  Sometimes the state was more powerful  but often the church was, as it could count on MANY other states for military or economic support, and had the power to excommunicate everyone in a country, thus turning the citizens against the king,   because they feared not getting to heaven,  more than even dying 

Like I said, the Holy Roman Empire.   

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On 9/2/2021 at 8:42 PM, Mr Walker said:

Thus, statistically, religion is better for humans than non religion. 

Any time someone says "Statisitically", I know they are stating and opinion and want people to think it is a fact, but it is only an opinion.   No statistician would ever start a sentence with that word.   Same with "Statistics prove..."   You can manipulate statistics to "prove" anyting you want.

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8 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Metadata is simply data about the data.  If you're working with a list of temperatures, metadata might include the time of day the measurement was taken, the person who recorded it and the location of the station.  This can be used to ascertain how reliable the temperature data is, correct it to the conventional 7:00 a.m. time for reading thermometers and measure the bias of and correct the readings of different observers.  Meta-analysis is usually of interest only to other researchers working with the same type of data.  It is convincing only in that it assures readers that nothing has been missed.

Doug

Meta data comes from  studies of many similar studies.

Perhaps there is a difference in usage between science and  social science disciplines like History or Geography   or demographic studies .

As I've said before I completed/ passed a compulsory   year of statistical studies as part of my university  work and while i dont claim to be an expert i understand   statistical usage. 

The results of meta studies on an issue can be coordinated and analysed and more reliable/certain   conclusions drawn  eg a major meta study showed that the greater the rigour and peer review of such studies, the greater the correlation between religiosity/spirituality and  longevity /better health. This would not have been obvious without a meta study .

The meta studies of  this subject confirm and strengthen the  thousands of individual studies and also give clues as to causal links .

 

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8 hours ago, Solipsi Rai said:

Doug also said: Everybody:  religion has done great good in the world.  I recognize that.  It is not an issue.  But there are some who see any criticism of religion as an attack on god, as if god can't take care of him/herself.  This thread is not about god.  It is about the dark side of religion.  Let's try to remember that.

In this country, religion was used to promote "morals, ethics, manners, rules, laws and customs" to strictly govern our daily lives, our behavior, and our culture. The religious right said socialism is "evil, unAmerican and not biblical", then you realized they contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ who formed Christianity in Palestine during the Romans, he would be compared to a hippie today. And the puritan Calvinist work ethic, sexual prudishness and their fear of vulgar/obscene/profane language that may be impolite in public, but it doesn't shock people anymore (slurs against people are considered more dangerous to mutter out now).

Do you see the bolded bit as a bad thing?

.In  itself, using beliefs and values  to reinforce behaviour is powerful and logical

Only where beliefs are harmful does it become a problem Eg property laws and human rights derive from   religious/spiritual values about human worth and value   (intrinsically a human being is worth very little. We value add to it through beliefs about the significance of a human life .) Most sexual customs were built on religious laws based on observation of physical and social health 

The family unit was underwritten by the churches because it was needed for a strong stable society which included individual property ownership

There is a balance between  individual liberties and social cohesion and safety.  If the balance goes to far one way it will self  correct  

In the 1800s for example it was too far to the "right,"  with little personal freedom and strict social moralities. Today it is too far to the "left" ie individuall rights are damaging social strength and cohesion and thus actually harming individuals. 

Ps There is nothing wrong with a bit of "Calvinist morality and work ethic"  Just don't take it too far .

Nothing wrong with a hippy lifestyle either if it can be sustained without costs to others  ie is not paid for by those with a more Calvinist work ethic :)  

Language is a cultural construct  Id have had my mouth washed out with soap in the fifties for BOTH swearing and blasphemy    (beca8se i t was not socially appropriate and would have embarrassed my parents but also for name calling o r racist slurs which denigrated women or other cultures 

(like b**** or ****  or wog  or coon )

Names represent people and people deserve the respect of being  spoken to and about with respect   

(Ive never even really felt comfortable with the Aussie tradition of using nicknames, or calling a mate an "old b******" ,   but if the person doesn't mind, then it  is acceptable, even if I wouldn't use it  )

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The religious right can be a problem when it comes to ensuring everyone in America behaves "Christ-Like", they can be ultra-patriotic stating we're #1. the freest nation in the world and "never done anything wrong". They tend to oppose Labor Unions and support the Death Penalty, both typical traits of conservatism...and esp. the second amendment while they oppose universal health care. In the 1980s, the religious right with their retro-conservatism became quite popular, including a very sex-negative approach to reverse the sexual revolution of the 1960s-70s, but also in the 1990s-2000s. there was a PC-SJW-Liberal cause against sexual harassment or misconduct, most notably the workplace where such acts happen. And finally, the religous right insist the adult age should be 21 (i.e. to drink alcohol), made laws to enforce teens or minors should not be on their own until they reach 18 and the strictly enforced curfews, school attendance laws and nanny state rules.  It seems it all stemmed from a "religious" source, the Judeo-Christian tradition of morality and ethics, churches teaching us to not be murderers, thefts, liars, corrupt, use illicit drugs, being bigoted and not caring for the environment.  

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4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Any time someone says "Statisitically", I know they are stating and opinion and want people to think it is a fact, but it is only an opinion.   No statistician would ever start a sentence with that word.   Same with "Statistics prove..."   You can manipulate statistics to "prove" anyting you want.

Untrue.

 Statistics are the ONLY mathematical way to establish truth.

and so, of course, it is important to make clear if/when an argument is based on statistics rather than subjective opinion or belief.

  If i  believe something, I will say so.

If i know something I will say that.

if statistics prove or support my knowledge i will make that clear

In this case, the statistics are conclusive, and come from  all over the world (with some cultural variations ) 

This is so accepted that it is part of teaching practice in most western institutions involved with human health and care, like hospitals and nursing homes 

The only people who still try to deny it are those  that don't LIKE religious/spiritual belief.

Practitioners today are educated not to let this form of bias affect their attitude to, or treatment of, patients. 

