Biden announces new vaccine mandates that could cover 100 million Americans

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Doug1066 said:

Will Due

Doug

Oh, LOL.  Don't take it personal.  I have him on ignore along with 25 others.    

[Doug1066]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Oh, LOL.  Don't take it personal.  I have him on ignore along with 25 others.    

Holy Smoke!  You don't like anybody.

Doug

[+Desertrat56]

12 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Holy Smoke!  You don't like anybody.

Doug

There are still more people I like than the ones I have put on ignore.   It is for my sanity that they are on ignore.  I am a cranky old woman and don't suffer fools politely.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Desertrat56

[+Hammerclaw]

It's a fact that holier-than-thou people absolutely can not stand other holier-than-thou people.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Doug1066]

10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's a fact that holier-than-thou people absolutely can not stand other holier-than-thou people.

Trying to reform me?

Doug

[Doug1066]

50 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are still more people I like than the ones I have put on ignore.   It is for my sanity that they are on ignore.  I am a cranky old woman and don't suffer fools politely.

I guess we're both cranky, then.

Doug

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Doug1066 said:

Trying to reform me?

Doug

No, but my-my. I lay out a shoe of a particular size and you immediately put your foot in it.

[Doug1066]

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

There's no difference Doug. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

There were two tiers of Nazis in Germany. The upper tier didn't care about anything except deceiving the people so they would have power over them. The lower tier Nazis were those Germans who were gullible enough to do the dirty work of spreading the upper tier's lies about the Jews.

Today we have the exact same thing going on against the unvaccinated. And you Doug, are a modern day lower tier Nazi.

OK.  So what lies am I spreading?

Doug

[Doug1066]

7 hours ago, Hugh Mungus said:

Doug, you advocate for less rights for the unvaccinated. Less freedom of movement- more identifiers is the next step. Wearing  distinctive badge or similar to identify who is unvaccinated. What's the next step? Covid isolation camps? Happening already in parts of the world. The jews were removed from Germany for public safety. They were spreading disease (if you listened to the media) and endangered other Germans.

We have seen this in history. 

Tell me the difference between how you view the unvaccinated and how a typical citizen in 1938 Germany viewed a Jewish person. 

 

I am not advocating for the loss of any rights.  By ruling of the Supreme Court  (1905), the government can inject you against your will.  You don't have the right to refuse.

By ruling of the Supreme Court  (1922) you can be excluded from group activities for not being vaccinated.  You don't have that right, either.

During the flu epidemic of 1918 unmasked people in their own yards were arrested and jailed pending the end of the epidemic.  WE HAD FLU ISOLATION CAMPS.  We can have covid camps if we need them.  The govt already has that right.  There's no rights left for me to advocate abolishing.  And you aren't doing anything about it.  Find some local mask ordinance and challenge it to the Supreme Court.  You have an activist conservative court; maybe you'll get your way.  But until you do, you don't have that right because it was taken away a century ago - except complaining on message boards that don't amount to anything.  Check with the ACLU; if they think it's a civil liberties issue they may pay for the lawyers.

But don't worry:  once covid is defeated, the vaccine mandates and mask mandates will go away - simply because they won't be needed any more.  At worst, they're a temporary inconvenience.

 

In Nazi Germany, the Catholic and Lutheran churches collaborated with the Nazis because Hitler was paying the churches ten percent of the tax money collected from members.  The churches could have opposed and abolished the death camps, but they stood by and did nothing just to protect their revenue.  Look up the Rosenstrasse Incident.  6000 Germans protested the deportation of 2000 Jews to the death camps, facing down winter weather and Gestapo and SS with machine guns.  And they won.  The 2000 Jews were released, including about two dozen that had already been shipped to Auschwitz.

After the flu epidemic ended we released those we had incarcerated.  They sued, of course, but by then it was a moot issue and the suits were dismissed.  If we need it, that same process is still legal -unless you can challenge it in court or outlaw it in the legislature.  So get off your a**es and fight for these things - that is, if you really believe that stuff and are not afraid of needles.

Doug

Edited September 18, 2021 by Doug1066

[+DieChecker]

12 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

I am not advocating for the loss of any rights.  By ruling of the Supreme Court  (1905), the government can inject you against your will.  You don't have the right to refuse.

