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The Surprisingly Strong Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates


OverSword
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5 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

What about smokers? If they get lung cancer should they be denied hospital treatment? What if someone chooses not to wear a seat belt and is admitted to hospital in serious condition because of a car accident? 

And let's not forget that statistically speaking, BIPOC individuals are less likely to be vaccinated than white people, so depending on who you talk to you could argue that denial of medical care on this basis is a racist belief. 

Just a thought to consider :) 

I totally agree with you. What about all the drunk drivers who injure themselves(never mind their unwitting passengers, nearby pedestrians, other drivers and their passengers); anyone who causes injury/disease to themselves with alcohol consumption; those who are obese through poor/excessive diet choices; those who end up in hospital with illegal drug-induced problems . . . . . the list goes on. Many, many people are in hospital because of their own poor choices, often maintained over many years. You could include those who play dangerous sports. Where do you draw the line? Once you start excluding one group the floodgates would open.

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11 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

You could include those who play dangerous sports.

That's part of my very expensive health coverage and most competitions demand your covered. 

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11 hours ago, joc said:

Most people infected with Covid do not die. 

>650k Americans did already. Acceptable yes/no?

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Whereas most people infected with small pox did indeed die.  True or False?

Small pox mortality rate was at about 30% but do you think that this number make C19 harmless?

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The idea of a vaccine mandate is understandably frightening to some people. I have no issue with people not getting vaccinated for whatever reason they decide it's not for them. 

I DO think unvaccinated people should continue to follow the lockdown guidelines however.

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1 hour ago, toast said:

>650k Americans did already. Acceptable yes/no?

Small pox mortality rate was at about 30% but do you think that this number make C19 harmless?

The thing about small pox was...the pox...you could see them...

Quite frankly Toast...I am not buying the number of 650,000 dead Americans from Covid.   If you died, regardless of your age, if you tested positive your death went down as Covid.   While that could be true...you are 88 or in your 90s...the flu could easily kill you.  The elderly are extremely susceptible to pneumonia.  Millions of people die every year in the US from all kinds of things.  There has been way to much politicizing of the pandemic for it to be 'scary' to me.  

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24 minutes ago, joc said:

Millions of people die every year in the US from all kinds of things. 

When was the last time that hospitals and ICUs ran out of beds from any/all of these 'all kinds of things'.

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It certainly doesn't help the media narrative

Which media narrative?

And let's finish the story concerning smallpox:  what was one of the important factors in eradicating smallpox?  Starts with a 'V'.

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7 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

What about smokers? If they get lung cancer should they be denied hospital treatment? What if someone chooses not to wear a seat belt and is admitted to hospital in serious condition because of a car accident? 

Neither of these directly endanger other people, and I'm not aware of hospital resources being extensively depleted to the point where there's a danger of not being able to treat other patients because of smokers and people not wearing seat belts.

7 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

And let's not forget that statistically speaking, BIPOC individuals are less likely to be vaccinated than white people, so depending on who you talk to you could argue that denial of medical care on this basis is a racist belief. 

Unfortunately in our country, black people at least have cause to be wary of the medical community:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

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52 minutes ago, joc said:

Quite frankly Toast...I am not buying the number of 650,000 dead Americans from Covid. 

Your problem is that you dont and never buy anything thats real.

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11 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I agree, it may not be as serious. .  If I don't put you at risk of dying, do I have the right to make you sick and miss a couple of paychecks?  

Have you ever gone to work with a cold?

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2 hours ago, OverSword said:

Have you ever gone to work with a cold?

It is a question about basic rights isn't it?  How much can your rights infringe on another person before it becomes an issue?   Back to  economics with that one?

Yes, and likely my boss and my team hated me for it infecting several other people and not only reducing my productivity but theirs.  Most bosses tell you to stay home, but sometimes even if you have sick leave,  you think the project is too important. .Dosing up on Nyquil or cold meds to hide the symptoms does not contribute to the best engineering decisions. 

