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Biden announces new vaccine mandates that could cover 100 million Americans


OverSword
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Look at all the vaccines we get from birth to adulthood to protect us from being from varying ailments that could cripple us or even kill. Vaccines for Your Children | CDC

If we didn't require these shots many of us might be dead, blind, crippled etc..

My mother's Church has 13 members come down with Covid, and a few are in serious condition including her friend's whose husband who had difficulty breathing, and her daughter, who didn't go to that Church, just died from it.

You can be anti vaccine and take a risk of not dying for freedom, but so far the ration of vaccinated to non vaccinated deaths are 15 to 1.

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15 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Good question.  So far, it is not a law.  You cannot be arrested and put into prison.  But, the social and work pressure is mounting.   Most of the requirements give 3 choices:  take the vaccine, get tested every week, or if it is a private business they can pay the employee to stay home.  Businesses with less than  100 employees are not required to follow these procedures. So individuals still have multiple choices.  For those with medical conditions prohibiting vaccination, other avenues may be open.

Already the medical emergency pressure is exceeding system limits.  At least two states have had to ration critical care.  That means triage, just like on a battlefield.  The people who get the ICU beds are not the sickest, but the ones most likely to survive. They may have covid or they may have cancer, wouldn't matter, That is likely to spread to other states especially in the South.

So of those 80 million left, I reckon quite a number will get the jab.  If that gets us up to the numbers we need, 80%-90% to stop the spread, it has achieved its purpose.  There will be some who definitely refuse to the very end.   Most likely they will get to walk away without consequence. It makes a lot of people mad but there is no absolute justice in this world, and karma seem to work on delayed schedule sometimes. 

You assume this possibly ends. I mean, one day it'll have to but not any time soon. Some will certainly comply if their company demands it once and for all but what if a large number don't? What if the number is large enough to force the employer into submission. Losing half a workforce isn't going to bode well and if that happens on a wide scale it'll affect the country in many ways. So then what? The Bidens, the hard-core pushers and vaccine peddlers are going to be beside themselves with anger and that's when bluffs get called one way or another. 

I really wish Biden would take questions. I want to know what happens when his patience runs out.

 

2 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Look at all the vaccines we get from birth to adulthood to protect us from being from varying ailments that could cripple us or even kill. Vaccines for Your Children | CDC

If we didn't require these shots many of us might be dead, blind, crippled etc..

My mother's Church has 13 members come down with Covid, and a few are in serious condition including her friend's whose husband who had difficulty breathing, and her daughter, who didn't go to that Church, just died from it.

You can be anti vaccine and take a risk of not dying for freedom, but so far the ration of vaccinated to non vaccinated deaths are 15 to 1.

This vaccines marketing campaign was atrocious. The shaming, the grandstanding and the vitriol was bound to create rebellion. The coercion tactics are sickening. It was never about politics for me. I gave Trump credit for it but from the onset I chose to sit back and watch. I do not want to take part in a massive medical experiment. Odds are it'll be fine but what if it isn't. What if there are effects that take a long time to emerge. There's no backing out once you take that shot. It's in your body forever and what if it doesn't last forever. They seem to imply it likely won't. Boosters forever? Will there be booster shaming for those whove decided they took enough shots already? Idk, it just comes back to my earlier point, when does it ever end?

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1 hour ago, F3SS said:

You assume this possibly ends. I mean, one day it'll have to but not any time soon. Some will certainly comply if their company demands it once and for all but what if a large number don't? What if the number is large enough to force the employer into submission. Losing half a workforce isn't going to bode well and if that happens on a wide scale it'll affect the country in many ways. So then what? The Bidens, the hard-core pushers and vaccine peddlers are going to be beside themselves with anger and that's when bluffs get called one way or another. 

Yes, I assume it will end. I also believe it won't be much longer.  The way the Delta variant is spreading, in the next couple of years people will be vaccinated against it, or will have caught it and survived.    It seems to be moving fairly quickly.  By then we will have that herd immunity that we liked to talk about. Then maybe it becomes like a flu shot.  Some people get the flu shot some don't, every year some die. Could be either way, so you weigh the odds.  How many die after taking the flu shot and how many who didn't.. Then you make your bet.  Flu doesn't shut down our economy.  We deal with it.  