 

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To desert rat and doug1066

This is a short piece which illustrates what i am talking about, both with statistical usage and meta studies 

quote

Religious attendance and mortality

A well documented association is the inverse relationship between religious attendance and mortality. For example, a US national study of 21 000 adults documented a strong graded association between religious attendance and mortality, with people who had never attended services having a 19 times higher risk of death over an 8-year period than those who attended more than once a week.30 This association existed for most causes of death. Striking differences in life expectancy were also evident. Life expectancy at age 20 for people who attended services more than once a week was, on average, seven and a half years longer than those who never attended. This association was even stronger in African Americans, with a 13.7-year difference in life expectancy.30 A meta-analysis of 42 studies, surveying nearly 126 000 people and controlling for sociodemographic and physical health status factors, concluded that active religious involvement increased the odds of being alive at follow-up by 26%. These effects were stronger for women than men, possibly due to differences between men and women in the psychosocial support that they receive from religion.31 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

 

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholester

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

and so despite a few equivocal results, the conclusion remains the same 

spirituality and religiosity both have a strong positive effectt on physical and psychological well being 

Experts in other fields now believe this is an evolved (genetic)  survival  trait   Faith/ belief confers physical benefits on humans (like lower blood pressure  stress and anxiety )  which, by   reducing cardiovascular diseases and perhaps cancer,  extend life and  thus have spread  in the human species to become almost  universal.

  Some studies have shown that faith/ belief confers the same positive effects on blood pressure as exercise or prescribed  drugs. 

This effect seems to be widespread A study of Tibetan Buddhists compared to non Buddhists showed highly protective results of both diet and time spent in religious activities  on blood pressure

quote

As shown in Table 7, logistic regression analysis revealed a significantly protective role of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity against hypertension both in univariate analysis (Q2 vs Q1, OR 0.341, CI 0.201–0.579, P < 0.01; Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.199, CI 0.113–0.349, P < 0.01; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.116, CI 0.063–0.213, P < 0.01) and in multivariate analysis, which adjusted for several confounding factors (Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.287, CI 0.105–0.785, P < 0.05; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.078, CI 0.023–0.268, P < 0.01). After the exclusion of 44 hypertensive patients under antihypertensive treatment, multiple linear regression analysis was conducted among the remaining 526 Buddhist monks/nuns. Confounding factors included age, BMI, and TC. The results demonstrate that the time spent participating in Buddhist activity was negatively associated with both SBP (β = −0.112, P < 0.01) and DBP (β = −0.120, P < 0.01), which suggest a beneficial effect of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity.

 

In our study, the comparison between Tibetan Buddhists and ordinary residents demonstrates the protective role of Buddhism against hypertension in a Tibetan population. Moreover, as a Buddhism-related factor, vegetarian diet highly approximates to be protective against hypertension. Another important Buddhist behaviour is Buddhist activity participation, and longer participation time was found to be associated with a decreased prevalence of hypertension and lower BP. Furthermore, Buddhist activity was further suggested to be more vital than vegetarian diet in Tibetan hypertensive protection. Although it does not present a fully developed method for hypertensive prevention, this study suggests that religious behaviours including practising a vegetarian diet and engaging in Buddhist activity may be popularized to the general population as an alternative strategy to medicine. To our knowledge, this is the first time that an effect of Buddhist activity on hypertension has been revealed.

The protective effects of religion against hypertension revealed by our research have been supported by other studies that also compared hypertension between full-time religious staff (monks, nuns, etc.) and ordinary residents. In a 32-year prospective study conducted by Timio et al. comparing changes in BP between 144 nuns in a secluded order in Italy and 138 healthy lay women living nearby, BP remained virtually unchanged among the nuns while the women of control group showed increase in BP over time17. There was a significant difference of more than 30/15 mmHg between the two groups during the follow-up period, although the baseline data, BMI increase and menopause ages of the two groups were comparable17. Another study by Kunin et al. in the United States also found significantly lower BP in Roman Catholic nuns than in working women, with an impressive magnitude of 4 to 7 mmHg difference18. A third study was carried out among 984 monks and 1042 Tibetan residents in the Gannan Tibetan autonomous district of China, in which the overall prevalences of hypertension and BP level in monks were significantly lower than those in local residents15. M

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974409/

Edited by Mr Walker
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2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

To desert rat and doug1066

This is a short piece which illustrates what i am talking about, both with statistical usage and meta studies 

quote

Religious attendance and mortality

A well documented association is the inverse relationship between religious attendance and mortality. For example, a US national study of 21 000 adults documented a strong graded association between religious attendance and mortality, with people who had never attended services having a 19 times higher risk of death over an 8-year period than those who attended more than once a week.30 This association existed for most causes of death. Striking differences in life expectancy were also evident. Life expectancy at age 20 for people who attended services more than once a week was, on average, seven and a half years longer than those who never attended. This association was even stronger in African Americans, with a 13.7-year difference in life expectancy.30 A meta-analysis of 42 studies, surveying nearly 126 000 people and controlling for sociodemographic and physical health status factors, concluded that active religious involvement increased the odds of being alive at follow-up by 26%. These effects were stronger for women than men, possibly due to differences between men and women in the psychosocial support that they receive from religion.31 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

 

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholester

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

and so despite a few equivocal results, the conclusion remains the same 

spirituality and religiosity both have a strong positive effectt on physical and psychological well being 

Experts in other fields now believe this is an evolved (genetic)  survival  trait   Faith/ belief confers physical benefits on humans (like lower blood pressure  stress and anxiety )  which, by   reducing cardiovascular diseases and perhaps cancer,  extend life and  thus have spread  in the human species to become almost  universal.

  Some studies have shown that faith/ belief confers the same positive effects on blood pressure as exercise or prescribed  drugs. 

This effect seems to be widespread A study of Tibetan Buddhists compared to non Buddhists showed highly protective results of both diet and time spent in religious activities  on blood pressure

quote

As shown in Table 7, logistic regression analysis revealed a significantly protective role of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity against hypertension both in univariate analysis (Q2 vs Q1, OR 0.341, CI 0.201–0.579, P < 0.01; Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.199, CI 0.113–0.349, P < 0.01; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.116, CI 0.063–0.213, P < 0.01) and in multivariate analysis, which adjusted for several confounding factors (Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.287, CI 0.105–0.785, P < 0.05; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.078, CI 0.023–0.268, P < 0.01). After the exclusion of 44 hypertensive patients under antihypertensive treatment, multiple linear regression analysis was conducted among the remaining 526 Buddhist monks/nuns. Confounding factors included age, BMI, and TC. The results demonstrate that the time spent participating in Buddhist activity was negatively associated with both SBP (β = −0.112, P < 0.01) and DBP (β = −0.120, P < 0.01), which suggest a beneficial effect of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity.

