SHaYap Posted September 13, 2021 #51 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Mental images are suggestive at best, that's where the over imaginative gets trapped in a labyrinth of their own making. To dwell even deeper into the conundrum of language, no one knows how memory "works" either. ~ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 13, 2021 #52 Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 minute ago, third_eye said: Mental images are suggestive at best, that's where the over imaginative gets trapped in a labyrinth of their own making. To dwell even deeper into the conundrum of language, no one knows how memory "works" either. ~ I thought I just explained that. Google it...I think you will find I'm right....or something.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted September 13, 2021 #53 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Just now, joc said: I thought I just explained that. Google it...I think you will find I'm right....or something.... That's not what this thread is looking for. "retention of cognition" implies space and material. That's why "physicalists" were raised like zombies here. ~ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #54 Share Posted September 13, 2021 https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-1-4419-1428-6_586 Along with other types of cognitive structure, mental models are representations in the human mind of various aspects of an individual’s lifetime experiences. Mental models are internal representations containing meaningful declarative and procedural knowledge that people use to understand specific phenomena. People can construct mental models in order to explain or to simulate problems, events, or future situations in mind, if no sufficient schema is available. A scientific analysis of mental models is very useful to optimize learning processes but depends on some preconditions. For example, an important precondition is an adequate measurable externalization of mental models. Another precondition is consciousness of knowledge which might be relevant for constructing a model. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #55 Share Posted September 13, 2021 The problem I have with the OP is that it is implied that there is no objective reality, which is borderline solipism. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted September 13, 2021 #56 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Behold, the "Rain Man" Quote Savant syndrome is a rare condition in which someone with significant mental disabilities demonstrates certain abilities far in excess of average. The skills that savants excel at are generally related to memory. This may include rapid calculation, artistic ability, map making, or musical ability. https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki Savant syndrome - Wikipedia ~ Back in the good old days, how many of those "touched by god" were revered highly without doubt? ~ 2 minutes ago, XenoFish said: The problem I have with the OP is that it is implied that there is no objective reality, which is borderline solipism. The metaphysical leap of faith surfing the neuron wave... ~ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 13, 2021 #57 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Remember that guy.... ....kept trying to convince everyone he had created a perpetual motion machine? Long time ago... That's what this thread reminds me of.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #58 Share Posted September 13, 2021 17 hours ago, joc said: Do you feel confident enough in your knowledge of the eye to perform eye surgery? I have not studied Eye Surgery at all. That skill would be irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I understand how the Eye works, down to the Neuro Chemical level. The real issue of the Visual Experience happens in the Visual Cortex. The Eye simply sends signals to the Visual Cortex. I also understand the Visual Cortex down to the Chemical level. Science has made great progress with understanding the Neural Correlates of the Visual Experience, but exactly Zero progress with understanding the Conscious Visual Experience itself. Do you understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience? Or maybe your reject it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #59 Share Posted September 13, 2021 10 hours ago, joc said: There is no High Def Display. that is just a term that you are using to describe the visuals that we 'remember' seeing. None of it is real...By the time your retina receives the information and sends it to your brain...and by the time your brain takes that information and decodes it and the neurons start firing and cells are coated with acetylkolene...whatever it is you think you are seeing has already happened man. The High Def Display is your brain regenerating the memory of what you think you saw. Like walking into the closet in the dark and flipping the light on and off. Could be, but it seems to me I'm getting a pretty good real time Representation of the External World. The Representation is a Conscious Experience. The Conscious Visual Experience is how we Detect the External World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 13, 2021 #60 Share Posted September 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said: Do you understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience? Or maybe your reject it? I don't see Consciousness as a Hard Problem. I do see however that it is a Hard Problem for you. You don't understand how Consciousness can be. You are still trying to 'figure it all out'. So you have spent your whole life trying to figure it out. And thus far have not been able to. Can we just cut to the chase here? What you are really getting to in an elaborate way is this ...correct me if I'm wrong: Consciousness cannot be proven to be of the body. Therefore it must come from somewhere else. Enter...God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted September 13, 2021 #61 Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 minute ago, SteveKlinko said: Could be, but it seems to me I'm getting a pretty good real time Representation of the External World. The Representation is a Conscious Experience. The Conscious Visual Experience is how we Detect the External World. No it isn't. Many people born blind are still having a conscious experience. We have other senses than sight alone. Besides, I already told you the answer to your hard problem. You aren't looking for a real answer. So...as I said...cut to the chase about consciousness. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #62 Share Posted September 13, 2021 10 hours ago, XenoFish said: The problem I have with the OP is that it is implied that there is no objective reality, which is borderline solipism. You have to separate the Experience from the Objective Reality. The Experience is how Humans Detect Objective Reality. There always is of course the actual Objective Reality separate from the Experience. But the Experience itself is what I am interested in. How does this Experience happen? That is the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #63 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Just now, SteveKlinko said: You have to separate the Experience from the Objective Reality. The Experience is how Humans Detect Objective Reality. There always is of course the actual Objective Reality separate from the Experience. But the Experience itself is what I am interested in. How does this Experience happen? That is the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience. It's not a problem. It is only your desire to have an answer to a problem that doesn't matter to roughly 99.999% of people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #64 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, joc said: I don't see Consciousness as a Hard Problem. I do see however that it is a Hard Problem for you. You don't understand how Consciousness can be. You are still trying to 'figure it all out'. So you have spent your whole life trying to figure it out. And thus far have not been able to. Can we just cut to the chase here? What you are really getting to in an elaborate way is this ...correct me if I'm wrong: Consciousness cannot be proven to be of the body. Therefore it must come from somewhere else. Enter...God. If you don't understand or reject the Hard Problem of Consciousness then of course the OP will be meaningless to you. The OP is directly about the Hard Problem of Consciousness. I am not here to teach the Hard Problem to you. A good source is David Chalmers writings where he coins the term and explains the Hard Problem. We are at a Stalemate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #65 Share Posted September 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, joc said: No it isn't. Many people born blind are still having a conscious experience. We have other senses than sight alone. Besides, I already told you the answer to your hard problem. You aren't looking for a real answer. So...as I said...cut to the chase about consciousness. I am talking specifically about the Conscious Visual Experience here. It is sensibly assumed that we are talking about the Normal non-degenerate Visual Experience. I'm cutting to the chase about the Conscious Visual Experience. You are the one mixing up other Conscious aspects into the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #66 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, XenoFish said: It's not a problem. It is only your desire to have an answer to a problem that doesn't matter to roughly 99.999% of people. It's not a problem then, because only a small number of people are interested in the problem? That's some very strange logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #67 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Just now, SteveKlinko said: It's not a problem then, because only a small number of people are interested in the problem? That's some very strange logic. Do you question your Reality on a minute to minute bases? I don't. Neither do I need to understand how my visual cortex works in order to perceive the world. Just in case you don't know what that is. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482504/#:~:text=The primary purpose of the,to be analyzed and utilized. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted September 13, 2021 #68 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Neurons. Billions of them in a human brain. Is any one of them conscious? (just wondering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted September 13, 2021 #69 Share Posted September 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, lightly said: Neurons. Billions of them in a human brain. Is any one of them conscious? (just wondering) Does a single brick constitute a wall? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #70 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said: Does a single brick constitute a wall? How big of a brick are we talking? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #71 Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Do you question your Reality on a minute to minute bases? I don't. Neither do I need to understand how my visual cortex works in order to perceive the world. Just in case you don't know what that is. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482504/#:~:text=The primary purpose of the,to be analyzed and utilized. I am an Engineer and I have always been able to figure out and understand how everything works. That is, except for Conscious Experience. The reason I don't understand how Conscious Experience works is because nobody understands how it works. I said in the OP that I learned exactly how the Eye, Optic Nerve, and Visual Cortex work. You seem to think you know the answer to this, so tell me how the Visual Experience is produced by the Cortex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #72 Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 hour ago, lightly said: Neurons. Billions of them in a human brain. Is any one of them conscious? (just wondering) From my point of view the Brain CONNECTS to Consciousness. But the Brian is not Conscious itself. Consciousness exists in Conscious Space and the Brain exists in Physical Space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 13, 2021 #73 Share Posted September 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said: I am an Engineer and I have always been able to figure out and understand how everything works. That is, except for Conscious Experience. The reason I don't understand how Conscious Experience works is because nobody understands how it works. I said in the OP that I learned exactly how the Eye, Optic Nerve, and Visual Cortex work. You seem to think you know the answer to this, so tell me how the Visual Experience is produced by the Cortex. I'm a machinist. I spend my time fixing the engineers mistakes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted September 13, 2021 #74 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Interesting thread. Nice arguments on both sides. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKlinko Posted September 13, 2021 Author #75 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, XenoFish said: I'm a machinist. I spend my time fixing the engineers mistakes. Hahhhhh! I'm Electronics and Software. Those Mechanical Engineers sure are a bunch of trouble makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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