But what if a large enough number of employees don't comply and try to force the employer into submission?   We call that a strike don't we?  It's a  practice employed by labor unions at bargaining impasse.  It is not always successful.   In fact, this seems more like a strike in a right-to-work state.  Not every worker will walk out with those who choose not to comply.  There may even be other enticements to stay on the job. So probably the company won't do a lockout.  I would guess they will begin hiring. They might even view it as an opportunity to  increase profits by reducing the size of the workforce and subtly move more work onto those that stayed.  They may look into their HR records and statistics and decide that they don't want employees that try to force them into anything.  Whatever skills they have, they are replaceable.  People that are irreplaceable are rare enough that they usually make it under the radar with some sort of accommodation.

People that work in small companies or for themselves may be able to avoid all of that, but there will be some financial bumps and job changes.

There may be some people that fall into poverty because the skills they have to exchange are not worth the risk to the employer so they take menial survival jobs.  That is kind of how capitalism works.

What if all those non-compliers turn violent?  Interesting plan in a way.  the non-compliance is against a private corporation that owes the employee nothing after payday. They have a lot more latitude for action than does the government.  A corporation can watch that non-complier and his family starve without any responsibility.  That is why the Pinkerton Agency was started, to take care of troublesome agitators. and protect company property. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, acute said:

It's time to stop pússy-footing around the unvaccinated. They are either selfish, stupid, or both.

Let's make their lives HELL!  :devil:

 

[dramatic Hammer-Horror-style music]

 

Let's round them up into Ghettos and take away their weapons and cars. Or maybe FEMA camps? Yeah! Let's go full NAZI on these guys.

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48 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, I assume it will end. I also believe it won't be much longer.  The way the Delta variant is spreading, in the next couple of years people will be vaccinated against it, or will have caught it and survived.    It seems to be moving fairly quickly.  By then we will have that herd immunity that we liked to talk about.

But its not about herd immunity. I've tested at around 1000 on antibodies due to having had covid. But for lack of a slip of paper, I could lose my job?

That's a lot of power for the Executive, IMHO. Imagine if Trump, or DeSantis, wins in 2024 and demands people take hydroxychloroquine, or get fired. Its a lot of power and control.

Quote

There may be some people that fall into poverty because the skills they have to exchange are not worth the risk to the employer so they take menial survival jobs.  That is kind of how capitalism works.

For a disease that in working age people causes serious illness in like 0.1% of the people.

Given, its bad, but come on, just order people to wear masks and send obviously sick people home.

Edited by DieChecker
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New York Post : Joe Biden's incoherent, fear-mongering COVID vaccine speech.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/joe-bidens-incoherent-fear-mongering-covid-vaccine-speech/

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He told the American people without qualification that fully vaccinated people are at incredibly low risk: “Only 1 out of every 160,000 fully vaccinated Americans was hospitalized for COVID per day.”

Then he promised to shield them against the evil people who are threatening their very lives: “We’re going to protect the vaccinated from unvaccinated coworkers.”

But Joe, you just said the vaccinated were already protected!

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Biden was saying that they shouldn’t worry . . . but if they’re worried, their worries are justified.

Oh, and don’t worry, worriers, he was also announcing he’s going to take actions that are likely unconstitutional — using powers the courts have repeatedly said were beyond the scope of presidential authority to compel private businesses to act as he wishes them to act.

And why? Well, to ease the very worries he had just tried to convince all of us are actually unnecessary.

 

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10 hours ago, F3SS said:

You assume this possibly ends. I mean, one day it'll have to but not any time soon. Some will certainly comply if their company demands it once and for all but what if a large number don't? What if the number is large enough to force the employer into submission. Losing half a workforce isn't going to bode well and if that happens on a wide scale it'll affect the country in many ways. So then what? The Bidens, the hard-core pushers and vaccine peddlers are going to be beside themselves with anger and that's when bluffs get called one way or another. 

First, there are only 80 million Americans who haven't received at least one shot.  We don't have such a long way to go.

Second, as soon as the research is finished and the vaccines approved for kids (assuming it is), we'll cover a lot of that ground very quickly.

And there are other coercive measures that can still to be applied;  termination of Federal aid for those who get sick with covid, for example.  Allowing insurance companies to exclude covid payments from coverage, etc.  That will force the procrastinators to pay for their own foolishness.  Covid passports are still floating around in the background.  We can also end most govt services for those who don't have a passport.  Perhaps require a shot to collect your monthly Social Security check, for example.