 

In our study, the comparison between Tibetan Buddhists and ordinary residents demonstrates the protective role of Buddhism against hypertension in a Tibetan population. Moreover, as a Buddhism-related factor, vegetarian diet highly approximates to be protective against hypertension. Another important Buddhist behaviour is Buddhist activity participation, and longer participation time was found to be associated with a decreased prevalence of hypertension and lower BP. Furthermore, Buddhist activity was further suggested to be more vital than vegetarian diet in Tibetan hypertensive protection. Although it does not present a fully developed method for hypertensive prevention, this study suggests that religious behaviours including practising a vegetarian diet and engaging in Buddhist activity may be popularized to the general population as an alternative strategy to medicine. To our knowledge, this is the first time that an effect of Buddhist activity on hypertension has been revealed.

The protective effects of religion against hypertension revealed by our research have been supported by other studies that also compared hypertension between full-time religious staff (monks, nuns, etc.) and ordinary residents. In a 32-year prospective study conducted by Timio et al. comparing changes in BP between 144 nuns in a secluded order in Italy and 138 healthy lay women living nearby, BP remained virtually unchanged among the nuns while the women of control group showed increase in BP over time17. There was a significant difference of more than 30/15 mmHg between the two groups during the follow-up period, although the baseline data, BMI increase and menopause ages of the two groups were comparable17. Another study by Kunin et al. in the United States also found significantly lower BP in Roman Catholic nuns than in working women, with an impressive magnitude of 4 to 7 mmHg difference18. A third study was carried out among 984 monks and 1042 Tibetan residents in the Gannan Tibetan autonomous district of China, in which the overall prevalences of hypertension and BP level in monks were significantly lower than those in local residents15. M

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974409/

Hi Walker

Is this thread about Doug's OP and interesting views/presentation or your defense about something that really is not happening? I for one want to hear what Doug has to offer and would appreciate it if you would conform to staying on topic and allow Doug to continue with both the First Nations and German aspects that he is trying to present.

No one is asking for anyone to not be a part of a religion this is a discussion forum and find this particular thread of interest so would like to hear more of what Doug has to present.

Thank you :D

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From La Civita Cattoloica, a Vatican publication:

“(The Jewish nation) does not work, but traffics in the property and the work of others, it does not produce, but lives and grows fat with the products of the arts and industry of the nations that give it refuge.  It is the giant octopus that with its over-sized tentacles envelops everything.  It has its stomach in the banks…and its suction cups everywhere:  its contracts and monopolies, in credit unions and banks, in shipping and in the railroads, in the town treasuries and in state finance.  It represents the kingdom of capital…the aristocracy of gold…it reigns unopposed.”  (1893)

“The world is sick…everywhere peoples are in the grip of inexplicable convulsions.  Who is responsible?  The Synagogue.”  (1922)

“…an obvious fact that the Jews are a disruptive element because of their dominating spirit and their revolutionary tendency.  Judaism is…a foreign body that irritates and provokes the reactions of the organism it has contaminated.”  (1937)

Even the Vatican got into the act.

 

Hitler purged some of the most vocal Volkish Nazi radicals in a move to reduce ecclesiastical opposition.  By including both Catholics and Protestants as top party officials, he reduced the risk of party sectarianism.  The mirage of harmony induced Hitler to attempt to unite German Protestant churches into a single Volkish body under Nazi control.  This promptly failed.  The evangelical sects were as unwilling as ever to get along with each other, even though many clergy joined the Nazi Party.

Even after the Enabling Act, Hitler’s position was tenuous.  He needed to deepen support and cement relations with a dubious military.  What solidified Hitler’s position?  A foreign policy coup:  the Concordat of 1933 between the Nazis and the Vatican.

The Concordat was signed on July 20, 1933.  It was a classical kickback scheme.  The church endorsed the end of democracy and free speech and bound the bishops to the Reich by means of a loyalty oath.  In return the church received enormous tax income and protection of church privileges.  Religious instruction and prayer in schools were reinstated.  Criticism of the church was forbidden.  This applied only to Catholics.  Nothing protected non-Catholics.

Just a year before, the Holy See had only been able to dream of these concessions.  Catholics thought the Concordant was a masterpiece.  It was so successful that Hitler had to defend himself to Protestant clerics and Nazi radicals who viewed it as a betrayal.  If at any time, the regime chose not to honor the Concordat, there was no legal recourse.

It is argued that the church had no choice but to accept the Concordat, but Protestants suffered no more than Catholics, though the Protestant churches lacked protective agreements.  The net effect of Vatican policy was collaborative.  The 1933 Concordat is the ONLY diplomatic accord negotiated with the Nazi regime that remains in force anywhere in the world.

German Christians looked to the Nazis for a revival of “Christian” values to counter atheism.  Most welcomed the elimination of chronic public strife by terrorizing, imprisoning and killing the German left.  In newspapers and newsreels the Nazis proudly published their new concentration camps:  the German people knew what was going on.  Most followers of Jesus made no objection.  The large number of “legal” executions met indifference or approval.

So Hitler co-opted the church by a very simple means:  he bribed them.

Edited by Doug1066
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20 hours ago, Solipsi Rai said:

prohibition of first alcoholic beverages which they believe made people lazy or unable to work

Work:  the curse of the drinking class.

