A 25 Year Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

[SteveKlinko]

18 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You didn't answer my questions.

If you don't understand my answer and refuse to answer my question then we are at a Stalemate. Bye to you.

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

I like it. Don't know what Consciousness something like that could have, if any. Let's see where this goes.

I guess what I meant was how do you incorporate this information into your view that consciousness is external from the body?

We typically use brain waves to decide if someone is conscious or not.

So if these little lab grown organoids have brain waves does that mean they have a level or consciousness, if not than what do brain waves actually do? Can we create consciousness? If so than is that external or biological?

If we could create consciousness then would that prove it's biological?

Just things to think about 

Edited September 18, 2021 by spartan max2

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

If you don't understand my answer and refuse to answer my question then we are at a Stalemate. Bye to you.

Can or can you not prove you have the experience of redness?

[SteveKlinko]

55 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I guess what I meant was how do you incorporate this information into your view that consciousness is external from the body?

We typically use brain waves to decide if someone is conscious or not.

So if these little lab grown organoids have brain waves does that mean they have a level or consciousness, if not than what do brain waves actually do? Can we create consciousness? If so than is that external or biological?

If we could create consciousness then would that prove it's biological?

Just things to think about 

I try not to just say something has Consciousness, because that is too general and everybody thinks it means something different. I like to talk about specific Conscious Experiences like Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the smell of Bleach, Pain, Pleasure, and etc. I think Brain Waves cannot be indicators of Conscious Experience like those I mentioned above. Like everything else in the Brain, Brain Waves are Correlates to possible Conscious Experience but are not Conscious Experience itself. The Conscious Experience cannot be found in the Brain with any chain of Scientific Logic. The Conscious Experiences seem to be separate from the Brain. But that does not mean Science will never find that chain of Logic. Also, after a hundred years of Science trying it this way, they have Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience. I think it's time to stop pushing the Conscious Visual Experience back into the Neurons. The Conscious Visual Experience will not be pushed back into the Neurons. The Conscious Visual Experience just floats, and is imbedded in the front of our faces, helping us to move around in the world without bumping into things.

Edited September 18, 2021 by SteveKlinko

[lightly]

3 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Very good. Thank you for what sounds like a genuine and truthful reading and consideration of the problem of Conscious Experience. Nobody knows the first thing about what it really is at this point.

Thanks,  ya, I like this thread because ,for some reason or other, I ,too, really love thinking and wondering about the nature of consciousness.     I've become sort of torn between the idea that the tree can fall, and make noise, with no one Experiencing it/Being conscious of it......and the opposite idea..that nothing really HAPPENS unless it is somehow Experienced. (some hold that view).  

   The thing that blows my mind is to think of the possibility of the Universe  Existing ,as believed, for 14 billion years    ?    With absolutely no conscious experience of it..until ,vertualy, THIS MOMENT. !?!?   It's just very hard for me to understand how it all could just Come to Be as it is over the course of 14 billion years..without some sort of REALIZATION of itself...somehow! ?

     That's it !  I've definitively decided that our core "consciousness" is just a glimmer of  ONE all encompassing    EXISTENCE.  Which IS  the source of all Being, and the material realm .     Your welcome.  No need to thank me. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by lightly

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Of course that is not even a serious question. I can give you a property of something that has no Explanation in Science. Any Redness area in the Visual Experience is purely a Conscious Experience. Electromagnetic waves do not have a property of Redness. Electromagnetic Waves have a property of Wavelength. No Neural Activity can have a property of Redness. The Redness property exists only in a Conscious Mind. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Thing. Science has Zero Explanation for something so real and so familiar to us as Redness. Science should be ashamed of itself for trying to hide the reality of Conscious Experience as being an actual Phenomenon in the Manifest Universe.

Hi Steve

Both you and I would have to have a body for you to describe it and for me to read or hear it so no that doesn't work

[SHaYap]

6 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

When people resort to childish analogies it is clear that they have nothing more to say.

How childish of you... 

~

6 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

I have to assume you really don't get the eye rub thing. So you must also be one of those that don't Experience the Qualia.

You've been assuming more than rubbing redness and frankly, you don't even know what 'Qualia' means

~

6 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Since you are Qualia Blind there is no basis for discussion with you. 

You never did show you had any basis for thinking much less discussions... 

Have fun 

~

[lightly]

13 hours ago, third_eye said:

How childish of you... 