Are Biden's actions unconstitutional?  Most would have passed muster before the Trump Court.  Now, we'll have to see if the Court changes its mind.  That issue is still unsettled, but I'll bet somebody drags it before the Supreme Court.

Doug

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7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But its not about herd immunity. I've tested at around 1000 on antibodies due to having had covid. But for lack of a slip of paper, I could lose my job?

 

But you could find another job that doesn't have vaccine requirments. So there is that option. Another option is to get the vector covid vaccine where there is little difference from the vector seasonal flu vaccines, if you are afraid of the messenger vaccines. We had four nurses quit at the hospital where I work over their politics about this pandemic. But before it started, every year they would get the required seasonal flu vaccine and they knew the J&J vaccine wasn't that much different and they could have gotten that shot and moved on. It wasn't going to kill them or caused their deaths five years down the road. They were being stubborn because of their politics.

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13 hours ago, Trelane said:

Are there exceptions for those who refuse based on religious beliefs?

I would guess they still have to get the bi-weekly test which is the alternative for all who don't want to vaccinate.

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32 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I would guess they still have to get the bi-weekly test which is the alternative for all who don't want to vaccinate.

The order was given to all military service members to take the shot after it was FDA approved but still allowed for religious accommodations.

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3 minutes ago, Trelane said:

The order was given to all military service members to take the shot after it was FDA approved but still allowed for religious accommodations.

You sacrifice a measure of your rights when you join the military.  They can tell you where go, what to do, and what vaccines are mandatory.

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2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You sacrifice a measure of your rights when you join the military.  They can tell you where go, what to do, and what vaccines are mandatory.

Oh absolutely. Recruits are briefed on that during their initial reception/integration phase. I was just wondering if the religious accommodations language had been included in the recent "mandate"?

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17 hours ago, OverSword said:

I'm guessing that this hasn't happened earlier because they were waiting on FDA approval and so any mandate will probably be whichever vaccines have been approved for more than just emergency use.  As far as I know that is only Pfizer so far (?)  

I just looked it up.  For some reason the Jannesen (J&J) is still only emergency approval. This is wrong and makes me think money is being exchanged.  

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18 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Or they are cancer patients already taking immunotherapy drugs and can't take those vaccines and for some reason have no access to the J&J or Astra Zeneca.

That's half the reason getting the vaccine is so important, to limit cancer patients who CANNOT take it getting ill.

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15 hours ago, Trelane said:

Are there exceptions for those who refuse based on religious beliefs?

No because that's hogshit, no book of faith says "Thou shalt not get vaccinated". You can't just use Jesus as a get out of jail free card for anything you don't like. 

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14 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

And some like Doug still wonder how the Nazis got the German people behind arresting Jews just for the sake of being Jewish.

 

 

A thousand some years of antisemitism whenever the local monarch needed a quick scapegoat, quit using my people to justify not wanting to get a vaccine, it's inaccurate and only slightly less offensive then the space laser thing. 

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18 hours ago, zep73 said:

@Desertrat56 may I ask why you favor J&J/AZ instead of Pfizer/Moderna ? It is proven that the latter are 50% more effective (making 50% more people immune).

I don't think they make many people "immune" to getting it, it just lessens the symptoms a lot.   

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9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But its not about herd immunity. I've tested at around 1000 on antibodies due to having had covid. But for lack of a slip of paper, I could lose my job?

That's a lot of power for the Executive, IMHO. Imagine if Trump, or DeSantis, wins in 2024 and demands people take hydroxychloroquine, or get fired. Its a lot of power and control.

JMO or my prediction, but yes I think it is about herd immunity because like everything else, it will fall out of the news when it loses its power to frighten..  When it is not in the news any more often than the flu, then vaccines will be like flu shots  Except for your doctor, people won't bother to care whether you got one or not

For lack of a slip of paper, your proof of citizenship you could have always lost your job .  Now you need proof of vaccination or a test or the ability to work from home.  Or if you are irreplaceable, your company will find some way to accommodate you.  School age children have needed immunization cards  to attend public schools since I was a kid. 

Businesses want the economy rolling and people spending.   They don't want employees fearing to come to work because of covid, or customers avoiding their business because of other customers. Now the government can be the bad guy and they can just follow the rules and it benefits their bottom line.. I was in one corporate meeting in which the region VP wanted to require flu shots for all hourly employees because of the impact to production and profits flu had.  They will like this.

