A 25 Year Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

[lightly]

[SteveKlinko]

15 hours ago, lightly said:

What if the question was...if sunlight shines through the trees ,but, no one is there to see it..  Is it light?   Yes, because light is not sight.   Exactly as, sound is not hearing.

Very good. I have never heard anyone frame this in terms of Light. It is the same problem and has a similar answer. What you always thought was Light, was really your own Conscious Light in your Mind. Your Sight, as you want to call it, is made out of Conscious Light. So if the sunlight shines through the trees and there is nobody there to See it there is Physical Light (Electromagnetic Phenomenon) but there will not be any Conscious Light in a Mind. 

All Conscious Experience is like this.

[SteveKlinko]

17 hours ago, lightly said:

This reminded me that my Doors Greatest Hits CD doesn't work anymore. Need to get on Amazon.

[quiXilver]

Not sure if I mentioned this already, but @SteveKlinko I think you'd appreciate and get a lot of mileage from the work of Donald Hoffman.  He's a Neuro-Physiologist with several decades of experience in the field of human perceptual modeling.  His team's conclusions so far orbit around the seeming fact that we all hallucinate our reality.  Manufacturing our own individual models of the external world through the tranduction of signals received through the varied perceptual processes.

He's got several interviews and lectures on youtube.  I find it fascinating that our modeling process purposely ignores much of what is around us, we decrease full accuracy in favor of highlighting aspects of the environment that support survivability over accurate depictioning.

 

As a child I often asked my friends if they thought they saw the same hue of colors when they looked at the grass, sky, etc.  We use the same words for colors for grass, but that does not imply we 'see' the same hues at all.  Color blindness proves this to be true, but I've suspected my entire life, that it goes further and is more varied than that.

 

That and I've always wondered, 'what is the speed of dark?'.

 

Thanks for a great conversation, it's a fascinating topic and kudoz to the way you've presented and handled yourself in this thread.  The Skepdicks as you've seen can be a bit carnivorous here.

[lightly]

4 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Very good. I have never heard anyone frame this in terms of Light. It is the same problem and has a similar answer. What you always thought was Light, was really your own Conscious Light in your Mind. Your Sight, as you want to call it, is made out of Conscious Light. So if the sunlight shines through the trees and there is nobody there to See it there is Physical Light (Electromagnetic Phenomenon) but there will not be any Conscious Light in a Mind. 

All Conscious Experience is like this.

Ok, I'm a bit slow sometimes,but I'm listening..   When you say Conscious Light ..do you mean Light which IS Conscious??   (or light we are conscious of/ aware of...light we see?) 

.     What about a stinky scent in the trees..but no one's there to smell it ?  ..I suppose you'd say that it doesn't stink until someone smells it ?    What I always thought was stink was really my own Conscious Stink?

.    Or a breeze in the trees, but no one's there to feel it....  No breeze?

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by lightly

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, quiXilver said:

That and I've always wondered, 'what is the speed of dark?'.

Here you go... 

Quote

Darkness travels at the speed of light. More accurately, darkness does not exist by itself as a unique physical entity, but is simply the absence of light.20 Jun 2013

https://wtamu.edu › 2013/06/20 › w...

What is the speed of dark? | Science Questions with Surprising Answers

~

 

[SteveKlinko]

3 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Not sure if I mentioned this already, but @SteveKlinko I think you'd appreciate and get a lot of mileage from the work of Donald Hoffman.  He's a Neuro-Physiologist with several decades of experience in the field of human perceptual modeling.  His team's conclusions so far orbit around the seeming fact that we all hallucinate our reality.  Manufacturing our own individual models of the external world through the tranduction of signals received through the varied perceptual processes.

He's got several interviews and lectures on youtube.  I find it fascinating that our modeling process purposely ignores much of what is around us, we decrease full accuracy in favor of highlighting aspects of the environment that support survivability over accurate depictioning.

