A 25 Year Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Body may seem to be the source of Experiences, but those Experiences cannot Logically be understood to come from the body. All we know is that there is Neural Activity and then there is Experience. There is Zero Explanation for this from Science. Let me emphasize the Zero. These Experiences seem to be separate from anything we can say about Neural Activity. That just is the reality right now. Science needs to show how the Experience comes from the Neural Activity. I try to keep that conceptual wedge inserted between Neural Activity and Conscious Experience simply to force some out of the box thought. Without the realization of the separation between Neural Activity and Conscious Experience, people have become lazy with respect to Consciousness to the point of insanely denying that there even is a Hard Problem of Consciousness. 

Hi Steve

Could you give me an example of neural activity that is not dependent on having a body?

[SHaYap]

4 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

I try to keep that conceptual wedge inserted between Neural Activity and Conscious Experience simply to force some out of the box thought.

You just contradicted yourself and every single post of yours with this line alone. 

~

[XenoFish]

There isn't a divide. If neural activity cease, you're dead. There is no conscious activity on any level. Yeah, this looks more like a 'soul' argument.

Edited September 18, 2021 by XenoFish

[SteveKlinko]

39 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

Could you give me an example of neural activity that is not dependent on having a body?

Of course that is not even a serious question. I can give you a property of something that has no Explanation in Science. Any Redness area in the Visual Experience is purely a Conscious Experience. Electromagnetic waves do not have a property of Redness. Electromagnetic Waves have a property of Wavelength. No Neural Activity can have a property of Redness. The Redness property exists only in a Conscious Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Thing. Science has Zero Explanation for something so real and so familiar to us as Redness. Science should be ashamed of itself for trying to hide the reality of Conscious Experience as being an actual Phenomenon in the Manifest Universe.

[XenoFish]

You do know that "redness" is just a descriptor? It is a word used to describe something. 

[XenoFish]

33 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course that is not even a serious question. I can give you a property of something that has no Explanation in Science. Any Redness area in the Visual Experience is purely a Conscious Experience. Electromagnetic waves do not have a property of Redness. Electromagnetic Waves have a property of Wavelength. No Neural Activity can have a property of Redness. The Redness property exists only in a Conscious Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Thing. Science has Zero Explanation for something so real and so familiar to us as Redness. Science should be ashamed of itself for trying to hide the reality of Conscious Experience as being an actual Phenomenon in the Manifest Universe.

A Conscious mind that takes in sensory information, creates a mental models and we use language to describe what we see and experience. 25 years? Seriously? 

[lightly]

2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course that is not even a serious question. I can give you a property of something that has no Explanation in Science. Any Redness area in the Visual Experience is purely a Conscious Experience. Electromagnetic waves do not have a property of Redness. Electromagnetic Waves have a property of Wavelength. No Neural Activity can have a property of Redness. The Redness property exists only in a Conscious Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Thing. Science has Zero Explanation for something so real and so familiar to us as Redness. Science should be ashamed of itself for trying to hide the reality of Conscious Experience as being an actual Phenomenon in the Manifest Universe.

I think your views ,and everyone else's, are very interesting..  personally, I like to think of (((consciousness))) as a pre physical state of being from which the physical universe emerges. (of course that could be wrong and most would insist it is wrong..fair enough)   ..but  how can anything Be without Being? 

.  Anyway, This whole thing reminds me of the  if a tree falls in the woods 'question'....   Yes, electromagnetic waves vary ..just as sound waves vary.  Redness are longer wave than blueness . Just as,  low frequencies are longer waves than high frequencies.   None of them require neural activity to exist..but most people insist they do require neural activity to be experienced.

 i don't know   is obviously the position I'm most comfortable with. 

    

[SteveKlinko]

12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You do know that "redness" is just a descriptor? It is a word used to describe something. 

There are many people out there like you that don't seem to have an actual Experience of Redness. You can Detect Redness in your Visual Experience but you don't seem to have the next step of Processing where you have a Redness Experience. You must be operating more at the Neural Level. Also, lacking the Redness or any other Color Experience (No Qualia) would make you a P-Zombie from Philosophy. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, SteveKlinko said:

There are many people out there like you that don't seem to have an actual Experience of Redness. You can Detect Redness in your Visual Experience but you don't seem to have the next step of Processing where you have a Redness Experience. You must be operating more at the Neural Level. Also, lacking the Redness or any other Color Experience (No Qualia) would make you a P-Zombie from Philosophy. 

You are quite arrogant in your assumptions. Considering you invite discussion yet basically call others either ignorant or stupid for not seeing things your way. Just like an engineer. Big brain and not a drop of common sense. 

[XenoFish]

As for this Conscious light you keep talking about. It's just a spark gap between mind and body. An argument for a soul. 

[spartan max2]

58 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course that is not even a serious question. I can give you a property of something that has no Explanation in Science. Any Redness area in the Visual Experience is purely a Conscious Experience. Electromagnetic waves do not have a property of Redness. Electromagnetic Waves have a property of Wavelength. No Neural Activity can have a property of Redness. The Redness property exists only in a Conscious Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Thing. Science has Zero Explanation for something so real and so familiar to us as Redness. Science should be ashamed of itself for trying to hide the reality of Conscious Experience as being an actual Phenomenon in the Manifest Universe.