Too much power for the executive?  It is a matter for the Supremes I guess.  Don't like those proof of citizenship requirements either, maybe they could take up both in the same case.

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Given, its bad, but come on, just order people to wear masks and send obviously sick people home.

Now I know you are spoofing me.  Order people to wear masks?  How is that working out?

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28 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

No because that's hogshit, no book of faith says "Thou shalt not get vaccinated". You can't just use Jesus as a get out of jail free card for anything you don't like. 

People do it all the time.  In New Mexico certain vaccinations are required for children to be allowed to go to public school.  But there is a religious exemption.  You have to fill out the paperwork at the beginning of every school year for you child to be allowed to go to school.  I don't know if this will be the same for the Covid19 vaccine.   I am hoping not.

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19 hours ago, zep73 said:

@Desertrat56 may I ask why you favor J&J/AZ instead of Pfizer/Moderna ? It is proven that the latter are 50% more effective (making 50% more people immune).

I think Israel is proof that that is a lie.  A big lie.

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9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

People do it all the time.  In New Mexico certain vaccinations are required for children to be allowed to go to public school.  But there is a religious exemption.  You have to fill out the paperwork at the beginning of every school year for you child to be allowed to go to school.  I don't know if this will be the same for the Covid19 vaccine.   I am hoping not.

Show me where, in the bible, it says anything about not getting your vaccines. Same with any other faith in New Mexico. 

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48 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

No because that's hogshit, no book of faith says "Thou shalt not get vaccinated". You can't just use Jesus as a get out of jail free card for anything you don't like. 

Those that I know who are refusing aren't Christians.

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4 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

First, there are only 80 million Americans who haven't received at least one shot.  We don't have such a long way to go.

Second, as soon as the research is finished and the vaccines approved for kids (assuming it is), we'll cover a lot of that ground very quickly.

And there are other coercive measures that can still to be applied;  termination of Federal aid for those who get sick with covid, for example.  Allowing insurance companies to exclude covid payments from coverage, etc.  That will force the procrastinators to pay for their own foolishness.  Covid passports are still floating around in the background.  We can also end most govt services for those who don't have a passport.  Perhaps require a shot to collect your monthly Social Security check, for example.

Are Biden's actions unconstitutional?  Most would have passed muster before the Trump Court.  Now, we'll have to see if the Court changes its mind.  That issue is still unsettled, but I'll bet somebody drags it before the Supreme Court.

Doug

Man you love this stuff don't you. Your bumper sticker says govern me harder daddy doesn't it?

I keep hearing about the Nuremberg Code and your use of the word coerce got me to finally look it up. Seems to me that guys like you also would disregard this "old piece of paper".

 

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Nuremberg Code

The Nuremberg Military Tribunal’s decision in the case of the United States v Karl Brandt et al. includes what is now called the Nuremberg Code, a ten point statement delimiting permissible medical experimentation on human subjects. According to this statement, humane experimentation is justified only if its results benefit society and it is carried out in accord with basic principles that “satisfy moral, ethical, and legal concepts.”

–“Permissible Medical Experiments.” Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals under Control Council Law No. 10. Nuremberg October 1946 – April 1949, Washington. U.S. Government Printing Office (n.d.), vol. 2., pp. 181-182.

   1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion, and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.

The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.

 

Emphasis by me ^^^

I didn't hear Joe talk about possible negative outcomes, the duration of this experiment. All employees should have a legal document signed by their coercive employers to accept legal and financial responsibility for all negative outcomes that may arise from the vaccine from now until the end of time. 

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57 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Show me where, in the bible, it says anything about not getting your vaccines. Same with any other faith in New Mexico. 

What does the bible have to do with religion?   People make stuff up all the time for their religion and the bible is just used to hit people over the head.

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

People do it all the time.  In New Mexico certain vaccinations are required for children to be allowed to go to public school.  But there is a religious exemption.  You have to fill out the paperwork at the beginning of every school year for you child to be allowed to go to school.  I don't know if this will be the same for the Covid19 vaccine.   I am hoping not.

I wonder if the amish will have to get it.   They get exempt from all kinds of laws.  They are mostly a special kind of stupid who choose to live in their "loophole" lifestyle.

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