If you mean Jacobson V. Massachusetts, didnt that establish a State can force vaccination? Extending that to the FedGov is a bit if a stretch, IMHO. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Quote

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

Quote

Jacobson also has been a precedent case in justifying government face mask orders and stay-at-home orders throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.[10][11]

Which are STATE controlled topics. FedGov can only mandates Federal Employees.

Quote

By ruling of the Supreme Court  (1922) you can be excluded from group activities for not being vaccinated.  You don't have that right, either.

Again, not shown to apply at the FedGov level. At least not with Zucht v. King.

I think there will have to be another Supreme Court decision to enforce either if those. Already 26 states have joined a lawsuit that such a mandate from the President is unlawful. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by DieChecker

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

If you mean Jacobson V. Massachusetts, didnt that establish a State can force vaccination? Extending that to the FedGov is a bit if a stretch, IMHO. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Which are STATE controlled topics. FedGov can only mandates Federal Employees.

Again, not shown to apply at the FedGov level. At least not with Zucht v. King.

I think there will have to be another Supreme Court decision to enforce either if those. Already 26 states have joined a lawsuit that such a mandate from the President is unlawful. 

Ever hear of state government?

Yes.  Enforcement is up to the state, but the Federal govt can enforce its will against the states by withholding funds and by trading political favors.  It has been done lots of times.

AND:  the Feds can always try it and see what the courts have to say now.

Doug

Edited September 18, 2021 by Doug1066

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Ever hear of state government?

Yes.  Enforcement is up to the state, but the Federal govt can enforce its will against the states by withholding funds and by trading political favors.  It has been done lots of times.

AND:  the Feds can always try it and see what the courts have to say now.

Doug

Both true. I was thinking direct control.

Some states would likely refuse all aid, and suffer consequences rather then submit, so I don't consider threats to be real control in this situation. 

[Doug1066]

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Both true. I was thinking direct control.

Some states would likely refuse all aid, and suffer consequences rather then submit, so I don't consider threats to be real control in this situation. 

Then the Feds are going to have to survive without real control.  But I have noticed that in such disputes in the past, the issue is settled within a few weeks and money starts flowing again, sometimes without any effect on state projects.

Doug

[Will Due]

[Knob Oddy]

Doug you truly are an idiot if you think rights come from the government and can be "removed" by the government.

Rights are inalienable. You are born with the same rights as any creature on earth.

There is a recognized human right to refuse medical treatment. If there wasn't you'd have been labotomized forcibly by president Trump. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Hugh Mungus

[Doug1066]

12 minutes ago, Hugh Mungus said:

There is a recognized human right to refuse medical treatment.

Supreme Court says differently.

 

About those "rights."  In America we have the rights the big corporations say we have.  We are free to criticize our government, but our employer can fire us for what we said.  Is that REALLY freedom of speech?

We have freedom of religion, but if something breaks in our house, we have to skip church to fix it because our spouse is employed elsewhere and can't work on it during the week.  Inadequate income makes the practice of any religion difficult.  Thank you, Big Business.

The "right to bear arms," but if you do, any cop can gun you down almost at will.  Is THAT the freedom to bear arms?  They gun down people for carrying wallets and cell phones - it's easy to make an excuse for a gun.

Freedom from unreasonable seizure?  Your local city can use imminent domain to seize your house so a big development can go in.  Or your fishing supply shop so they can bring in a Bass Pro shop to compete with you in your new location (It happened in Oklahoma City.).

Freedom from slavery?  Slavery is legal in prisons.

Do you have the freedom to quit your current job?  Not if you want to keep your health insurance.  And your boss knows that and will use it against you.

 

It's time to restore the Bill of Rights.  If the right would join the left in its campaign to restore the Constitution, this could happen very quickly.  But as long as we sit here quibbling over the details, the Big Corporations smile.

Doug

[Doug1066]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident:  that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

So says the Declaration of Independence.  Right to life?  That didn't make it into the Constitution.  The government has the right to take your life.  That's why we still have capital punishment.  All it takes is some legal subterfuge and you're dead.  The right to life needs to be added to the Bill of Rights.  Without it, capital punishment is legal, but so is abortion.

Doug

 

[Nnicolette]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:40 AM, ExpandMyMind said:

How can people still not grasp the danger of this? Pointing to deaths being half of the previous peak isn't the whole story.

While the US is losing around 2,000 people per day - and somehow this isn't enough for some of you - according to the data, there are around 100,000 hospitalisations per day and 25,000 people admitted to intensive care. Every day.

