A 25 Year Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

[SteveKlinko]

2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

You don't like the idea that your beautiful "high definition display" is created by neurons.

The idea of it is fine. It's the Zero Explanation for how the Neurons Produce the High Def Display that is the problem. I have been welcoming and hoping for an Explanation for this for 25 years with no results from Science.

[SHaYap]

12 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

The idea of it is fine. It's the Zero Explanation for how the Neurons Produce the High Def Display that is the problem. I have been welcoming and hoping for an Explanation for this for 25 years with no results from Science.

First prove to science of your claims that your neurons can produce High Def Display is valid. If you can prove that, I'm sure science too can prove why, be it mind meddling psychic aliens or some divine goddess with three breasts that danced for the Pope before showing up in your head. 

~

Edited September 12, 2021 by third_eye
Ask stupid questions win stupid prizes

[XenoFish]

18 minutes ago, third_eye said:

First prove to science of your claims that your neurons can produce High Def Display is valid. If you can prove that, I'm sure science too can prove why, be it mind meddling psychic aliens or some divine goddess with three breasts that danced for the Pope before showing up in your head. 

~

I think he's coming from a position. That reality is a hallucination.

[SHaYap]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think he's coming from a position. That reality is a hallucination.

Nahhhhh... When one had clearly seen / reached visions of spiritual maturity, there is no such need to pursue further validation from anything or anyone, be it science or the divine. 

~ 

[XenoFish]

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/654730916

Here's something in regards to 'controlled hallucination'.

[+joc]

24 minutes ago, third_eye said:

some divine goddess with three breasts that danced for the Pope

Is there a video?   

[XenoFish]

Just now, third_eye said:

Nahhhhh... When one had clearly seen / reached visions of spiritual maturity, there is no such need to pursue further validation from anything or anyone, be it science or the divine. 

~ 

My problem with this concept comes down to the filler explanations. Saying that science doesn't know X then proceeding to explain X with gibberish.

[+joc]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:16 PM, SteveKlinko said:

After 25 years of study, I had to face the fact that Science had no Explanation for how we See.

Ah, so you have a doctorate in ophthalmology.  Nice!   Do the rest of your Eye Doctor friends believe that Science has no explanation for how we see?  Or are you   

                  out           standing                           in  your field...all alone?

[SHaYap]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

Is there a video?   

Only neuron High Def Display versions available. 

~

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

My problem with this concept comes down to the filler explanations. Saying that science doesn't know X then proceeding to explain X with gibberish.

If such explanations as offered weren't from glaring false premises and blindingly illogical flashes of disingenuous claims, it would have been entertaining gibberish. 

~

[SteveKlinko]

44 minutes ago, third_eye said:

First prove to science of your claims that your neurons can produce High Def Display is valid. If you can prove that, I'm sure science too can prove why, be it mind meddling psychic aliens or some divine goddess with three breasts that danced for the Pope before showing up in your head. 

~

I'm not claiming that Neurons do that, but Physicalists do claim that they do that. Since I'm saying that I don't think Neurons produce the High Def Display I'm asking the Physicalists to tell me how they do. Maybe you are denying the existence of the High Def Display.

[SteveKlinko]

18 minutes ago, joc said:

Ah, so you have a doctorate in ophthalmology.  Nice!   Do the rest of your Eye Doctor friends believe that Science has no explanation for how we see?  Or are you   

                  out           standing                           in  your field...all alone?

I might as well have a doctorate in ophthalmology. I have extensively studied it for 25 years. I'll edit this to say that I have studied Eye Physiology for 25 years.

Edited September 12, 2021 by SteveKlinko

[SHaYap]

2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

I'm not claiming that Neurons do that, but Physicalists do claim that they do that. Since I'm saying that I don't think Neurons produce the High Def Display I'm asking the Physicalists to tell me how they do. Maybe you are denying the existence of the High Def Display.

First of all, what in the tarnation is Physicalists?

And who told you neurons produce High Def Displays? 

~

[SteveKlinko]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

First of all, what in the tarnation is Physicalists?

And who told you neurons produce High Def Displays? 

~

Open your eyes and Look, and Think.

[SHaYap]

Just now, SteveKlinko said:

Open your eyes and Look, and Think.

I looked, I saw your foolishness.

I thought, I should spare my neurons the idiocy that the eye is subject to. 