Doug

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11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

To desert rat and doug1066

This is a short piece which illustrates what i am talking about, both with statistical usage and meta studies 

quote

Religious attendance and mortality

A well documented association is the inverse relationship between religious attendance and mortality. For example, a US national study of 21 000 adults documented a strong graded association between religious attendance and mortality, with people who had never attended services having a 19 times higher risk of death over an 8-year period than those who attended more than once a week.30 This association existed for most causes of death. Striking differences in life expectancy were also evident. Life expectancy at age 20 for people who attended services more than once a week was, on average, seven and a half years longer than those who never attended. This association was even stronger in African Americans, with a 13.7-year difference in life expectancy.30 A meta-analysis of 42 studies, surveying nearly 126 000 people and controlling for sociodemographic and physical health status factors, concluded that active religious involvement increased the odds of being alive at follow-up by 26%. These effects were stronger for women than men, possibly due to differences between men and women in the psychosocial support that they receive from religion.31 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

 

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholester

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

and so despite a few equivocal results, the conclusion remains the same 

spirituality and religiosity both have a strong positive effectt on physical and psychological well being 

Experts in other fields now believe this is an evolved (genetic)  survival  trait   Faith/ belief confers physical benefits on humans (like lower blood pressure  stress and anxiety )  which, by   reducing cardiovascular diseases and perhaps cancer,  extend life and  thus have spread  in the human species to become almost  universal.

  Some studies have shown that faith/ belief confers the same positive effects on blood pressure as exercise or prescribed  drugs. 

This effect seems to be widespread A study of Tibetan Buddhists compared to non Buddhists showed highly protective results of both diet and time spent in religious activities  on blood pressure

quote

As shown in Table 7, logistic regression analysis revealed a significantly protective role of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity against hypertension both in univariate analysis (Q2 vs Q1, OR 0.341, CI 0.201–0.579, P < 0.01; Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.199, CI 0.113–0.349, P < 0.01; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.116, CI 0.063–0.213, P < 0.01) and in multivariate analysis, which adjusted for several confounding factors (Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.287, CI 0.105–0.785, P < 0.05; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.078, CI 0.023–0.268, P < 0.01). After the exclusion of 44 hypertensive patients under antihypertensive treatment, multiple linear regression analysis was conducted among the remaining 526 Buddhist monks/nuns. Confounding factors included age, BMI, and TC. The results demonstrate that the time spent participating in Buddhist activity was negatively associated with both SBP (β = −0.112, P < 0.01) and DBP (β = −0.120, P < 0.01), which suggest a beneficial effect of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity.

 

In our study, the comparison between Tibetan Buddhists and ordinary residents demonstrates the protective role of Buddhism against hypertension in a Tibetan population. Moreover, as a Buddhism-related factor, vegetarian diet highly approximates to be protective against hypertension. Another important Buddhist behaviour is Buddhist activity participation, and longer participation time was found to be associated with a decreased prevalence of hypertension and lower BP. Furthermore, Buddhist activity was further suggested to be more vital than vegetarian diet in Tibetan hypertensive protection. Although it does not present a fully developed method for hypertensive prevention, this study suggests that religious behaviours including practising a vegetarian diet and engaging in Buddhist activity may be popularized to the general population as an alternative strategy to medicine. To our knowledge, this is the first time that an effect of Buddhist activity on hypertension has been revealed.

The protective effects of religion against hypertension revealed by our research have been supported by other studies that also compared hypertension between full-time religious staff (monks, nuns, etc.) and ordinary residents. In a 32-year prospective study conducted by Timio et al. comparing changes in BP between 144 nuns in a secluded order in Italy and 138 healthy lay women living nearby, BP remained virtually unchanged among the nuns while the women of control group showed increase in BP over time17. There was a significant difference of more than 30/15 mmHg between the two groups during the follow-up period, although the baseline data, BMI increase and menopause ages of the two groups were comparable17. Another study by Kunin et al. in the United States also found significantly lower BP in Roman Catholic nuns than in working women, with an impressive magnitude of 4 to 7 mmHg difference18. A third study was carried out among 984 monks and 1042 Tibetan residents in the Gannan Tibetan autonomous district of China, in which the overall prevalences of hypertension and BP level in monks were significantly lower than those in local residents15. M

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974409/

 My mom was a devout Catholic too and still had a few mental breakdowns and got breast cancer and died from lung cancer. My ex died of a massive stroke he never followed his doctors advice he ate bad and didn’t exercise after his first stroke in his 30s, same with my mom she was obese and ate bad and drank a lot of alcohol after she beat great cancer the first time. She lasted 5 years then got lung cancer. I work with the chronically ill and there is no evidence to conclude that having a belief in god prevents health issues. Use great care on this MW, a religious frame helps with the social aspect namely, a support system but not if a person doesn’t go to church or attends functions or socializes with church members, or follows the healthy diet, although I will say that FaceTime is a good way to interact for the times a person can't get out. 

 

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

To desert rat and doug1066

This is a short piece which illustrates what i am talking about, both with statistical usage and meta studies 

quote

Religious attendance and mortality

A well documented association is the inverse relationship between religious attendance and mortality. For example, a US national study of 21 000 adults documented a strong graded association between religious attendance and mortality, with people who had never attended services having a 19 times higher risk of death over an 8-year period than those who attended more than once a week.30 This association existed for most causes of death. Striking differences in life expectancy were also evident. Life expectancy at age 20 for people who attended services more than once a week was, on average, seven and a half years longer than those who never attended. This association was even stronger in African Americans, with a 13.7-year difference in life expectancy.30 A meta-analysis of 42 studies, surveying nearly 126 000 people and controlling for sociodemographic and physical health status factors, concluded that active religious involvement increased the odds of being alive at follow-up by 26%. These effects were stronger for women than men, possibly due to differences between men and women in the psychosocial support that they receive from religion.31 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

 

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholester

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

and so despite a few equivocal results, the conclusion remains the same 

spirituality and religiosity both have a strong positive effectt on physical and psychological well being 

Experts in other fields now believe this is an evolved (genetic)  survival  trait   Faith/ belief confers physical benefits on humans (like lower blood pressure  stress and anxiety )  which, by   reducing cardiovascular diseases and perhaps cancer,  extend life and  thus have spread  in the human species to become almost  universal.

  Some studies have shown that faith/ belief confers the same positive effects on blood pressure as exercise or prescribed  drugs. 

