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WVK

Did Ancient People Use Acid to Shape Stone?

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Abramelin

The next images are of walls from another place, and built thousands of years before the Incan walls:

HTS1.jpgHTS2.jpgHTS3.jpg

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Harte

Probably Hittite.

The Mycenaeans were using polygonal masonry around the same time.

Harte

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Tom1200

Could advocates of the 'stone softening' theory clarify a simple point for me?  How are you using the word 'dissolve'?

Dissolving is a physical change.  A solid (the solute) dissolves into a suitable liquid (the solvent) to create a mixture (the solution).  This change is reversible - remove the solvent and the solute recombines into a solid.  This new solid might not be physically identical to the original - it might be powdery or crystalline, weaker or tougher than before - but it is chemically identical.

Adding acid to most things results in a chemical reaction.  This is not a reversible change - new substances are formed.  Adding acid to limestone / marble / chalk (they're all the same stuff - calcium carbonate) produces carbon dioxide gas and a calcium salt (depending on the acid used - hydrochloric acid would create calcium chloride).  So you can't simply dissolve rock with acid, have it flow into shape, and re-solidify it by removing the acid.  That doesn't happen.

As for the application of heat?  Yes, stone will melt if it reaches its melting point, and will then flow under gravity.  But this doesn't explain the complex polygonal shapes.  The semi-molten material would surely flow forward as much as downwards into existing gaps?  And the upper surface would form a smooth horizontal level, not the angles and shapes we actually see.

Ultimately - a civilisation that could shift 100-tonne stones could surely also shape them to fit together?  Perhaps they used molten something to create moulds, so they could get the angles and lengths precise before the final lift into position.  Perhaps that's the reason for the vitrification visible on some surfaces?

 

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Nobu
8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The next images are of walls from another place, and built thousands of years before the Incan walls:

HTS1.jpgHTS2.jpgHTS3.jpg

Amazing photos. Thanks

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Kenemet
10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You are right Swede: I have mixed up in my memory what this guy wrote with what I read a decade ago.

Nevertheless, I still think he's on to something.

He doesn't come over as some nincompoop phantisizing about 'Ancient Aliens' or some ancient and unknown super civilization.

He suggests possible techniques.

If they could shape stones, why didn't they shape them better?

They're joined (as everyone says) on one side only; the other is not as well fitted, with pebbles and small rocks fitted in to make things work.  Now, if you were doing the work manually, it makes more sense... they're not that accurate and the walls need to go up.  They're just walls and not elaborate columns like they have in the Egyptian temples where you need to be precise.

But if you can soften stone, then it's a matter of a short time to rub and scrape a bottom till it's perfect and fits together like modern construction materials do.

So if they had that kind of process (like our modern polymers) then why are no two rocks the same size and shape and why are no two fitted the same?  They weren't making mosaics.

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Kenemet
On 9/11/2021 at 4:26 AM, Windowpane said:

 

I think (as pointed out in the preceding post) that this is a reputable academic journal.

There's no mention of Gavin Publishers here.

(Not really on topic, but there are plenty of scam publishers about, so it's always as well to check  ...  A related subject is discussed here.)

 

It's a pretty bad paper, though.  It wouldn't pass in any of the classes I took.

And did you look up the publisher's address?  it's being run out of someone's house.  Seriously.  A house in a housing development.  Take a gander at it on Google maps.

 

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Abramelin
3 hours ago, Nobu said:

Amazing photos. Thanks

They are the walls of Hattusa, the capital of the Hittites in Anatolia.

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Windowpane
2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It's a pretty bad paper, though.  It wouldn't pass in any of the classes I took.

I'm not a scientist, but I think I would have expected a lot more in the way of scientific discussion.  

 

Quote

And did you look up the publisher's address?  it's being run out of someone's house.  Seriously.  A house in a housing development.  Take a gander at it on Google maps.

I did!  I've been admiring the balcony, and wondering how it could ever be used, seeing as there's no apparent access to it.

Presumably this wondrous piece of architecture is paid for by this sort of exercise ...

 

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Tom1200
2 hours ago, Windowpane said:

I've been admiring the balcony, and wondering how it could ever be used, seeing as there's no apparent access to it.  Presumably this wondrous piece of architecture is paid for by this sort of exercise ...

You're just jealous because you don't have "a prestigious certificate of Five-year membership from Gavin Publishers."

I'll email you a scan of mine, but it will only look authentic if your printer takes toilet paper.

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Windowpane
1 hour ago, Tom1200 said:

You're just jealous because you don't have "a prestigious certificate of Five-year membership from Gavin Publishers."

I'll email you a scan of mine, but it will only look authentic if your printer takes toilet paper.

 

If I spent the 5-year membership fee of $15,000 on a top-notch 3D printer, I could probably run off my own copy of the house and balcony (with balcony access, moreover) ... and could probably run off my own prestigious certificates for, oh, just about anything I could think of.  I could do the same for you, in return for a prestigious 10-year membership fee (favourable rates applied) ...

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Thanos5150
18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The next images are of walls from another place, and built thousands of years before the Incan walls:

They are all Hittite. The two on the left are from Alacahöyük, the one on the right is Hattusa. Ancient cyclopean masonry outside of the new world is ubiquitous.