~

[+joc]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

I might as well have a doctorate in ophthalmology. I have extensively studied it for 25 years. I'll edit this to say that I have studied Eye Physiology for 25 years.

The question was:

  Do the rest of your Eye Doctor friends believe that Science has no explanation for how we see?  

Do you see what I'm saying?

[lightly]

21 minutes ago, joc said:

The question was:

  Do the rest of your Eye Doctor friends believe that Science has no explanation for how we see?  

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yup, I do.    But not with my eyes.    

[+joc]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

I might as well have a doctorate in ophthalmology. I have extensively studied it for 25 years.

Do you feel confident enough in your knowledge of the eye to perform  eye surgery?  

Edited September 12, 2021 by joc

[+joc]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:16 PM, SteveKlinko said:

A)   Science Has No explanation

It all started one day when I thought it might be fun to figure out how we See.

I read what the Scientists and the Philosophers had to say.

I studied Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology.

I learned exactly how the Eye, Optic Nerve, and Visual Cortex work.

But I was disappointed, because all this understanding did not explain how we See.

After 25 years of study, I had to face the fact that Science had no Explanation for how we See.

 

   Think In New Ways

I discovered that the only thing Science knew for sure was that if certain Neurons fire we can have an Experience of Seeing.

It was reasonable to speculate that there must be something about the Neurons that produced this Experience of Seeing.

And for the last hundred years, Science has Probed, Measured, Scanned, and Mapped the Brain in every conceivable way.

And this has resulted in HUGE progress with understanding the Neural Activity that happens while Seeing.

But after all this time, Science has made exactly ZERO progress with understanding the Conscious Experience of Seeing.

Ironically, the Seeing part of how we See was still a total mystery.

It became clear to me that it was time to start thinking in New Ways.

But it is difficult to teach people to think in New Ways.

And I found that I can only Nudge people in the right direction, with the hope that they will eventually understand the New Ways.

 

C)   Insight From Floating Lights

So here is a Nudge toward New Ways of thinking, in the form of a little story about Floating Lights.

A lot of times I fall asleep on the couch in my Stereo room at night.

I have multiple Preamps, Power Amps, Processors, and Converters with different Colored LED panel Lights.

It relaxes me to think about these Lights when I’m going to sleep.

The LEDs seem to float “Out There” in space as Colored points of Light punching through the darkness.

It’s just Me … the LEDs … and the Darkness.

At first, because I knew the LEDs were across the room, my Experience was that they really were across the room.

Eventually, I realized that I could Experience the Lights as being close to me.

I could even make them seem like they were located directly in front of my face.

I assumed this was just my Imagination.

 

D)   Conscious Space

But after a while, I realized that this might not be my Imagination.

It was in fact the first evidence that I might not be Seeing the Physical LEDs, but rather I was Seeing some kind of Conscious Experience in my Mind.

The Illusion has always been that the Lights were “Out There”.

But the reality is that the Lights were never “Out There” in the first place.

I was Seeing what I call Conscious Lights.

These Conscious Lights were created by my Mind and projected in front of my face.

It seemed Logical to speculate that the Conscious Lights existed in some new conceptual place, which I call Conscious Space.

Next, it became Logical to speculate that each individual Conscious Mind might consist of a little chunk of this Conscious Space.

So we each have our own chunk of Conscious Space, and this is where our separate Conscious Experiences happen.

 

E)   Conscious Experience

Let’s think about Seeing Color and especially let’s think about Seeing Red.

Instead of Seeing Red I like to say we Experience Redness.

This helps point attention to the Redness Experience in the Mind, and not to the Red Electromagnetic Wave phenomenon.

The Redness Experience is in Conscious Space and the Red Electromagnetic Wave is in Physical Space.

The argument is similar for any other Color or combination of Colors, including shades of gray from Black to White.

The Visually impaired can consider the Conscious Experience of other things, like the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, or the Touch of a Rough Surface.

 

F)   The Inter Mind

Science has mapped the various Sensory inputs from the Eyes, Ears, Tongue, Nose, and Skin to specific areas of the Cortex.

So, for example we can say:

1 Neural Activity for Red happens in the Cortex.

2 A Redness Experience happens in the Conscious Mind.

But we have a dilemma because this question screams out at us:

How does the Neural Activity produce the Redness Experience?

From a Systems Engineering point of view there is a missing processing stage between the Neural Activity and the Conscious Experience.