 

As a child I often asked my friends if they thought they saw the same hue of colors when they looked at the grass, sky, etc.  We use the same words for colors for grass, but that does not imply we 'see' the same hues at all.  Color blindness proves this to be true, but I've suspected my entire life, that it goes further and is more varied than that.

 

That and I've always wondered, 'what is the speed of dark?'.

 

Thanks for a great conversation, it's a fascinating topic and kudoz to the way you've presented and handled yourself in this thread.  The Skepdicks as you've seen can be a bit carnivorous here.

Yes, I have seen some of the Hoffman interview videos. He's good. Several other people, including Anil Seth, like to talk about our Conscious Experiences as Hallucinations. I think it makes people think in new ways so I basically like the concept. I first learned about the concept of Controlled and Uncontrolled Hallucinations from the writings of Max Clowes back in the 60's and 70's. I prefer to hold off on the use of the term Hallucination for actual aberrant Visual manifestations.  I like to point out that what we are Seeing in our Visual Experience is our own Internal Conscious Light. We always thought we were Seeing the Light from the External World, but we have always only been looking at our own Internal Conscious Light.

It is impossible to know, at least for now, what anybody else's Visual Experience is. I am beginning to suspect that the differences might be larger than I assumed when I first started my studies of Vision. Some people seem not to have the Color Experience, but are not Color Blind. The can detect Color but are completely mystified by the Color Experience and they basically deny that they have such an Experience. Don't know what their Experience could be. 

The Speed of Dark. Good one.

Thank You for the good words.

[SteveKlinko]

3 hours ago, lightly said:

Ok, I'm a bit slow sometimes,but I'm listening..   When you say Conscious Light ..do you mean Light which IS Conscious??   (or light we are conscious of/ aware of...light we see?) 

.     What about a stinky scent in the trees..but no one's there to smell it ?  ..I suppose you'd say that it doesn't stink until someone smells it ?    What I always thought was stink was really my own Conscious Stink?

.    Or a breeze in the trees, but no one's there to feel it....  No breeze?

 

The Light we See in our Visual Experience, that is embedded in the front of our faces, is Conscious Light. The Visual Experience is made out of all the Colors of Conscious Light. 

The stink is exactly your own Conscious Stink. Stink does not exist in the Physical World. It only exists in your Mind. It is how you Detect certain combinations of gasses. Your nose is a gas analyzer.

Your Tongue is a chemical analyzer in the same way. The chemical Salt does not have taste as a Property. The Salty taste is only in your Conscious Mind.

Of course the Breeze is there, just no Sensation on somebodies skin. The sense of Touch is a Conscious Experience in your Mind.

You are nothing but your Conscious Experiences.

[XenoFish]

33 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Stink does not exist in the Physical World.

So the rotting corpse isn't generating a stimuli which is interpreted as the decay of flesh? Then I suppose all smells and other external stimuli don't exist and are only psychosomatic in nature. I guess burn victims didn't feel the pain of or the smell from their flesh cooking. 

[lightly]

3 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

The Light we See in our Visual Experience, that is embedded in the front of our faces, is Conscious Light. The Visual Experience is made out of all the Colors of Conscious Light. 

The stink is exactly your own Conscious Stink. Stink does not exist in the Physical World. It only exists in your Mind. It is how you Detect certain combinations of gasses. Your nose is a gas analyzer.

Your Tongue is a chemical analyzer in the same way. The chemical Salt does not have taste as a Property. The Salty taste is only in your Conscious Mind.

Of course the Breeze is there, just no Sensation on somebodies skin. The sense of Touch is a Conscious Experience in your Mind.

You are nothing but your Conscious Experiences.

I realize that our sences are experienced in our minds..through our bodies.   Yes, the sense of touch (feeling the breeze) is a concious experience...which we have when we are touched by the breeze.

