Did Ancient People Use Acid to Shape Stone?

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, Harte said:

Absolutely, It's not as if frontiersmen would make something like that up.

They were a serious folk.

Harte

Very much so! It's not like they made stuff up...

[Gaden]

37 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Very much so! It's not like they made stuff up...

Trippy

 

[Gaden]

5 hours ago, Harte said:

The same "they" that say there's a tradition among the indigenous of using the plants that birds use to soften stone.

It's a big, inclusive "they."

They's a lot of them.

Harte

They sure is.

[Abramelin]

23 hours ago, Trelane said:

So it's "no" to acid use, laser beams, soft romantic music etc?

It probably is "yes" to acid use, but not as in transforming complete boulders into soft, malleable clay.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Very much so! It's not like they made stuff up...

So Hiram Bingham made stuff up? Why would he, btw.?

Quote from the link I provided earlier:

"(...) Hiram Bingham (1875-1956), the re-discoverer of Machu Piccu, learned from and reported the strange story of the Andean woodpecker and his “rock softening” plant, which in folklore is occasionally identified with a bush from the high Andean vegetation, Ephedra andina or with a larger flower, Ageratina (Eupatorium) cuzcoensis. Scientific fact is that neither the skill of the Andean woodpecker in using rock softening plant sap nor the rock softening ability of plant sap themselves could be confirmed.

But something may still be true in this legend, that “plant matter mixed to other components soften stones” because it is so deeply rooted in Andean folklore."

 

[Swede]

12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I did.

And you apparently found his unsupported speculation to be convincing?

.

[Abramelin]

22 minutes ago, Swede said:

And you apparently found his unsupported speculation to be convincing?

.

Yes.

It's not speculation, he experimented.

Edited to add:

Apparently his paper didn't convince you.

Where, according to you, did this guy (an electro-chemist and professor as far as I could gather), go wrong?

http://www.helmut-tributsch.it/person/vita-cv/

Edited September 11, 2021 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

@astrobeing

I'd like you to read this paper:

https://www.siftdesk.org/article-details/On-the-reddish-glittery-mud-the-Inca-used-for-perfecting-their-stone-masonry/264

You studied electro-chemistry, so I hope you are willing to give us your educated opinion.

Thanks in advance.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

But something may still be true in this legend, that “plant matter mixed to other components soften stones” because it is so deeply rooted in Andean folklore."

 

I'd like to read some links to this "Andean folklore".

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

So Hiram Bingham made stuff up? Why would he, btw.?

Quote from the link I provided earlier:

"(...) Hiram Bingham (1875-1956), the re-discoverer of Machu Piccu, learned from and reported the strange story of the Andean woodpecker and his “rock softening” plant, which in folklore is occasionally identified with a bush from the high Andean vegetation, Ephedra andina or with a larger flower, Ageratina (Eupatorium) cuzcoensis. Scientific fact is that neither the skill of the Andean woodpecker in using rock softening plant sap nor the rock softening ability of plant sap themselves could be confirmed.

But something may still be true in this legend, that “plant matter mixed to other components soften stones” because it is so deeply rooted in Andean folklore."

 

I wasn't commenting bird spit I was referring to Harte's earlier comment:

Quote

Absolutely, It's not as if frontiersmen would make something like that up.

They were a serious folk.

Harte

with a bit of

[Windowpane]

Caochyll ...

[Harte]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

So Hiram Bingham made stuff up? Why would he, btw.?

Quote from the link I provided earlier:

"(...) Hiram Bingham (1875-1956), the re-discoverer of Machu Piccu, learned from and reported the strange story of the Andean woodpecker and his “rock softening” plant, which in folklore is occasionally identified with a bush from the high Andean vegetation, Ephedra andina or with a larger flower, Ageratina (Eupatorium) cuzcoensis. Scientific fact is that neither the skill of the Andean woodpecker in using rock softening plant sap nor the rock softening ability of plant sap themselves could be confirmed.

But something may still be true in this legend, that “plant matter mixed to other components soften stones” because it is so deeply rooted in Andean folklore."

You rule out mistaken natives that see ordinary cliff face nests and birds carrying plants to nest with.

Harte

[WVK]

Stone processing @23:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9J_ivMwTxc

 

[Abramelin]

9 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Caochyll ...

Yeah, that name. But, if it truelly exists, under what Latin/English name do we know it?

[Windowpane]

50 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, that name. But, if it truelly exists, under what Latin/English name do we know it?

No idea.

I just found the mention ...

[Abramelin]

On 9/6/2021 at 1:43 PM, Piney said:

No, but the OP started a thread on the same subject when he first joined and was trounced by Hans and Swede. 

