Swede Posted September 16, 2021 #151 Share Posted September 16, 2021 On 9/15/2021 at 12:42 PM, Abramelin said: Now, back to the paper/article posted before: https://www.siftdesk.org/article-details/On-the-reddish-glittery-mud-the-Inca-used-for-perfecting-their-stone-masonry/264 Has anybody comments about the chemistry involved? I am kind of done reading 'this isn't a 'real paper', but just an article. This article is about chemistry. @Swede @Thanos5150 @Kenemet @Oniomancer anyone: show us all where the guy went wrong, chemically speaking. https://roseannechambers.com/ancient-metals-and-mines-part-2/ https://oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-2 https://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2008a/080129VaughnMine.html https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322864040_Mining_macro-regional_interaction_and_ritual_practices_in_the_South-central_Andes_The_first_evidence_for_turquoise_exploitation_from_the_Late_Prehispanic_and_Inca_periods_in_North-western_Argentina_Cu https://www.mindat.org/loc-359208.html . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSot Posted September 17, 2021 #152 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Just a thought, but since the change over seems to have happened during construction, might it be something more straightforward? The megalithic structures may have been larger and more durable, but they'd have also been more difficult to repair. Makes sense to be to shift to a lighter, less durable, but more easily repairable construction style. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 17, 2021 #153 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, Abramelin said: The mixture or agent was made on the spot. And? What does that have to do with this: Things to consider as well is the amount of this product needed would have been many tons-an entire industry of its own. Then there are the safety hazards of extracting, processing, transporting, and using such a caustic material. And how is it we find the Inca mines and quarries for the stone but not the magic clay? Quote And 'many tons' must be a huge exaggaration. To who? One gallon of water = 8.34lbs. 239.8 gallons equals one ton. For sake of argument we'll assume one bucket of magic mud equals one gallon of water. Every block has 6 sides so lets say the average block required just two 8.34lb buckets of mud. Let's take just a sample of 2,000 of the largest blocks from Sacsayhuaman. So 4,000 buckets at 8.34lbs each equals 33,360lbs. Divide that by 2,000 (one ton) = 16.8 tons. I think this qualifies as "many tons" don't you? For just 2,000 blocks at one site which in reality is more like double or triple that not even factoring in all of the stone working at all of the sites that needed this magic mud across the Inca Empire. Quote The stuff was applied only to the surfaces of the worked stone to make that surface more malleable. And? Blocks have six sides that need to be shaped which multiple coats would need to be applied. When you use solvent of any kind it dissolves its target becoming diluted with that substance and looses its efficacy. How much of say the sides of a block would need to be removed to get it to a flat surface able to be mated with another block? 6 cm ? 12 cm? One coat would soften how much of the surface- one millimeter? Two? Scrape it away and do it again. Scrape it away and do it again. Instead of getting caught up in theoretical chemistry maybe just start with common sense first and if it passes those test then go from there. Edited September 17, 2021 by Thanos5150 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted September 18, 2021 Author #154 Share Posted September 18, 2021 The pattern of stone blocks in the walls of ancient Inca construction, particularly those at Machu Picchu, are not random, but seem to be systematic. The patterns seem to make no sense if each stone block was cut to fit into its particular place in the wall. The patterns do, however, seem to make sense if you consider that they might have been the result of the method I propose in this essay. http://www.paulandellen.com/essays/essay165.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted September 18, 2021 #155 Share Posted September 18, 2021 42 minutes ago, WVK said: The pattern of stone blocks in the walls of ancient Inca construction, particularly those at Machu Picchu, are not random, but seem to be systematic. The patterns seem to make no sense if each stone block was cut to fit into its particular place in the wall. The patterns do, however, seem to make sense if you consider that they might have been the result of the method I propose in this essay. http://www.paulandellen.com/essays/essay165.htm Still,.....no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 18, 2021 #156 Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Trelane said: Still,.....no What if he threw in one of these: Would it at least get you to a maybe? Edited September 18, 2021 by Thanos5150 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted September 18, 2021 #157 Share Posted September 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: What if he threw in one of these: Would it at least get you to a maybe? Hmmmmm, you might just get me with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 19, 2021 #158 Share Posted September 19, 2021 8 hours ago, Trelane said: Hmmmmm, you might just get me with that. Did I mention it also comes with "a prestigious certificate of Five-year membership from Gavin Publishers"? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DodgyDaoist Posted September 19, 2021 #159 Share Posted September 19, 2021 On 9/16/2021 at 8:07 PM, Abramelin said: The mixture or agent was made on the spot. And 'many tons' must be a huge exaggaration. The stuff was applied only to the surfaces of the worked stone to make that surface more malleable. This is an extract from a paper in 1981 on making of cements from plant extracts with a look towards the Pre-Incan's. If one is able to make cement by dissolving of rocks, one should be able to soften a particular surface area that could be worked. https://www.geopolymer.org/wp-content/uploads/CemPlant.pdf Another very interesting article on the other side of the world regarding Egyptian limestone concrete casting https://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-3-the-formula-the-invention-of-stone/ And one on Roman geopolymer concrete https://www.instructables.com/Roman-Geopolymer-Concrete-Recipe/ IMHO, maybe we need to rethink the building techniques employed to build some of the megalithic sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 19, 2021 #160 Share Posted September 19, 2021 May the gods have mercy upon your poor soul... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted September 19, 2021 Author #161 Share Posted September 19, 2021 On 9/5/2021 at 6:15 PM, jaylemurph said: I mean, the idea works once you brutally dismember Ockham’s razor… —Jaylemurph Can Ockham explain how the walls of Sasahuaman were constructed? If (big if) they could make concrete then each block could be cast in place one next and on top of another using forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted September 19, 2021 #162 Share Posted September 19, 2021 21 minutes ago, WVK said: If (big if) they could make concrete then each block could be cast in place one next and on top of another using forms. Where are the remnants of these processes then? They would have to have an industrial area where these jobs were performed. Where are the forms? Making concrete is a pretty complex operation. There is no way they produced the amount needed to construct what is there without leaving any trace of the technology needed for such structures. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 19, 2021 #163 Share Posted September 19, 2021 1 hour ago, WVK said: Can Ockham explain how the walls of Sasahuaman were constructed? If (big if) they could make concrete then each block could be cast in place one next and on top of another using forms. I am talking from memory now, but I think I remember the Spanish conquistadors were there when the Quechua (the Inca were their leaders, and spoke a different language amongst themselves) were still busy building parts of Saqsayhuaman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted September 19, 2021 #164 Share Posted September 19, 2021 1 hour ago, WVK said: Can Ockham explain how the walls of Sasahuaman were constructed? I doubt it, but you completely misunderstand my point. Probably deliberately. —Jaylemurph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 19, 2021 #165 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Abramelin said: I am talking from memory now, but I think I remember the Spanish conquistadors were there when the Quechua (the Inca were their leaders, and spoke a different language amongst themselves) were still busy building parts of Saqsayhuaman. Too late to edit. If the conquistadors were present during the building of - part of - Saqsayhuaman, wouldn't they have recorded any odd or weird technique used to build these walls? That's why I suggested that any stuff that may have been fabricated to soften the prepared rough edges, or added tó those edges was made in minute quantities... on the spot. So no big jars containing many gallons of some dangerous liquid near the construction, no, just a tiny cup. Edited to add: This technique may have gone unnoticed by the conquistadors. And maybe not even intentionally by the builders. Edited September 19, 2021 by Abramelin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted September 19, 2021 Author #166 Share Posted September 19, 2021 1 hour ago, jaylemurph said: I doubt it, but you completely misunderstand my point. Probably deliberately. —Jaylemurph No, not deliberately. Just seeking the simplest explanation which, so far,has proven elusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted September 19, 2021 #167 Share Posted September 19, 2021 8 minutes ago, WVK said: No, not deliberately. Just seeking the simplest explanation which, so far,has proven elusive. So you’re simultaneously seeking the simplest explanation whilst rejecting what is by far the simplest explanation? Interesting. Do… do you understand what “simple” means? I do not think that word means what you think it means. —Jaylemurph 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaden Posted September 19, 2021 #168 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, DodgyDaoist said: This is an extract from a paper in 1981 on making of cements from plant extracts with a look towards the Pre-Incan's. If one is able to make cement by dissolving of rocks, one should be able to soften a particular surface area that could be worked. https://www.geopolymer.org/wp-content/uploads/CemPlant.pdf Another very interesting article on the other side of the world regarding Egyptian limestone concrete casting https://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-3-the-formula-the-invention-of-stone/ And one on Roman geopolymer