This effect seems to be widespread A study of Tibetan Buddhists compared to non Buddhists showed highly protective results of both diet and time spent in religious activities  on blood pressure

quote

As shown in Table 7, logistic regression analysis revealed a significantly protective role of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity against hypertension both in univariate analysis (Q2 vs Q1, OR 0.341, CI 0.201–0.579, P < 0.01; Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.199, CI 0.113–0.349, P < 0.01; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.116, CI 0.063–0.213, P < 0.01) and in multivariate analysis, which adjusted for several confounding factors (Q3 vs Q1, OR 0.287, CI 0.105–0.785, P < 0.05; Q4 vs Q1, OR 0.078, CI 0.023–0.268, P < 0.01). After the exclusion of 44 hypertensive patients under antihypertensive treatment, multiple linear regression analysis was conducted among the remaining 526 Buddhist monks/nuns. Confounding factors included age, BMI, and TC. The results demonstrate that the time spent participating in Buddhist activity was negatively associated with both SBP (β = −0.112, P < 0.01) and DBP (β = −0.120, P < 0.01), which suggest a beneficial effect of greater time spent participating in Buddhist activity.

 

In our study, the comparison between Tibetan Buddhists and ordinary residents demonstrates the protective role of Buddhism against hypertension in a Tibetan population. Moreover, as a Buddhism-related factor, vegetarian diet highly approximates to be protective against hypertension. Another important Buddhist behaviour is Buddhist activity participation, and longer participation time was found to be associated with a decreased prevalence of hypertension and lower BP. Furthermore, Buddhist activity was further suggested to be more vital than vegetarian diet in Tibetan hypertensive protection. Although it does not present a fully developed method for hypertensive prevention, this study suggests that religious behaviours including practising a vegetarian diet and engaging in Buddhist activity may be popularized to the general population as an alternative strategy to medicine. To our knowledge, this is the first time that an effect of Buddhist activity on hypertension has been revealed.

The protective effects of religion against hypertension revealed by our research have been supported by other studies that also compared hypertension between full-time religious staff (monks, nuns, etc.) and ordinary residents. In a 32-year prospective study conducted by Timio et al. comparing changes in BP between 144 nuns in a secluded order in Italy and 138 healthy lay women living nearby, BP remained virtually unchanged among the nuns while the women of control group showed increase in BP over time17. There was a significant difference of more than 30/15 mmHg between the two groups during the follow-up period, although the baseline data, BMI increase and menopause ages of the two groups were comparable17. Another study by Kunin et al. in the United States also found significantly lower BP in Roman Catholic nuns than in working women, with an impressive magnitude of 4 to 7 mmHg difference18. A third study was carried out among 984 monks and 1042 Tibetan residents in the Gannan Tibetan autonomous district of China, in which the overall prevalences of hypertension and BP level in monks were significantly lower than those in local residents15. M

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974409/

MW, having a faith in god in and of itself isn’t gonna do much as far as a proactive approach to caring for someone who is chronically ill. It is the actual support system that is found by going to church that offers a way to address ones social needs. The brain needs novel socialization experiences. A caregiver must come up with a way to meet this human need. There is all kinds of ways it is matter of getting creative. 
 

Because, depression is huge in older adults and it isn’t the same as it is in younger folks. An important distinction, what I have been trained for and see in my work as a professional caregiver is that many who become depressed do not even report feeling sad, depression tends to show itself in being unmotivated, not having any energy, having a lot of unexplained aches and pains, short of phone calls and emails a person who is depressed has little interest in going out, they want to be alone a lot, they can’t get motivated to do the things that need to be done or might help them push through or function better, they put off important things, they are often irritable in some context and their energy goes to avoiding doing the things they should as opposed to what they could be doing, often  they just can’t get a second wind and they can have memory issues. no appetite, complain of being tired, even exhausted all the time. They hole up in the same place for hours on end and don’t want to be bothered. Also, some health issues can cause depression namely, dementia, some cardiovascular issues etc, no one is beyond becoming depressed. The best three things anyone can do who is chronically ill is stay active and be diligent in eating right, ( Mediterranean diet is the best one for longevity and used in most care facilities). Being active socially, physically and mentally is key and might help always keep in mind correlation doesn’t mean causation. but it might help.

It is really important to know the symptoms of stress, the main ones are weight gain, (stress eating), digestive issues (one should have regular/daily well formed bowel movements ) and heart disease is a big problem and is also stress related. Naturally what we eat the most affects our health we always have a choice here. We all have stressors and unique capacity to cope it is important to know how to recognize the signs when ones coping mechanisms are on overload and have a plan in place to deal with it. In my work we call it a self care plan. 
 

I can’t tell you how many chronically ill patients I have worked with were isolated and alone most of the time in some area of the house, with a spouse who left them to their television or iPad and a cell phone for emergencies doing only just the basic things such as taking meals with them, with little engagement or interaction or novel experiences mentally, physically or socially. 
 

 

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16 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

Is this thread about Doug's OP and interesting views/presentation or your defense about something that really is not happening? I for one want to hear what Doug has to offer and would appreciate it if you would conform to staying on topic and allow Doug to continue with both the First Nations and German aspects that he is trying to present.

No one is asking for anyone to not be a part of a religion this is a discussion forum and find this particular thread of interest so would like to hear more of what Doug has to present.

Thank you :D

Sorry but ,when weighing up the harm or benefit of both religious affiliation and  spirituality, the medical benefits of both must be counted quite seriously .

There is plenty of opportunity for other  discussions of a political social or economic  nature, on how religions have affected  first nation's people 

To me they seem a bit irrelevant, given that religion was just one part of the conquering culture but an integrated part   which can't be separated out.   However i appreciate that the  psychological effects of dispossession and discrimination have done great physical and psychological harm to many of them.  Other have done very well in the modern culture and society. 

Eg native people who enjoy  the r scientific benefits of western civilization today also paid the  cost of colonialism and the total transformation of their cultures   Modern representatives  cant really go back to a traditional way of life in a modern society without giving up most of the medical and scientific benefits of modern  counties 

and, in fact, a positive spiritual life and religious affiliation  is just as real and powerful as the effects of dispossession.