~

You've been assuming more than rubbing redness and frankly, you don't even know what 'Qualia' means

~

You never did show you had any basis for thinking much less discussions... 

Have fun 

~

    I'm not sure either , ,but I think qualia bears live in Australia. .and eat Eucalyptus leaves.     ?

i'm going to Google Qualia right now.   

     AWESOME !*!*!*    I now know and completely understand the philosophical , psychological , and scientific descriptions of the word qualia.  And I also finally learned what the word Ephemeral means.  (I always suspected it was something like that).  

Edited September 19, 2021 by lightly

[SteveKlinko]

19 hours ago, lightly said:

Thanks,  ya, I like this thread because ,for some reason or other, I ,too, really love thinking and wondering about the nature of consciousness.     I've become sort of torn between the idea that the tree can fall, and make noise, with no one Experiencing it/Being conscious of it......and the opposite idea..that nothing really HAPPENS unless it is somehow Experienced. (some hold that view).  

   The thing that blows my mind is to think of the possibility of the Universe  Existing ,as believed, for 14 billion years    ?    With absolutely no conscious experience of it..until ,vertualy, THIS MOMENT. !?!?   It's just very hard for me to understand how it all could just Come to Be as it is over the course of 14 billion years..without some sort of REALIZATION of itself...somehow! ?

     That's it !  I've definitively decided that our core "consciousness" is just a glimmer of  ONE all encompassing    EXISTENCE.  Which IS  the source of all Being, and the material realm .     Your welcome.  No need to thank me. 

Very good. Keep on thinking. Any speculation today could be the proven fact of tomorrow as far as Consciousness goes.

[SteveKlinko]

18 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

Both you and I would have to have a body for you to describe it and for me to read or hear it so no that doesn't work

Sorry but, the Redness Experience exists only in the Conscious Mind. The Redness Experience exists nowhere in the human body. If you really are going to stipulate that the Redness Experience is in the Body or Brain then you have give at least a Clue as to how this could be.

[SteveKlinko]

14 hours ago, third_eye said:

How childish of you... 

~

You've been assuming more than rubbing redness and frankly, you don't even know what 'Qualia' means

~

You never did show you had any basis for thinking much less discussions... 

Have fun 

~

I say you are childish and you reply that I am childish. So we are at a stalemate. Bye to you.

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Sorry but, the Redness Experience exists only in the Conscious Mind. The Redness Experience exists nowhere in the human body. If you really are going to stipulate that the Redness Experience is in the Body or Brain then you have give at least a Clue as to how this could be.

Without a body nothing exists to the individual because the individual does not exist so redness is pointless to the individual if it has no existence. Experience is dependent on having a body

[SteveKlinko]

20 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Without a body nothing exists to the individual because the individual does not exist so redness is pointless to the individual if it has no existence. Experience is dependent on having a body

Ok, I will break the circle now. We are at a Stalemate. Bye to you.

[SHaYap]

38 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

I say you are childish and you reply that I am childish. So we are at a stalemate. Bye to you.

Where are you going? 

Hey, wanna know why Earth has a mysterious red glow too? 

Quote

 

[00.04:21]

~

 

[jmccr8]

41 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Ok, I will break the circle now. We are at a Stalemate. Bye to you.

Hi Steve

If you are suggesting that there is another quality of man then you should clearly state that rather than fluff around encouraging pointless discussion. To Aristotle man is the unity of body and soul and did try to determine if there were any qualities of the soul that were unique to it and not dependent on the unity of body and soul.

[SteveKlinko]

22 hours ago, lightly said:

Thanks,  ya, I like this thread because ,for some reason or other, I ,too, really love thinking and wondering about the nature of consciousness.     I've become sort of torn between the idea that the tree can fall, and make noise, with no one Experiencing it/Being conscious of it......and the opposite idea..that nothing really HAPPENS unless it is somehow Experienced. (some hold that view).  

   

The whole question is "If a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?". This classic Philosophical question was not directly asked but was first formulated by George Berkeley in his "A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Knowledge", and in 1883 the actual question appeared in the magazine "The Chautauquan".

From the point of view of the Inter Mind Model (IMM) the answer is clear and obvious. When the tree falls it makes pressure wave disturbances in the air and so there is Physical Sound. But if there is no one (not even an animal) there to hear the Physical Sound then there will be no Neural Sound or Conscious Sound. It is the Conscious Sound that is the only Sound we know. So the answer to the question is that there is no Sound.