Yes the sense of smell is a concious experience ...which we have when we encounter  scent in the physical world.  The scent actually exits..in the air..in the physical world.    Exactly as "the breeze is there" .   They are both physical states of matter, which can be experienced ...yes, in our minds. Where else?

  If  "Of course the breeze is there"...then of course the sound is there....the light is there, the scent is there..everything is there ..and when we get there...we experience all of them...yes,   in our minds. 

The fact that objective ,physical, reality is experienced by us ,in our minds, does not change physical reality.   Or mean it does not exist..until experienced?   If IT did not exist..we would not experience IT.          

   That's how I see it anyway. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by lightly

[SteveKlinko]

13 hours ago, lightly said:

I realize that our sences are experienced in our minds..through our bodies.   Yes, the sense of touch (feeling the breeze) is a concious experience...which we have when we are touched by the breeze.

Yes the sense of smell is a concious experience ...which we have when we encounter  scent in the physical world.  The scent actually exits..in the air..in the physical world.    Exactly as "the breeze is there" .   They are both physical states of matter, which can be experienced ...yes, in our minds. Where else?

  If  "Of course the breeze is there"...then of course the sound is there....the light is there, the scent is there..everything is there ..and when we get there...we experience all of them...yes,   in our minds. 

The fact that objective ,physical, reality is experienced by us ,in our minds, does not change physical reality.   Or mean it does not exist..until experienced?   If IT did not exist..we would not experience IT.          

   That's how I see it anyway. 

But the scent as we Experience it only exists in our Minds. Externally, there is only a combination of gasses. A gas does not have scent as a Property. Scent is a Property of a Conscious thing in your Mind.

The Sound you Experience is only in your Mind. Pressure Waves in the air have no Sound, but only Wavelength. Your Ear/Brain/Mind translates Pressure Waves into the Conscious Sound that you Experience.

The Light you See in your Visual Experience is only in your Mind. Electromagnetic phenomena have  Wavelength as a property but are all completely dark. Your Eye/Brain/Mind translates Electromagnetic Waves into the Conscious Light that makes up your Visual Experience. 

For all these External phenomena, you are not Experiencing them like they are in the External World, but rather your Brain/Mind is creating these Conscious Experiences as Surrogates for the External phenomena. No Conscious Scent, no Conscious Sound, and no Conscious Light in the External Word. But there are still Gasses, Pressure Waves, and Electromagnetic Waves in the External World.

[SHaYap]

Crashed to the ground... 

Quote

 

[00.07:08]

~

 

[lightly]

11 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

But the scent as we Experience it only exists in our Minds. Externally, there is only a combination of gasses. A gas does not have scent as a Property. Scent is a Property of a Conscious thing in your Mind.

The Sound you Experience is only in your Mind. Pressure Waves in the air have no Sound, but only Wavelength. Your Ear/Brain/Mind translates Pressure Waves into the Conscious Sound that you Experience.

The Light you See in your Visual Experience is only in your Mind. Electromagnetic phenomena have  Wavelength as a property but are all completely dark. Your Eye/Brain/Mind translates Electromagnetic Waves into the Conscious Light that makes up your Visual Experience. 

For all these External phenomena, you are not Experiencing them like they are in the External World, but rather your Brain/Mind is creating these Conscious Experiences as Surrogates for the External phenomena. No Conscious Scent, no Conscious Sound, and no Conscious Light in the External Word. But there are still Gasses, Pressure Waves, and Electromagnetic Waves in the External World.

I have to disagree.  Those "Pressure waves" are SOUND.  That's what sound IS.   Our experience of sound is called HEARING.

     You have stated that objective reality exists..and that there is such a thing as "Physical Sound" .    Agreed.

    As for light being ,as you say,  "completely dark" ...   Can dark produce heat?   Does 'dark' consist of some wavelengths  which produce heat when they are Absorbed?      I dunno, maybe you are right about that.   Thanks for discussing it all, and presenting your ideas.  