Sometimes it provides a counter to the negative effects, either through traditional spirituality or adherence to a christian or other form  

I cant help thinking that some people just don't want to know, or hear about, the powerful benefits of a positive faith or religious commitment  (to any belief system) 

Yet if you think about first nation's peoples before colonial contact,  it was a mainstay of their own lives 

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8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 My mom was a devout Catholic too and still had a few mental breakdowns and got breast cancer and died from lung cancer. My ex died of a massive stroke he never followed his doctors advice he ate bad and didn’t exercise after his first stroke in his 30s, same with my mom she was obese and ate bad and drank a lot of alcohol after she beat great cancer the first time. She lasted 5 years then got lung cancer. I work with the chronically ill and there is no evidence to conclude that having a belief in god prevents health issues. Use great care on this MW, a religious frame helps with the social aspect namely, a support system but not if a person doesn’t go to church or attends functions or socializes with church members, or follows the healthy diet, although I will say that FaceTime is a good way to interact for the times a person can't get out. 

 

MW, having a faith in god in and of itself isn’t gonna do much as far as a proactive approach to caring for someone who is chronically ill. It is the actual support system that is found by going to church that offers a way to address ones social needs. The brain needs novel socialization experiences. A caregiver must come up with a way to meet this human need. There is all kinds of ways it is matter of getting creative. 
 

Because, depression is huge in older adults and it isn’t the same as it is in younger folks. An important distinction, what I have been trained for and see in my work as a professional caregiver is that many who become depressed do not even report feeling sad, depression tends to show itself in being unmotivated, not having any energy, having a lot of unexplained aches and pains, short of phone calls and emails a person who is depressed has little interest in going out, they want to be alone a lot, they can’t get motivated to do the things that need to be done or might help them push through or function better, they put off important things, they are often irritable in some context and their energy goes to avoiding doing the things they should as opposed to what they could be doing, often  they just can’t get a second wind and they can have memory issues. no appetite, complain of being tired, even exhausted all the time. They hole up in the same place for hours on end and don’t want to be bothered. Also, some health issues can cause depression namely, dementia, some cardiovascular issues etc, no one is beyond becoming depressed. The best three things anyone can do who is chronically ill is stay active and be diligent in eating right, ( Mediterranean diet is the best one for longevity and used in most care facilities). Being active socially, physically and mentally is key and might help always keep in mind correlation doesn’t mean causation. but it might help.

It is really important to know the symptoms of stress, the main ones are weight gain, (stress eating), digestive issues (one should have regular/daily well formed bowel movements ) and heart disease is a big problem and is also stress related. Naturally what we eat the most affects our health we always have a choice here. We all have stressors and unique capacity to cope it is important to know how to recognize the signs when ones coping mechanisms are on overload and have a plan in place to deal with it. In my work we call it a self care plan. 
 

I can’t tell you how many chronically ill patients I have worked with were isolated and alone most of the time in some area of the house, with a spouse who left them to their television or iPad and a cell phone for emergencies doing only just the basic things such as taking meals with them, with little engagement or interaction or novel experiences mentally, physically or socially. 
 

 

Only going  to make a short comment on your  second paragraph .

Its untrue both for patients and for carers, as modern medical and caring practice recognises and teaches  Your personal experiences are outweighed by known data. 

As to the rest you are quite right but here is what studies  from  around the world show .

Take two elderly people in the same nursing home and of the same age etc. Neither has family or friends  who visit

The staff is caring but overworked and with a lack of time to socialise 

Thus, both are at risk of loneliness and depression Both may  be at risk of feeling that life lacks purpose anymore.

However one has a deep faith and feels a close connection to god  God is with her,  she  speaks  with him, and she believes she will go to heaven  when she dies 

(Or she has a similar positive faith from  another culture )

The other is an atheist  and has no such supporting belief 

The first is never truly alone nor ever really lonely because her god is with her (at the very least in her mind /perception) all day. 

The other has no such companion .

The first will always have a purpose set for her by god  It might be talking to others about god, or a duty to comfort others.

The other, once unable to contribute materially, may think she has no purpose, especially if she is  also not a very spiritual person (Atheists can be spiritual or non spiritual)   

The studies show that the one with faith will live several years longer than the one with out, but ALSO  will maintain a better quality of life, with less depression /anxiety and fewer heath issues .

The y will be happier, have more purpose, and a reason to interact with others, even when that is hard to do.  

Edited by Mr Walker
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I'm getting a few laughs a t some of my posts

These are proven medical and scientific  facts, and are now taught and integrated in modern medicine, psychology, and care giving professions.

  If you are laughing in a scoffing /disbelieving manner, check out the facts for yourself.

  

quote 

(I'd suggest reading the entire article from The Nursing Home Abuse Centre.)

Spiritual care for the elderly is an important part of the aging process. Bereavement and depression can become a sad fact of life for seniors. Religion, faith, and spirituality can help improve physical and emotional health, as well as enhance the overall quality of life.

Faith, Spirituality, Religion, and Aging

As people age, faith, spirituality, and religion can become important parts of life.

While these terms bring similar thoughts to mind, they do not have to be intertwined to give meaning to the lives of seniors. Faith can be linked with trust. Spirituality can be related to connection and religion can mean a belief in a higher power.

Faith and Aging

In a recent survey, senior living referral company Seniorly found that seniors ranked faith as high as health when asked about the most important factors in aging.

Faith can be viewed as having a sense of trust, whether it be in a higher power or in the universe. The benefits of faith in seniors can stem from trusting that things will be okay, even if this has not been proven.

Spirituality and Aging

Spirituality is often referred to as “the breath of life.” It can describe a feeling people get from things that are enjoyable to them — a connected feeling that can be found in spending time with family, being in nature, painting or the arts, and anything that causes people to “light up.”

This changes over time and spiritual activities for seniors may be different than for younger people. For example, walking in nature may no longer be possible as people age but connections might be made in different places, such as birdwatching, for example.

Religion and Aging

For most people, religion means a belief in a higher power. Religion can also be described as a commitment to a common purpose. About 70% of Americans identify as Christian and another 6% as non-Christian, which includes Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or another faith.

Sharing religion can be a powerful community for the aging population, as it offers support when people age and face new joys and sorrows.

 

Religion and Health Among Older Adults

For many seniors, spiritual connection, faith, and being part of a religious community can bring a sense of purpose. These things can also help prevent loneliness, feelings of isolation, and depression.