The strain on the health care system is massive. Nurses and doctors both are quitting, suffering from serious depression from watching people die and being worked to death. People who, now, are almost all unvaccinated. 

Covid patients are taking up resources that are then forcing surgeries and treatments, often for people with life threatening illnesses, to be postponed. Doctors and surgeries are stretched so thin that people aren't able to get appointments in the first place. There is a serious knock-on effect that is resulting in people actually dying as a result of Covid.

Then you have the people who think it's not so bad. They don't wear masks because they don't care if they get Covid (until they get it and end up half drowning in their own phlegm), but the whole point of masks is to protect others, not primarily yourself.

They don't get the vaccine for similar reasons, which is far, far worse, because the virus then continues to spread as strongly amongst the unvaccinated. Then it mutates, possibly becoming more dangerous (like the Delta variant which has 300x the viral load of its previous iteration, making it worse in every way imaginable). This then makes the vaccinated vulnerable all over again, requiring them to get boosters shots to combat each new variant. And on it goes on and on.

So the unvaccinated essentially say, "**** you, everyone else. These tiny, inconsequential inconveniences that are needed to protect myself and those around me is too much because I just don't wanna!". They prologue a virus that we could have had wiped out by now. They put everyone else at risk, and not just from Covid, as we don't know when any of us might need resources that are being taken up by an umvaccinated Covid patient. 

Selfish *******s the lot of them.

Narrative might make sense if the vaccine actually stopped you from getting or spreading covid. Only pretty much all of the people i have heard of getting it lately are vaccinated except me. I took a sip of some childrens motrin to help. Sorry that put such a strain on your precious resources with my worthless life and fully functional immune system. I think you will pull through because of your marked unselfish perspective requiring others to put things that may or may not kill them in thier bodies.

[+DieChecker]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:29 PM, Doug1066 said:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident:  that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

So says the Declaration of Independence.  Right to life?  That didn't make it into the Constitution.  The government has the right to take your life.  That's why we still have capital punishment.  All it takes is some legal subterfuge and you're dead.  The right to life needs to be added to the Bill of Rights.  Without it, capital punishment is legal, but so is abortion.

Doug

 

You're walking into some CT territory here. It might technically be true, but like with the FEMA camps, and Trump Dictatorship, it just isn't going to happen.

I think you're leaving out the concept of Due Process.

If the President was as powerful as that, we'd have a Big Beautiful Wall along the SW US.

Edited September 21, 2021 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

On 9/18/2021 at 9:48 AM, Doug1066 said:

Then the Feds are going to have to survive without real control.  But I have noticed that in such disputes in the past, the issue is settled within a few weeks and money starts flowing again, sometimes without any effect on state projects.

Doug

True, because often the FedGov realizes its going to loose the court battle and backs off.

There are still states that rejected Federal stimulus money, simply on principle.

You just stop hearing about it, because how much can you make out of... "Do you still refuse aid?", "Yes.".

If the president was as powerful as that we'd have a Big Beautiful Wall along the Southwest Mexican border. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by DieChecker

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Due Process

= legal subterfuge.

If legal proceedings were really fair, then it wouldn't make any difference which lawyer you had.

Doug

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

If the president was as powerful as that we'd have a Big Beautiful Wall along the Southwest Mexican border. 

Seems that Abbott is determined to build one.  Takes 3.6 million board feet of lumber (enough to build 180 houses) to build 60,000 coffins for Texas' covid victims.  That's enough to reach 85 miles.  If Abbott remains Governor, they may get that wall.  Thank god Trump's out.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

5 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

= legal subterfuge.

If legal proceedings were really fair, then it wouldn't make any difference which lawyer you had.

Doug

If they weren't mostly fair, the government, and big corporations would ALWAYS win.

[Doug1066]

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

If they weren't mostly fair, the government, and big corporations would ALWAYS win.

The thing that really makes the difference is who has the most money.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

3 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Seems that Abbott is determined to build one.  Takes 3.6 million board feet of lumber (enough to build 180 houses) to build 60,000 coffins for Texas' covid victims.  That's enough to reach 85 miles.  If Abbott remains Governor, they may get that wall.  Thank god Trump's out.

Doug

You might have something there. A border lined with coffins would be one heck of a deterrent. Possibly better then a Wall. Kind of a Vlad Tepes kind of thing.