A 25 Year Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

[XenoFish]

Just now, SteveKlinko said:

Hahhhhh!

I'm Electronics and Software.

Those Mechanical Engineers sure are a bunch of trouble makers.

All engineers that I've met tend to over complicate their ideas while thinking they're smarter than everyone else. The fabricators, electricians, and machinist have to deal with their arrogance. Fix their mistakes. 

[XenoFish]

44 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

That is, except for Conscious Experience. The reason I don't understand how Conscious Experience works is because nobody understands how it works. 

Then why bother? Because I personally don't see the point of worrying/concerning myself with such things. Seems trivial.

Since no one know what consciousness is, how can you assume that consciousness is external? If no one knows, that includes you.

Edited September 13, 2021 by XenoFish

[+joc]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

I am an Engineer and I have always been able to figure out and understand how everything works. That is, except for Conscious Experience. The reason I don't understand how Conscious Experience works is because nobody understands how it works. I said in the OP that I learned exactly how the Eye, Optic Nerve, and Visual Cortex work. You seem to think you know the answer to this, so tell me how the Visual Experience is produced by the Cortex.

I already did...think of cable tv of the brain...except you aren't really watching anything live.  There is a nano second of delay...what you see is memorized and then your brain...cortex...is replaying the memory.  Just like you never see the bullet leave the barrel unless you use slomo  

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

All engineers that I've met tend to over complicate their ideas while thinking they're smarter than everyone else. The fabricators, electricians, and machinist have to deal with their arrogance. Fix their mistakes. 

There's a shirt that says:

I'm an Engineer
To save time just assume
I'm never wrong.

 

I like it.

[SteveKlinko]

57 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Then why bother? Because I personally don't see the point of worrying/concerning myself with such things. Seems trivial.

Since no one know what consciousness is, how can you assume that consciousness is external? If no one knows, that includes you.

The main Scientific approach is to assume it is an internal functioning of the Neurons only. This approach has been tried for a hundred years with Zero understanding of Conscious Experience as the result. It's time to start thinking in new Scientific ways.  This is why I assume it is External. 

[SteveKlinko]

11 minutes ago, joc said:

I already did...think of cable tv of the brain...except you aren't really watching anything live.  There is a nano second of delay...what you see is memorized and then your brain...cortex...is replaying the memory.  Just like you never see the bullet leave the barrel unless you use slomo  

Ok that's your speculation. All speculations are on the table when it comes to Conscious Experience. 

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

The main Scientific approach is to assume it is an internal functioning of the Neurons only. This approach has been tried for a hundred years with Zero understanding of Conscious Experience as the result. It's time to start thinking in new Scientific ways.  This is why I assume it is External. 

Why? What is so important about explaining consciousness? 

[SHaYap]

If it needs explainin'

...

Let's spin it on a dime... 

If someone had to pray very hard every night for the sun to rise again at dawn...

Is it a case of utmost reverence unto faith or just a dire lack of trust in science... 

~

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Why? What is so important about explaining consciousness? 

I'm not going to put a worth value on exploring any kind of phenomenon. Conscious Experience may not be important but it is what I want to Explain. I have discovered some pretty Exciting things for myself in terms of Mind and Being. It is what propels me forward. I suppose if I had an ulterior motive it would be to design a Machine that had Conscious Experiences. This will not be possible without a good understanding of what a Conscious Experience is. I think Self Driving Cars would be way more safe if they could know Fear. Machine might be designed to have a subset of Experiences from what we know. Maybe a Self Driving Car could be designed to have the Desire to get to the target destination as safe as possible. Maybe the reward for getting there is to design in a tremendous sense of satisfaction or even some Orgasmic reward. It could be designed to only want to do this with no other conflicting Desires.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, SteveKlinko said:

I'm not going to put a worth value on exploring any kind of phenomenon. Conscious Experience may not be important but it is what I want to Explain. I have discovered some pretty Exciting things for myself in terms of Mind and Being. It is what propels me forward. I suppose if I had an ulterior motive it would be to design a Machine that had Conscious Experiences. This will not be possible without a good understanding of what a Conscious Experience is. I think Self Driving Cars would be way more safe if they could know Fear. Machine might be designed to have a subset of Experiences from what we know. Maybe a Self Driving Car could be designed to have the Desire to get to the target destination as safe as possible. Maybe the reward for getting there is to design in a tremendous sense of satisfaction or even some Orgasmic reward. It could be designed to only want to do this with no other conflicting Desires.

I still don't see the point. Perhaps such efforts are too trivial and meaningless to me. I think a better effort could be in disease elimination. That's just me though.

[SteveKlinko]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I still don't see the point. Perhaps such efforts are too trivial and meaningless to me. I think a better effort could be in disease elimination. That's just me though.

But studying disease elimination will not help me design a Conscious Machine. You have very incoherent Logic.

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

But studying disease elimination will not help me design a Conscious Machine. You have very incoherent Logic.