      

[SteveKlinko]

43 minutes ago, lightly said:

I have to disagree.  Those "Pressure waves" are SOUND.  That's what sound IS.   Our experience of sound is called HEARING.

     You have stated that objective reality exists..and that there is such a thing as "Physical Sound" .    Agreed.

    As for light being ,as you say,  "completely dark" ...   Can dark produce heat?   Does 'dark' consist of some wavelengths  which produce heat when they are Absorbed?      I dunno, maybe you are right about that.   Thanks for discussing it all, and presenting your ideas.  

      

Ok that is your understanding of Sound and I gave it my best shot.

I should have said that Electromagnetic Waves don't Look like anything. Not even Dark or Black, just nothing.

Ironically, the heating part of the Electromagnetic Spectrum is Infra Red, which is not Seeable or in other words Dark.

[lightly]

2 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Ok that is your understanding of Sound and I gave it my best shot.

I should have said that Electromagnetic Waves don't Look like anything. Not even Dark or Black, just nothing.

Ironically, the heating part of the Electromagnetic Spectrum is Infra Red, which is not Seeable or in other words Dark.

Hmmm,  thanks Steve.  That is a fascinating idea.    Fun to think about really.  Hard to think of the Sun and light as not being 'light' !     But..then again, light is only a portion of the EM spectrum..what we are used to calling the Visible portion. (the rest is invisible/dark)  So ,in reality according to 'your' idea...  Colors ,for example, are just specific portions of the spectrum which when reflected off a surface...reach our eyes (retinal receiver). .and are then converted to visible/light in our minds.   ThankGoodness!  

    

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

Hmmm,  thanks Steve.  That is a fascinating idea.    Fun to think about really.  Hard to think of the Sun and light as not being 'light' !     But..then again, light is only a portion of the EM spectrum..what we are used to calling the Visible portion. (the rest is invisible/dark)  So ,in reality according to 'your' idea...  Colors ,for example, are just specific portions of the spectrum which when reflected off a surface...reach our eyes (retinal receiver). .and are then converted to visible/light in our minds.   ThankGoodness!  

    

Exactly. We understandably think that the Light that we See is the Electromagnetic phenomenon. After a whole lifetime of thinking that way, it is difficult to understand the reality. But we are always only Seeing our own Internal Light that our Brain/Mind generates.

[Horta]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:27 AM, SteveKlinko said:

Exactly. We understandably think that the Light that we See is the Electromagnetic phenomenon. After a whole lifetime of thinking that way, it is difficult to understand the reality. But we are always only Seeing our own Internal Light that our Brain/Mind generates.

Isn't this the same with all sensory perception? Everything we can ever experience is generated in our mind/brain. I thought this was long accepted and non controversial.

[SteveKlinko]

2 hours ago, Horta said:

Isn't this the same with all sensory perception? Everything we can ever experience is generated in our mind/brain. I thought this was long accepted and non controversial.

Yes, all Sensory perception is an Experience in the Mind. But in the case of the Visual Experience, a lot of people still think that the Experience in the Mind is somehow a direct Experience of how the thing Observed actually looks.  External objects don't Look like anything. Instead we can only Detect external objects. Our Brain\Minds create the so called Look of things. Some people call the Visual Experience the Visual Qualia. But when you say Visual Qualia, it confuses people because it throws them off the track of what they are really Seeing. They think, what could this strange Qualia thing be? Other people say the Visual Experience is a Model in the Mind. This too confuses, because the word Model doesn't express the Experience of the thing.  Still, other people just say that the Visual Experience is a Representation in the Mind. There are other words that people use. But the words Qualia, Model, Representation, etc. are inappropriate words for the thing we See in our Visual Experience. These words muddy the reality of the thing we are Experiencing. I like to say we are Seeing our Internal Light. It is the Light that we have always Seen. Let's just say that we See Light because it is Light that we are Seeing. But it has never been External Light (Electromagnetic). It has always been Conscious Light. No need to hide the Experience by saying Qualia, Model, or Representation. It is Light. It is in your Mind. The Light is obviously part of what you are. You are that Light because the Light is part of you.