concrete https://www.instructables.com/Roman-Geopolymer-Concrete-Recipe/ IMHO, maybe we need to rethink the building techniques employed to build some of the megalithic sites. If the Egyptians had used a geopolymer, why aren't the stone more consistently shaped? Why are the facets so uneven and irregular? If you were to make a form in order to pour a stone, wouldn't you build it with straight sides? Why do some of the stones show the lines created by breaking them apart as in the one directly behind the man's head and the next four stones in that row as well as others? Directly to this man's right is either an unfinished saw cut, or a very thin stone, neither of which would be present if the builders had used a geopolymer. And what do we make of the Maurier Papyrus? What do we make of the quarries next to the Pyramids? Why is there obvious quarrying if the stones were poured? And why would you believe the author of the paper you submitted rather than geologists who all agree that the stones are natural? And, yes, I did read where the author said geologists were full of it (my paraphrase), but again, why believe him? Edited September 19, 2021 by Gaden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted September 19, 2021 #169 Share Posted September 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gaden said: Directly to this man's right is either an unfinished saw cut, or a very thin stone, neither of which would be present if the builders had used a geo polymer. That's probably mortar. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaden Posted September 19, 2021 #170 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Harte said: That's probably mortar. Harte I considered that, but, I don't think there would be grooves next to it. Edited September 19, 2021 by Gaden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted September 19, 2021 #171 Share Posted September 19, 2021 6 minutes ago, Gaden said: I considered that, but, I don't think there would be grooves next to it. Look at the line of mortar just above this guy's head. By the way, this is another example of stones that certainly weren't "poured." Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted September 21, 2021 Author #172 Share Posted September 21, 2021 In this one, Dr. Miano gets two questions about ancient polygonal masonry, and the inevitable questions about the great Inca fortress of Sacsayhuaman. How was it built? An interview with architect Vincent Lee sheds some light on the issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5AplOCegMA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 21, 2021 #173 Share Posted September 21, 2021 On 9/19/2021 at 5:09 AM, DodgyDaoist said: And one on Roman geopolymer concrete https://www.instructables.com/Roman-Geopolymer-Concrete-Recipe/ IMHO, maybe we need to rethink the building techniques employed to build some of the megalithic sites. Part of the Giza geopolymer factory: It shouldn't even have to be said, none of it should have to, but no they were not poured in situ as Davidovits claims-the archeological equivalent of the flat earth "theory". So in reality to make geopolymer blocks means they would cut the limestone into blocks, remove the blocks and detritus from making the blocks to the "stone crushing palace", somehow crush it all up then reconstitute it into thousands of molds at a time, all different sizes mind you, where they sat at the block curing fields for 30-60 days. To keep the work flowing at any given time there would be thousands of these molds in the curing fields all getting rotated out day after day. All to make fake blocks indistinguishable from the real blocks they quarried in the first place, right down to the chisel marks, which they had to move no different than the real blocks anyways. And what of the Merer Diary diary which speaks of loading and transporting bags of concrete limestone blocks from the Tura quarries to Giza? So they quarried blocks to crush them up and make new blocks no different than the ones they just quarried right down to the chisel marks all over them then loaded them on to boats and hauled them to their location from the port no different than if they just took the quarried blocks instead? Regardless of whatever science he claims there to be to support this idea, the divide between Davidovits' claims and the common sense application of it, i.e. the use of molds, installation and removal, pulverizing the stone, etc., is infinitely absurd and in reality requires an even greater effort than it claims to avoid. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 21, 2021 #174 Share Posted September 21, 2021 On 9/19/2021 at 3:05 PM, Gaden said: I considered that, but, I don't think there would be grooves next to it. It's mortar. You can see in just this photo several other examples as well. It is estimated over 500,000 tons of mortar were used in just G1 alone being slathered and slapped liberally between countless blocks and gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 21, 2021 #175 Share Posted September 21, 2021 On 9/20/2021 at 12:23 AM, Harte said: Look at the line of mortar just above this guy's head. By the way, this is another example of stones that certainly weren't "poured." Harte Talking from memory again, but I think it was the presence of fossilized molluscs in the building stones of the GP that contradicted the idea that those stones could have been "poured". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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