You misunderstand. I think all that time and effort is better spent on something useful, like disease elimination/treatment. Thinking machines are a waste of time. 

[XenoFish]

Beside you're looking at the problem wrong to begin with. The trick is to replicate how the human mind works. 

[SteveKlinko]

37 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Beside you're looking at the problem wrong to begin with. The trick is to replicate how the human mind works. 

When you say replicate how the Mind works, you can only mean Understand how the Mind works. But this is what everyone is trying to do. Let's do it. What's your next step in that direction?

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

When you say replicate how the Mind works, you can only mean Understand how the Mind works. But this is what everyone is trying to do. Let's do it. What's your next step in that direction?

No I literally mean replicate each aspect of the human mind. You're looking at the car and not the parts. Look at the parts, all of them. And how each one works. Then figure out how to harmoniously integrate them. The missing piece would be some type of synthetic neuron. One that works just like our, with the same neuroplasticity. 

[SteveKlinko]

34 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No I literally mean replicate each aspect of the human mind. You're looking at the car and not the parts. Look at the parts, all of them. And how each one works. Then figure out how to harmoniously integrate them. The missing piece would be some type of synthetic neuron. One that works just like our, with the same neuroplasticity. 

How are you going to replicate without understanding first?

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, SteveKlinko said:

How are you going to replicate without understanding first?

You look at the functions. All our senses, how the whole unit works together. Take the metaphorical car apart. Copy the pieces and build another car. I mean you supposedly spent 25 years on this. Did this train of thought not pass your mind? 

If you want to build a computer you need to know what each part does right? 

Unless you want to just grow a lab vat brain.

[SteveKlinko]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You look at the functions. All our senses, how the whole unit works together. Take the metaphorical car apart. Copy the pieces and build another car. I mean you supposedly spent 25 years on this. Did this train of thought not pass your mind? 

If you want to build a computer you need to know what each part does right? 

Unless you want to just grow a lab vat brain.

Of course when I say I studied these things for 25 years, I had to study the subsystems as well as the integrated total system. I have studied the Visual System and anything possibly connected with the Visual System. So I am telling you, after you learn all that, there is Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience. Understanding all the pieces doesn't help. Understanding the integrated total Visual System doesn't help either. There is truly a Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

[spartan max2]

Our understanding of brain science is till pretty young. We've had alot of progress in the last couple decades though.

We don't understand enough to explain consciousness, if we did then would probably of been able to cure things like dementia and Alzheimers by now.

Now if that's proof of a spirit or soul that's really up to you to decide as an individual.

Like most things I feel like one day it will be explained. But cheers to hoping it never does ha.

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course when I say I studied these things for 25 years, I had to study the subsystems as well as the integrated total system. I have studied the Visual System and anything possibly connected with the Visual System. So I am telling you, after you learn all that, there is Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience. Understanding all the pieces doesn't help. Understanding the integrated total Visual System doesn't help either. There is truly a Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

It doesn't matter. If you're working on a thinking machine. The only thing that matters is how it processes and interact successfully within its environment. Which is what we do. 

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course when I say I studied these things for 25 years, I had to study the subsystems as well as the integrated total system. I have studied the Visual System and anything possibly connected with the Visual System. So I am telling you, after you learn all that, there is Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience. Understanding all the pieces doesn't help. Understanding the integrated total Visual System doesn't help either. There is truly a Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

Hi Steve

The thing is is that we use all of our senses to experience things so it's not just what we see but touch, smell, hear etc that helps create those visual experience in your mind, when I smell coconut oil I can visualize a girl I once knew same thing if I hear a song I can visualize people that that song reminds me of or the experiences I had with them.

Edited September 13, 2021 by jmccr8
A hopeless endeavor to correct at least one defect

[lightly]

22 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Does a single brick constitute a wall?

No.   Ok, I'll rephrase my question....are neurons Conscious ?

[SteveKlinko]

16 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Our understanding of brain science is till pretty young. We've had alot of progress in the last couple decades though.

We don't understand enough to explain consciousness, if we did then would probably of been able to cure things like dementia and Alzheimers by now.

Now if that's proof of a spirit or soul that's really up to you to decide as an individual.

Like most things I feel like one day it will be explained. But cheers to hoping it never does ha.

But Alzheimer's and Dementia are Physical Problems in the Brain. I don't think we need to understand Consciousness to eventually cure those diseases.

[SteveKlinko]

16 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It doesn't matter. If you're working on a thinking machine. The only thing that matters is how it processes and interact successfully within its environment. Which is what we do. 

Ok, I guess that is your final word on the subject ... It doesn't matter.

[SteveKlinko]

15 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

The thing is is that we use all of our senses to experience things so it's not just what we see but touch, smell, hear etc that helps create those visual experience in your mind, when I smell coconut oil I can visualize a girl I once knew same thing if I hear a song I can visualize people that that song reminds me of or the experiences I had with them.

Of course all those other things are Conscious Experiences too. But the problem is, how is it that we Experience those things.