[lightly]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

Yes, all Sensory perception is an Experience in the Mind. But in the case of the Visual Experience, a lot of people still think that the Experience in the Mind is somehow a direct Experience of how the thing Observed actually looks.  External objects don't Look like anything. Instead we can only Detect external objects. Our Brain\Minds create the so called Look of things. Some people call the Visual Experience the Visual Qualia. But when you say Visual Qualia, it confuses people because it throws them off the track of what they are really Seeing. They think, what could this strange Qualia thing be? Other people say the Visual Experience is a Model in the Mind. This too confuses, because the word Model doesn't express the Experience of the thing.  Still, other people just say that the Visual Experience is a Representation in the Mind. There are other words that people use. But the words Qualia, Model, Representation, etc. are inappropriate words for the thing we See in our Visual Experience. These words muddy the reality of the thing we are Experiencing. I like to say we are Seeing our Internal Light. It is the Light that we have always Seen. Let's just say that we See Light because it is Light that we are Seeing. But it has never been External Light (Electromagnetic). It has always been Conscious Light. No need to hide the Experience by saying Qualia, Model, or Representation. It is Light. It is in your Mind. The Light is obviously part of what you are. You are that Light because the Light is part of you.

Ya, our brains create visual images in our minds....but part of the "look of things" is the physical shape and dimensions...that is there.   We could detect ,and experience, the perfectly spherical nature of a bowling ball, in total darkness, finger holes and all.  Our senses of touch, and smell, and hearing, can all function perfectly well in total darkness ?   

 Just a thought ^ ....   I think your view on visual experience is very interesting. 

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

Ya, our brains create visual images in our minds....but part of the "look of things" is the physical shape and dimensions...that is there.   We could detect ,and experience, the perfectly spherical nature of a bowling ball, in total darkness, finger holes and all.  Our senses of touch, and smell, and hearing, can all function perfectly well in total darkness ?   

 Just a thought ^ ....   I think your view on visual experience is very interesting. 

Yes, all the other senses operate in their own sensory regimes to help us interact with the External World.

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

External objects don't Look like anything. Instead we can only Detect external objects. 

For one how do you know that external objects are formless, then how can we supposedly detect these shapeless objects. Because I'm sure blind folks detect something.

[+joc]

3 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Yes, all the other senses operate in their own sensory regimes to help us interact with the External World.

Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance yet?

[SteveKlinko]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance yet?

I have always been curious about that book and have read summaries at one point or another a long time ago. Maybe when I retire, in a couple of years, I will find the time. Is there any particular lesson from the book that you want to talk about?

[+joc]

16 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

I have always been curious about that book and have read summaries at one point or another a long time ago. Maybe when I retire, in a couple of years, I will find the time. Is there any particular lesson from the book that you want to talk about?

Oh...well...there are lots of lessons in that book.  The one I was thinking of however is ..why.. the author wrote the book.  It had  something to do with an obsession he add with finding an adequate definition for the word Quality. 

[Horta]

12 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Let's just say that we See Light because it is Light that we are Seeing. But it has never been External Light (Electromagnetic). It has always been Conscious Light. No need to hide the Experience by saying Qualia, Model, or Representation. It is Light. It is in your Mind. The Light is obviously part of what you are. You are that Light because the Light is part of you.

As sceptical as I am (as you might have noticed lol) I'm open to possibilities there. Not for any reasons of science though, and it probably veers towards woo, but from direct experience.

I had an experience once of simply being light. No mind, no thoughts, no anything except an infinite stillness and timeless light. No way to explain the experience itself with words but trying to think about it since, I can see that it had some of the properties you would expect from the pov of light. Such as being infinite and beyond time. As far as I understand relativity distance shrink s to 0 at the speed of light (in direction of travel) and time stops. It's interesting.