While there are many benefits to be found through faith, spirituality, and religion, they may also have a negative impact. As with most everything, finding a balance is important.

Psychological Benefits

Many elderly people say that religion is the most important factor in their lives when faced with health problems and life stresses commonly associated with aging.

Studies have shown that seniors who turn to religion as a coping mechanism are less likely to suffer from depression and anxiety.

https://www.nursinghomeabusecenter.com/resources/faith/

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Only going  to make a short comment on your  second paragraph .

Its untrue both for patients and for carers, as modern medical and caring practice recognises and teaches  Your personal experiences are outweighed by known data. 

As to the rest you are quite right but here is what studies  from  around the world show .

Take two elderly people in the same nursing home and of the same age etc. Neither has family or friends  who visit

The staff is caring but overworked and with a lack of time to socialise 

Thus, both are at risk of loneliness and depression Both may  be at risk of feeling that life lacks purpose anymore.

However one has a deep faith and feels a close connection to god  God is with her,  she  speaks  with him, and she believes she will go to heaven  when she dies 

(Or she has a similar positive faith from  another culture )

The other is an atheist  and has no such supporting belief 

The first is never truly alone nor ever really lonely because her god is with her (at the very least in her mind /perception) all day. 

The other has no such companion .

The first will always have a purpose set for her by god  It might be talking to others about god, or a duty to comfort others.

The other, once unable to contribute materially, may think she has no purpose, especially if she is  also not a very spiritual person (Atheists can be spiritual or non spiritual)   

The studies show that the one with faith will live several years longer than the one with out, but ALSO  will maintain a better quality of life, with less depression /anxiety and fewer heath issues .

The y will be happier, have more purpose, and a reason to interact with others, even when that is hard to do.  

I see how much you want to believe this, and even understand your great need to believe this, and I leave you to do what serves you.  
 

Just a final word, there is never any harm in being proactive. My concern for those that are are blinded by faith is they can do harm even though they are well meaning. Always temper your beliefs with good sense too. 

Of course, I truly wish your wife the best.

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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I'm getting a few laughs a t some of my posts

These are proven medical and scientific  facts, and are now taught and integrated in modern medicine, psychology, and care giving professions.

  If you are laughing in a scoffing /disbelieving manner, check out the facts for yourself.

  

quote 

(I'd suggest reading the entire article from The Nursing Home Abuse Centre.)

Spiritual care for the elderly is an important part of the aging process. Bereavement and depression can become a sad fact of life for seniors. Religion, faith, and spirituality can help improve physical and emotional health, as well as enhance the overall quality of life.

Faith, Spirituality, Religion, and Aging

As people age, faith, spirituality, and religion can become important parts of life.

While these terms bring similar thoughts to mind, they do not have to be intertwined to give meaning to the lives of seniors. Faith can be linked with trust. Spirituality can be related to connection and religion can mean a belief in a higher power.

Faith and Aging

In a recent survey, senior living referral company Seniorly found that seniors ranked faith as high as health when asked about the most important factors in aging.

Faith can be viewed as having a sense of trust, whether it be in a higher power or in the universe. The benefits of faith in seniors can stem from trusting that things will be okay, even if this has not been proven.

Spirituality and Aging

Spirituality is often referred to as “the breath of life.” It can describe a feeling people get from things that are enjoyable to them — a connected feeling that can be found in spending time with family, being in nature, painting or the arts, and anything that causes people to “light up.”

This changes over time and spiritual activities for seniors may be different than for younger people. For example, walking in nature may no longer be possible as people age but connections might be made in different places, such as birdwatching, for example.

Religion and Aging

For most people, religion means a belief in a higher power. Religion can also be described as a commitment to a common purpose. About 70% of Americans identify as Christian and another 6% as non-Christian, which includes Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or another faith.

Sharing religion can be a powerful community for the aging population, as it offers support when people age and face new joys and sorrows.

 

Religion and Health Among Older Adults

For many seniors, spiritual connection, faith, and being part of a religious community can bring a sense of purpose. These things can also help prevent loneliness, feelings of isolation, and depression.

While there are many benefits to be found through faith, spirituality, and religion, they may also have a negative impact. As with most everything, finding a balance is important.

Psychological Benefits

Many elderly people say that religion is the most important factor in their lives when faced with health problems and life stresses commonly associated with aging.

Studies have shown that seniors who turn to religion as a coping mechanism are less likely to suffer from depression and anxiety.

https://www.nursinghomeabusecenter.com/resources/faith/

 

Indeed going to church can be a support system, but one must go to church, nurture the friendships and be a part of the church community over and  beyond emails and phone calls, it isn’t enough. 
 

Being isolated is what contributes to depression, having nothing to look forward to, nothing to do but the same old same old, one becomes unmotivated to change or do or try anything. Losing touch and not engaging with life is not good for the human brain. Even, just going outside can help. 

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28 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Indeed going to church can be a support system, but one must go to church, nurture the friendships and be a part of the church community over and  beyond emails and phone calls, it isn’t enough. 
 

Being isolated is what contributes to depression, having nothing to look forward to, nothing to do but the same old same old, one becomes unmotivated to change or do or try anything. Losing touch and not engaging with life is not good for the human brain. Even, just going outside can help. 

All true.

But having a (real or imaginary) friend, in "god,"  provides a bonus on top of all that, 

To such people, god is always there and available for comfort, company, or conversation,  in the middle of the night  ,when alone, or afraid. 

That impacts significantly, in a positive way, on their physical and psychological/emotional health.

And one doesn't have to go to church at all.

Having a positive spiritual belief or individual relationship with "god" (any positive form of higher power)  has the same positive effects. 

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8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I'm getting a few laughs a t some of my posts

These are proven medical and scientific  facts, and are now taught and integrated in modern medicine, psychology, and care giving professions.

  If you are laughing in a scoffing /disbelieving manner, check out the facts for yourself.

Dear Mr W,

Speaking only for myself as a bestower of a laugh emoji, the many fatal difficulties with your googledumps of "proven medical and scientific facts" have been pointed out to you again and again, by a variety of different posters, over the course of years. And none of it makes a dent.