I call the missing processing stage, the Inter Mind, because it is an Interconnecting stage between the Physical Mind, and the Conscious Mind, where Physical Mind means the Brain.

We can now imagine a three stage diagram of Mind that shows the Physical Mind connected to the Inter Mind and the Inter Mind connected to the Conscious Mind.

I call this diagram the Inter Mind Model of Consciousness.

The Inter Mind does the Processing to Translate Neural Activity in the Physical Mind into the Conscious Experience in the Conscious Mind.

The Inter Mind functionality might exist partly in the Physical Mind and partly in the Conscious Mind.

But it might exist only in the Physical Mind or only in the Conscious Mind.

Physicalists will insist it is completely in the Physical Mind.

One thing for sure is that the functionality of an Inter Mind must exist somewhere.

 

G)  Physiology of Seeing

Let’s talk about the Physiology of Seeing.

Physical Light from the External Scene enters the Eye and is focused onto the Retina.

The Energy from the Physical Light activates millions of Light Receptors that send signals to the Visual Cortex.

The Visual Cortex performs processing using a cascading, feedback, network of millions of Activated Neurons.

Since all this Neural Activity is Correlated with the Physical Light, I like to call it, the Neural Light.

But we don’t See this Neural Light.

We See a Conscious Light Scene in the Mind that is Correlated with the Neural Light.

The Conscious Light Scene cannot be found in the Physical Mind.

I like to speculate that the whole Conscious Light Scene is in Conscious Space.

 

H)   Reconstruction and Overlay Processing

But let’s talk about what the Physical Mind is actually doing.

The Physical Mind seems to deconstruct the Scene we are looking at with the goal of detecting features of the Scene like lines, edges, motion, and color.

The highest stages seem to be for image recognition.

The lower stages seem to be for control of eye focus, convergence, and target tracking.

There are some edge enhancement and shading effects that are generated in the lower stages that can be Experienced in the Conscious Light Scene.

If there is a damaged area in the lower stages, then an equivalent blacked out area will appear in the Conscious Light Scene.

If there is damage to the Color areas, then the Color Experience will be impaired.

It seems that the Conscious Light Scene that we See, must consist of an Overlay of all the Visual Cortex processing stages.

The deconstructed Cortex information must be Reconstructed into a Coherent Conscious Light Scene.

Unfortunately, there is no known mechanism in the Physical Mind that does this Overlay and Reconstruction Processing.

This missing Processing is sometimes called the Binding Problem.

Since the purpose of the Inter Mind is to Translate the Neural Activity into the Conscious Light Scene, it is Logical to propose that the Inter Mind must perform the Overlay and Reconstruction processing.

 

I)     Three Types of Light

Let’s think about the three types of Light.

First, there are the Electromagnetic Waves, in Physical Space, which I call Physical Light.

Second, there is the Neural Activity, also in Physical Space, which I call Neural Light.

Third, there is the Conscious Experience, in Conscious Space, which I call Conscious Light.

These different Types of Light exist at different stages in the Seeing process.

We have never Seen the Physical Light or the Neural Light.

We have always only Seen the Conscious Light that is in our Conscious Minds.

 

J)    An Important Realization

Since the Conscious Light is in our Conscious Minds we can say the Light is our own internal personal Light.

Even if you are a Physicalist and believe the Conscious Light is in the Neurons, it is still your own internal personal Light.

Since the Conscious Light is internal to us, we can say the Conscious Light is partly what we are.

We can say: We are that Light.

For me, this was the most important Realization I have ever had about my own Mind and Being.

 

And then there was the guy that lost his mind completely because he got hung up on one word...Quality...

As a result of his 'therapy'...he managed to write a book trying to explain it all...I really enjoyed the book...maybe you will too, it's an old read but it helped me somehow...so I will nudge you toward the book:

Zen, and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

I might as well have a doctorate in ophthalmology. I have extensively studied it for 25 years. I'll edit this to say that I have studied Eye Physiology for 25 years.

Hi Steve

So is it like a job that you get paid for or a full time hobby?

[+joc]

22 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

So is it like a job that you get paid for or a full time hobby?

I think what Stevie is trying to say is that we don't know how the neurons take the information from the retina and translate it into 'sight'.  Just thinking out loud here but...could it have anything to do with the way radio waves are turned into video on our TVs?  Radio waves turned into sound?  Electricity running through the cables turns into Netlfix shows/ 

I don't know you know...it's all so mind boggling.