A few examples. Greece: 

andes5%20delphi.jpg

s5ascv2-rgb.jpg

 

Italy:

Cyclopean-Ruins-Alba-Fucens-3.jpg

Cyclopean-Ruins-San-Felice-Circeo-3.jpg

 

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Abramelin
11 hours ago, Kenemet said:

So if they had that kind of process (like our modern polymers) then why are no two rocks the same size and shape and why are no two fitted the same?  They weren't making mosaics.

Because building a wall using these kind of irregular, polygonal boulders prevents it from collapsing during an earthquake?

 

Edited by Abramelin
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Abramelin
8 hours ago, Windowpane said:

I'm not a scientist, but I think I would have expected a lot more in the way of scientific discussion.  

Thank you.

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Abramelin
2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

They are all Hittite. The two on the left are from Alacahöyük, the one on the right is Hattusa.

All I know is that the photo's I posted were taken at Hattusa. Like I said before, btw.

Anyway, here a short video about Hattusa:

 

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Gaden
1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Because building a wall using these kind of irregular, polygonal boulders prevents it from collapsing during an earthquake?

 

Yes, they would, but the irregular shapes would be due to the original shapes of the rocks chosen. If they could actually soften and shape stone, they wouldn't be limited by a stone's shape, they could mold it to whatever they desired. Wouldn't it be more efficient to use a regular, repeatable, interlocking design? 

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Swede
13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It's a pretty bad paper, though.  It wouldn't pass in any of the classes I took.

And did you look up the publisher's address?  it's being run out of someone's house.  Seriously.  A house in a housing development.  Take a gander at it on Google maps.

Yes, it is another pay-to-publish racket. This does not speak well of the author in question but would explain his rather staggering number of claimed publications.

.

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Swede said:

Yes, it is another pay-to-publish racket. This does not speak well of the author in question but would explain his rather staggering number of claimed publications.

.

Peer review is for suckers!

--Jaylemurph

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Abramelin
21 hours ago, Gaden said:

Yes, they would, but the irregular shapes would be due to the original shapes of the rocks chosen. If they could actually soften and shape stone, they wouldn't be limited by a stone's shape, they could mold it to whatever they desired. Wouldn't it be more efficient to use a regular, repeatable, interlocking design? 

I am not defending the idea that rocks could be softened into something like malleable clay. Never did, btw.

That 'something' was added to or done with the surface of the rude formed rocks (formed by pounding with other handheld rocks), thàt I consider a possibility.

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Thanos5150
On 9/13/2021 at 7:49 AM, Thanos5150 said:

Ancient cyclopean masonry outside of the new world is ubiquitous.

The Edo Castle complex of Japan has always been very interesting to me. There are many megalithic polygonal walls employing massive blocks that seem more at home in the ancient world than Medieval times. Don't want to flood the board with too many photos but it is worth looking into further. 

190b59dd149046725967d58c1b95440a.jpg

 

Japan+Day+1-+Tokyo+Imperial+Palace+East+

7883723421fa784ad3e8540d5a482eb2--tokyo-

MORE.

They also used metal I cramps as did several ancient cultures on both sides of the Atlantic:

nakanomon-stonewall-coupler-imperial-pal

 

Also there is the little later Osaka Castle with pretty amazing stonework:

eca238f87a3e0adc05480b1c6482040a.jpg

8607a05d4e3f1562de9f5618ad9ad82f.jpg

osakacastle10.jpg

MORE.

Lot of earthquakes in Japan.....

Edited by Thanos5150
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Abramelin

And all those locations - Japan, Greece, Turkey, Italy - are in areas with regular occuring earthquakes.

Coincidence?

Edited to add:

Are there walls like posted before present in Egypt?

I have no idea, but I guess not.

Edited by Abramelin
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WVK
47 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I am not defending the idea that rocks could be softened into something like malleable clay. Never did, btw.

That 'something' was added to or done with the surface of the rude formed rocks (formed by pounding with other handheld rocks), thàt I consider a possibility.

The stone shows clear signs of pecking with pounders on the visible surfaces. What’s not clear is whether the marks exists on the mating surfaces. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9J_ivMwTxc

 

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Autochthon1990

I mean, don't get me wrong, using caustic materials on the exterior of rocks to style them properly is reasonable, it might give it a shiny surface once you get away the grit and the rocky protrusion, but I don't think it would do what he thinks it will

 

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Abramelin
22 hours ago, Swede said:

Yes, it is another pay-to-publish racket. This does not speak well of the author in question but would explain his rather staggering number of claimed publications.

.

Quoting Windowpane:

"I'm not a scientist, but I think I would have expected a lot more in the way of scientific discussion."

 

Maybe the paper is not of the quality you all expected, but instead of bickering about the quality of the paper, could we all please discuss the idea expressed in the paper?

That would be great, and it could get us somewhere.

Edited by Abramelin

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Autochthon1990 said:

I mean, don't get me wrong, using caustic materials on the exterior of rocks to style them properly is reasonable, it might give it a shiny surface once you get away the grit and the rocky protrusion, but I don't think it would do what he thinks it will

 

"I do not think that word means what you think it means!"

--Jaylemurph

Note: just a reference to The Princess Bride. Not any commentary on posts or posters.

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Swede
1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Quoting Windowpane:

"I'm not a scientist, but I think I would have expected a lot more in the way of scientific discussion."

 

Maybe the paper is not of the quality you all expected, but instead of bickering about the quality of the paper, could we all please discuss the idea expressed in the paper?

That would be great, and it could get us somewhere.

As already addressed, the article (hardly a paper), is wholly based upon unevidenced conjecture. Thus, there is little to discuss.

.

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