[lightly]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

If you are suggesting that there is another quality of man then you should clearly state that rather than fluff around encouraging pointless discussion. To Aristotle man is the unity of body and soul and did try to determine if there were any qualities of the soul that were unique to it and not dependent on the unity of body and soul.

Good old Aristotle.     Interesting, and very logical ,I guess,  to ask if the soul can exist without dependence on a body...while not asking if the body can exist without dependence on 'a soul'.    ..because we can see our body.   I'll have to read some of his stuff.    I've been reading a little about the ideas of some predecessors of Socrates, Plato,and Aristotle .    One guy, Thales of Miletus , figured out how to measure the height of the great Pyramid by measuring it at the time a man's height equaled the length of his shadow !     Awesome huh? 

[lightly]

34 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

The whole question is "If a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?". This classic Philosophical question was not directly asked but was first formulated by George Berkeley in his "A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Knowledge", and in 1883 the actual question appeared in the magazine "The Chautauquan".

From the point of view of the Inter Mind Model (IMM) the answer is clear and obvious. When the tree falls it makes pressure wave disturbances in the air and so there is Physical Sound. But if there is no one (not even an animal) there to hear the Physical Sound then there will be no Neural Sound or Conscious Sound. It is the Conscious Sound that is the only Sound we know. So the answer to the question is that there is no Sound.

Ya, I know, I've heard that unsound premise many many times before ..     How about a little tape recorder ,recording the sound of that giant old tree CRASHING down!?   What's that do to the ridiculous notion that there was no SOUND.   ?

It isn't a philosophical mystery.   Hearing is not Sound.   Consciousness is not Sound.  

Edited September 19, 2021 by lightly

[SteveKlinko]

10 minutes ago, lightly said:

Ya, I know, I've heard that unsound premise many many times before ..     How about a little tape recorder ,recording the sound of that giant old tree CRASHING down!?   What's that do to the ridiculous notion that there was no SOUND.   ?

It isn't a philosophical mystery.   Hearing is not Sound.   Consciousness is not Sound.  

If you are unable to distinguish the Physical Sound (Pressure Waves)  from the Conscious Sound (the Experience in your Mind) then you would have trouble understanding this.

The Tape recorder is translating Pressure Waves into Magnetic Changes on the Tape.  When you play it back the recorder will produce Pressure Waves that your Ear/Brain/Mind will translate into Conscious Sound in your Mind. If there is nobody there to hear the Playback there will be no translation of Pressure Waves by the Ear/Brain/Mind into a Conscious Sound in any Mind.

[lightly]

31 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

If you are unable to distinguish the Physical Sound (Pressure Waves)  from the Conscious Sound (the Experience in your Mind) then you would have trouble understanding this.

The Tape recorder is translating Pressure Waves into Magnetic Changes on the Tape.  When you play it back the recorder will produce Pressure Waves that your Ear/Brain/Mind will translate into Conscious Sound in your Mind. If there is nobody there to hear the Playback there will be no translation of Pressure Waves by the Ear/Brain/Mind into a Conscious Sound in any Mind.

The underlined is Sound.   The bolded is Hearing.     Ear/Brain/Mind  translate  Sound into Hearing.

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by lightly

[lightly]

What if the question was...if sunlight shines through the trees ,but, no one is there to see it..  Is it light?   Yes, because light is not sight.   Exactly as, sound is not hearing.

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Steve

If you are suggesting that there is another quality of man then you should clearly state that rather than fluff around encouraging pointless discussion. To Aristotle man is the unity of body and soul and did try to determine if there were any qualities of the soul that were unique to it and not dependent on the unity of body and soul.

I think he's wanting an argument for the soul. That we are not our bodies. This has become a more metaphysical argument than a science (reality) based one. 

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I think he's wanting an argument for the soul. That we are not our bodies. This has become a more metaphysical argument than a science (reality) based one. 

Hi Xeno

Yes that is what I think as well to bad he just doesn't say so.

[The_Phantom_Stranger]

Maybe because you're in the Metaphysical and Psychic Phenemenon board. Duh!

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Xeno

Yes that is what I think as well to bad he just doesn't say so.

Always helps when people just get straight to the point.