Rashore started a thread months ago, and this topic also emerged from that thread:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/345978-17-eerie-and-incredible-unsolved-ancient-mysteries-from-around-the-world/page/10/

 

[Mr Walker]

On 9/6/2021 at 4:04 PM, Kenemet said:

And how did they neutralize the acid afterward?

Now, it IS possible to soften and etch away limestone with vinegar. I've done it.  But it takes a heck of a lot longer than drilling and scraping.

A HECK of a lot longer.  Like... days versus hours.

Good point I was going to post the same 

Of course the ancients had a lot of time and were highly motivated.

You can achieve a lot with some basic knowledge tools and time,  IF your  society is motivated enough to put in the time and resources on a project. 

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Caochyll ...

No idea.

I just found the mention ...

The name itself comes from a psychic reading by one "Anne". No joke. See The Ancient Stones Speak, David Zink p134. The premise of the book is to give a complimentary "psychic reading" for the megalithic sites of the world. You know, to help get a better understanding and insight into ancient history. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Abramelin]

15 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

The name itself comes from a psychic reading by one "Anne". No joke. See The Ancient Stones Speak, David Zink p134. The premise of the book is to give a complimentary "psychic reading" for the megalithic sites of the world. You know, to help get a better understanding and insight into ancient history. 

The quote in the link posted by Windowpane comes from this book:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=OAzQ3zi0b5kC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=caochyll+fawcett&source=bl&ots=rHJqgjOxx3&sig=ACfU3U2v8ds6apG0z62VQXSXNN93ImOg5g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPxuKN1fnyAhUVHuwKHeVJB9gQ6AF6BAgCEAE#v=onepage&q=caochyll fawcett&f=false

 

[Thanos5150]

31 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The quote in the link posted by Windowpane comes from this book:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=OAzQ3zi0b5kC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=caochyll+fawcett&source=bl&ots=rHJqgjOxx3&sig=ACfU3U2v8ds6apG0z62VQXSXNN93ImOg5g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPxuKN1fnyAhUVHuwKHeVJB9gQ6AF6BAgCEAE#v=onepage&q=caochyll fawcett&f=false

 

I have the primary source. Lots of nice pictures. Seemed like a yard sale dollar well spent at the time until I started reading it. Ah, the 70's. Good times.  

[Abramelin]

21 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

I have the primary source. Lots of nice pictures. Seemed like a yard sale dollar well spent at the time until I started reading it. Ah, the 70's. Good times.  

Heh, I am rereading  for the x-th time, The People of the Secret by Ernest Scott ( a pseudonym). I bought it in 1997 for a few guilders in a secondhand bookshop. Now it costs close to 100 dollars on Amazon!

Back on topic: I have been trying to find a map showing the Pyrene river in the Chuncho country in Peru; it is the river where the red leafed plant grew according to Brian Fawcett in his "Expedition Fawcett".

I remember having posted an old map showing the river, about a decade ago. Today no luck.

[Trelane]

I'm simply going to say  "no".

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, Trelane said:

I'm simply going to say  "no".

What is really frustrating is, that I lived in Peru for half a year, in Arequipa in 1991/2, and must have been living within reach of that river.

Btw., the alternative spelling of the river (on the map I found long ago) is 'Pirene'.

 

[Swede]

•  

On 9/11/2021 at 2:13 PM, Abramelin said:

Yes.

It's not speculation, he experimented.

Edited to add:

Apparently his paper didn't convince you.

Where, according to you, did this guy (an electro-chemist and professor as far as I could gather), go wrong?

1)      No “real world” experiments.

2)      A number of factors to consider:

• ·         First, his entire argument is conjecture.
• ·         He takes quite a number of liberties with his “interpretation” of the Spanish chronicles.
• ·         His brief article is laden with “could haves”.
• ·         He openly acknowledges that actual archaeological research would be needed to confirm his speculations.
• ·         He openly acknowledges that real world experimentation would be needed to confirm his speculations.
• ·         While acknowledging that the transport and application of his purported highly acidic mud presents logistical problems, he offers no satisfactory solution to these problems nor how such solutions would manifest themselves in the archaeological record.
• ·         Etc., etc.

Again, the author is dealing with speculations that are lacking in credible supportive data.

Edit: Format.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Swede

[Abramelin]

You are right Swede: I have mixed up in my memory what this guy wrote with what I read a decade ago.

Nevertheless, I still think he's on to something.

He doesn't come over as some nincompoop phantisizing about 'Ancient Aliens' or some ancient and unknown super civilization.

He suggests possible techniques.

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Abramelin