@Sherapy rightly infers, IMO, some need-to-believe that specifically religious activity and adherence to a religion adds something to the undisputed benefits of maintaining a social life and having something to care about (better yet, somebody). Nor does anybody deny that many religions promote moderation in diet, alcohol consumption and avoidance of risky behaviors of whatever sort.

From the topic perspective, being on the right side of some of these issues counts against "the harm done by religion." Being right, even being right for the wrong reasons, counts for something.

On the other hand, claiming that some of the benefits of healthy living accrue only to the godly is, on its face, bad health advice. Bad health advice is harm (even more obvious these days than usual, as people ingest horse dewormer medicine to ward off covid).

If somebody has a religious practice or believes in the supernatural, then that's peachy. Either way, if changes in diet, exxercise, alcohol consumption, etc. are indicated, then people don't need to wait around for divine intervention. Making needed changes is a good thing in and of itself; just get it done.

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When someone starts blaming the spoon... 

Quote
The allegory of the long spoons is a parable that shows the difference between heaven and hell by means of people forced to eat with long spoons. ... In heaven, the diners feed one another across the table and are sated. The story can encourage people to be kind to each other.

~

 

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15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry but ,when weighing up the harm or benefit of both religious affiliation and  spirituality, the medical benefits of both must be counted quite seriously .

There is plenty of opportunity for other  discussions of a political social or economic  nature, on how religions have affected  first nation's people 

To me they seem a bit irrelevant, given that religion was just one part of the conquering culture but an integrated part   which can't be separated out.   However i appreciate that the  psychological effects of dispossession and discrimination have done great physical and psychological harm to many of them.  Other have done very well in the modern culture and society. 

Eg native people who enjoy  the r scientific benefits of western civilization today also paid the  cost of colonialism and the total transformation of their cultures   Modern representatives  cant really go back to a traditional way of life in a modern society without giving up most of the medical and scientific benefits of modern  counties 

and, in fact, a positive spiritual life and religious affiliation  is just as real and powerful as the effects of dispossession.

Sometimes it provides a counter to the negative effects, either through traditional spirituality or adherence to a christian or other form  

I cant help thinking that some people just don't want to know, or hear about, the powerful benefits of a positive faith or religious commitment  (to any belief system) 

Yet if you think about first nation's peoples before colonial contact,  it was a mainstay of their own lives 

Hi Walker

I want to hear what Doug has to say as this thread is about his observations and not your protestations.

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19 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Walker

I want to hear what Doug has to say as this thread is about his observations and not your protestations.

I agree--he never shuts up about himself or his views.

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On 9/6/2021 at 7:43 AM, Doug1066 said:

From La Civita Cattoloica, a Vatican publication:

“(The Jewish nation) does not work, but traffics in the property and the work of others, it does not produce, but lives and grows fat with the products of the arts and industry of the nations that give it refuge.  It is the giant octopus that with its over-sized tentacles envelops everything.  It has its stomach in the banks…and its suction cups everywhere:  its contracts and monopolies, in credit unions and banks, in shipping and in the railroads, in the town treasuries and in state finance.  It represents the kingdom of capital…the aristocracy of gold…it reigns unopposed.”  (1893)

 

That sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me.  Jeez!

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Just now, Nuclear Wessel said:

I agree--he never shuts up about himself or his views.

I just put Walker & Sherapy on ignore and this thread is so much easier to read now.

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13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

All true.

But having a (real or imaginary) friend, in "god,"  provides a bonus on top of all that, 

To such people, god is always there and available for comfort, company, or conversation,  in the middle of the night  ,when alone, or afraid. 

That impacts significantly, in a positive way, on their physical and psychological/emotional health.

And one doesn't have to go to church at all.

Having a positive spiritual belief or individual relationship with "god" (any positive form of higher power)  has the same positive effects. 


 

I have no dispute with faith in god being a good way for a person to self comfort and cope at times, as long as at the same time one is doing the things that promote their well being, just having faith in and of itself is limited, we  can’t ignore the importance of our interactions with each other when we are trying to understand how our brains and bodies function their  best. We would strive to create an environment where one is having joy and fun and are challenging ourselves to stretch beyond our comfort zone especially, for one who is chronically ill. The “just-so” stories, sound great in fantasy, but in real time people need much more. It is about the worst thing one can do is deprive or discourage a human being of consistent social interaction and engagement with others it causes a buildup of anxiety and no way to release it, one has to get creative when it comes to the stressors of life with the chronically ill, going to church would be better than reading books or emails, watching television day in and day out and faith in god is not a replacement for human socialization needs and any self comfort would not be needed as a crutch if ones needs are being met holistically. Ones aim is to know and have our Patient's functioning close to their happiness set point.  
 

Even In the top notch care facilities, including memory care (the ones that charge 10 grand a month) activities and getting out and social interaction are a regular daily part of life, some do volunteer work too. Many times, I have accompanied a client to their volunteer gig. Remeber I work with a lot of Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s clients. Humans need socialization the same way they need to eat and exercise etc.. As a  private one on one caregiver getting my clients out, to interact with life and people is done daily, even if it is just pushing a person around the block in their wheelchair, stopping and talking to neighbors. It is the joy and delight of my work to open up ways to have fun regardless, of ones circumstances. For me, seeing the joy and aliveness of a person is truly beautiful and rewarding for all involved. 
Remember, preferring isolation as a lifestyle, not wanting to go anywhere, not wanting to be around anyone, sitting in the same spot day in and day out, doing the same things with nothing new or novel or anything to look forward too, not wanting kindness or compassion are red flags for depression in-the elderly or something deeper maybe grief etc. , a big reason for social support is to have someone who is non judgmental, who is willing to listen with empathy and act  as a sounding board to give love, kindness, compassion, and empathy to discuss and apply ways to alleviate what ever is preventing one from full quality of life, living in ones head or imagination with no environmental or social feedback or stimulation is not optimum for living ones best life, losing touch with life is not what is best for a persons over all well being or their brain functioning. 

Once again, all the best to your wife. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I just put Walker & Sherapy on ignore and this thread is so much easier to read now.

Sherapy has a habit of fueling Walkers ego. Giving him the attention he desires. 

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