What I find fascinating...but not really ...is how the visual imagery of our inner mind...like in our dreams...works.  Not really because while Stevie invested his whole life into figuring out why his car wouldn't start...he never once checked the battery.

I'm just kidding stevo...I'm funnin' ya son!

Seriously, it's all memory.  Memory is a result of some of our brain cells in certain parts of our brain being coated with something called SetalColene...or something like that.  Look it  up if you want to yell at me.  But this biochemical in our brain coats the cells and the schwang of neuronic firing is frozen in place...kind of like that stuff you use to spray on your hair back in the day...right jmccr8?   The more acetalcolene is sprayed on the painting of that memory...the stronger it is....but...and this is a rub of sorts...acetalcoleen is sprayed depending not on what we see...but on what we think.  That's why I remember putting my keys on the dresser...but man...how is it they got from my dresser to under the seat in my wife's car?  It's because I 'thought' about putting them on the dresser...and that thought was frozen into memory ...and we find it difficult to separate the two...

So...yeah...it's kind of mind boggling.  Unless you are like in Colorado or Oklahoma...then not so much...

[XenoFish]

So what about those with aphantasia?

[jmccr8]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

I think what Stevie is trying to say is that we don't know how the neurons take the information from the retina and translate it into 'sight'.  Just thinking out loud here but...could it have anything to do with the way radio waves are turned into video on our TVs?  Radio waves turned into sound?  Electricity running through the cables turns into Netlfix shows/ 

I don't know you know...it's all so mind boggling.

What I find fascinating...but not really ...is how the visual imagery of our inner mind...like in our dreams...works.  Not really because while Stevie invested his whole life into figuring out why his car wouldn't start...he never once checked the battery.

I'm just kidding stevo...I'm funnin' ya son!

Seriously, it's all memory.  Memory is a result of some of our brain cells in certain parts of our brain being coated with something called SetalColene...or something like that.  Look it  up if you want to yell at me.  But this biochemical in our brain coats the cells and the schwang of neuronic firing is frozen in place...kind of like that stuff you use to spray on your hair back in the day...right jmccr8?   The more acetalcolene is sprayed on the painting of that memory...the stronger it is....but...and this is a rub of sorts...acetalcoleen is sprayed depending not on what we see...but on what we think.  That's why I remember putting my keys on the dresser...but man...how is it they got from my dresser to under the seat in my wife's car?  It's because I 'thought' about putting them on the dresser...and that thought was frozen into memory ...and we find it difficult to separate the two...

So...yeah...it's kind of mind boggling.  Unless you are like in Colorado or Oklahoma...then not so much...

Hi Joc

I don't question why or how I see, I know that I measured cut nailed, glued, screwed something together and everybody else sees the same thing or close enough( 2 brothers own a car one sees it as his babe wagon and his brother sees it as a means of going from A-B) that I still get paid so it's not much of a mystery to me given from what I was taught in elementary school health classes. I was only wondering if this was a job or a full time obsession (can't think of another word to use) for 25 years.

Edited September 13, 2021 by jmccr8
A hopeless endeavor to correct at least one defect

[+joc]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So what about those with aphantasia?

how does someone with aphantasia describe their dreams...

i was running through the woods...I think...in the dark...I think...when somebody...or something...did something...but...it was dark and....never mind....

Is this a question that has ever come up in a line up?

[XenoFish]

In the context of this thread the whole deal with mental imagery. So what about those who can not form mental images? What about those. I think the OP of this thread needs to address that. 

[+joc]

9 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

I'm not claiming that Neurons do that, but Physicalists do claim that they do that. Since I'm saying that I don't think Neurons produce the High Def Display I'm asking the Physicalists to tell me how they do. Maybe you are denying the existence of the High Def Display.

There is no High Def Display.  that is just a term that you are using to describe the visuals that we 'remember' seeing.  None of it is real...By the time your retina receives the information and sends it to your brain...and by the time your brain takes that information and decodes it and the neurons start firing and cells are coated with acetylkolene...whatever it is you think you are seeing has already happened man.  The High Def Display is your brain regenerating the memory of what you think you saw.  Like walking into the closet in the dark and flipping the light on and off.

Edited September 13, 2021 by joc