What do you think of the mini brain "organoids" made in labs having brain waves?

https://www.statnews.com/2019/08/29/in-a-first-cerebral-organoids-produce-complex-brain-waves-similar-to-newborns-reviving-ethical-concerns/#:~:text=Despite their small size%2C the,alpha waves%2C and delta waves.

 

 

[SteveKlinko]

38 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You are quite arrogant in your assumptions. Considering you invite discussion yet basically call others either ignorant or stupid for not seeing things your way. Just like an engineer. Big brain and not a drop of common sense. 

Not arrogant. Just trying to get the truth out of you. So are you really unable to Experience Redness as a Qualia?

[SteveKlinko]

36 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

As for this Conscious light you keep talking about. It's just a spark gap between mind and body. An argument for a soul. 

If you rub your eyes the right way, do you not See Lights? I do mean, Actual Lights. What is that? Why are there Lights inside your head? Or maybe the Lights are out in your Mind.

[SHaYap]

Just now, SteveKlinko said:

If you rub your eyes the right way, do you not See Lights? I do mean, Actual Lights. What is that? Why are there Lights inside your head? Or maybe the Lights are out in your Mind.

Let's hear you tell us what you think "lights" is... and then what you think those "lights" are... 

~

[SteveKlinko]

37 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

What do you think of the mini brain "organoids" made in labs having brain waves?

https://www.statnews.com/2019/08/29/in-a-first-cerebral-organoids-produce-complex-brain-waves-similar-to-newborns-reviving-ethical-concerns/#:~:text=Despite their small size%2C the,alpha waves%2C and delta waves.

 

 

I like it. Don't know what Consciousness something like that could have, if any. Let's see where this goes.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

If you rub your eyes the right way, do you not See Lights? I do mean, Actual Lights. What is that? Why are there Lights inside your head? Or maybe the Lights are out in your Mind.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-do-we-see-stars-when-we-rub-our-eyes/amp/

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Not arrogant. Just trying to get the truth out of you. So are you really unable to Experience Redness as a Qualia?

I'm going to ignore this question due to the sheer stupidity of it.

[SteveKlinko]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Let's hear you tell us what you think "lights" is... and then what you think those "lights" are... 

~

That is the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience. Maybe since you seem to admit the Lights do Exist you are better appreciate the Hard Problem.

[SteveKlinko]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-do-we-see-stars-when-we-rub-our-eyes/amp/

Yes, yes, the Neural Correlates. But what are the Lights that you Experience?

[SteveKlinko]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I'm going to ignore this question due to the sheer stupidity of it.

Then I will have to suspect that you really don't Have the Redness Quale.

[XenoFish]

Just now, SteveKlinko said:

Then I will have to suspect that you really don't Have the Redness Quale.

What I suspect is that you already had the answer you wanted. So that regardless of how I chose to answer I would be wrong. 

3 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Yes, yes, the Neural Correlates. But what are the Lights that you Experience?

Oh for **** sake. 

[SteveKlinko]

57 minutes ago, lightly said:

I think your views ,and everyone else's, are very interesting..  personally, I like to think of (((consciousness))) as a pre physical state of being from which the physical universe emerges. (of course that could be wrong and most would insist it is wrong..fair enough)   ..but  how can anything Be without Being? 

.  Anyway, This whole thing reminds me of the  if a tree falls in the woods 'question'....   Yes, electromagnetic waves vary ..just as sound waves vary.  Redness are longer wave than blueness . Just as,  low frequencies are longer waves than high frequencies.   None of them require neural activity to exist..but most people insist they do require neural activity to be experienced.

 i don't know   is obviously the position I'm most comfortable with. 

    

Very good. Thank you for what sounds like a genuine and truthful reading and consideration of the problem of Conscious Experience. Nobody knows the first thing about what it really is at this point.

[XenoFish]

Most common phosphenes are diffuse blobs of different colours that move with the rubbing. Then there are scintillating and rapidly moving grid-like patterns which probably reflect the organisation of cells higher up in the visual system. These patterns are reminiscent of psychedelic paintings because the major hallucinogens also affect the visual system.

25 years of research folks. 

[SHaYap]

6 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

That is the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience. Maybe since you seem to admit the Lights do Exist you are better appreciate the Hard Problem.

No, it's your soft problem of your mental capacity burdened by hard consciousness.

You just admitted you have no idea what "light" is. 

~

[SteveKlinko]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

What I suspect is that you already had the answer you wanted. So that regardless of how I chose to answer I would be wrong. 

Oh for **** sake. 

There is no wrong or right. Over the years I have encountered many people that just seem not to get the concept of the Qualia. I used to think that they were just dishonest Physicalists defending their materialist Beliefs. But I came to realize that there was a possibility that some people, maybe a lot of people, don't have the Color Qualia. They detect Color so they are not Color Blind. They just don't Experience the Redness, Blueness or Greeness  Qualia.