I have only known half a dozen people that have contracted covid, including my postman.  Only one would up in the hospital.   Three others said it kicked their ass.  They were out of work for a couple of weeks.

You can dismiss the seriousness based on the fatality rate,  but that is not the total loss picture.  At my company hourly employees did not have the same benefits salaried employees did.  If I made hourly employees sick, I cost them real money.

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10 hours ago, toast said:

Your problem is that you dont and never buy anything thats real.

First of all toasty...I don't have any problems.  All I have are solutions.  Secondly, I am one of the few people I actually know that live in the 'real' world.  Group Think isn't the real world.  I don't buy Group Think.  None of the great inventions came from Group Think.  None of the great discoveries came from Group Think.  There wasn't a group of people of which  Albert Einstein was one.  There wasn't a group gathered around the apple tree when Newton had his epiphany.  Group Think is actually group stink.  The individual thought process from great minds is where innovation and most things marvelous occur. 

So if you want to poo poo my thought process go ahead.  I don't care.  But your silliness is just that.

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18 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

What about smokers? If they get lung cancer should they be denied hospital treatment? What if someone chooses not to wear a seat belt and is admitted to hospital in serious condition because of a car accident? 

And let's not forget that statistically speaking, BIPOC individuals are less likely to be vaccinated than white people, so depending on who you talk to you could argue that denial of medical care on this basis is a racist belief. 

Just a thought to consider :) 

And what about a woman's right to choose?  Should women be exempt from any vaccine mandate?  Of course they should.  The Supreme Court has already ruled that a woman has the right to choose what happens with her own body.  

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10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

And let's finish the story concerning smallpox:  what was one of the important factors in eradicating smallpox?  Starts with a 'V'.

Oh, I know, I know...:st...pick me, pick me, I know the answer to that one!!

Vaccine!   :sk

On May 14, 1796, Jenner took fluid from a cowpox blister and scratched it into the skin of James Phipps, an eight-year-old boy. A single blister rose up on the spot, but James soon recovered. On July 1, Jenner inoculated the boy again, this time with smallpox matter, and no disease developed. The vaccine was a success. Doctors all over Europe soon adopted Jenner’s innovative technique, leading to a drastic decline in new sufferers of the devastating disease.

It worked! Right out of the box.   Yay!  Okay, my turn...what are two of the most unimportant factors in eradicating Covid 10?  One starts with m and one starts with v.

Oh man, I'm sorry...I shouldn't hit you with a trick question right at the start...

Covid 19 has NOT been eradicated.  

Okay, still my turn...who discovered the vaccine for small pox?  Starts with a j

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14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Neither of these directly endanger other people, and I'm not aware of hospital resources being extensively depleted to the point where there's a danger of not being able to treat other patients because of smokers and people not wearing seat belts.

What about second hand smoke?

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2 minutes ago, joc said:

What about second hand smoke?

Or second hand smoke from second hand smokers? 

:D

Edited by acidhead
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8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 Back to  economics with that one?

You mean where the government shut the entire country down and millions of people became unemployed...and yeah...that helped alot didn't it.  (well joc, you have no idea how bad it could've been if they hadn't)

8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

At my company hourly employees did not have the same benefits salaried employees did.  If I made hourly employees sick, I cost them real money.

At most companies hourly employees don't have the same benefits aa salaried employees.  Back to Social Shaming.  

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1 hour ago, joc said:

You mean where the government shut the entire country down and millions of people became unemployed...and yeah...that helped alot didn't it.  (well joc, you have no idea how bad it could've been if they hadn't)

Nope in this case I mean individual rights and  responsibilities and the economics that go  with it. I am talking about rights being used carelessly and  causing harm to another citizen.  Since viking times not every dispute was resolved by combat. There were prices set out for infractions  So it is today.  If someone strikes me with their car because they are careless, I do not get to run over them in revenge, but  I get financial compensation.  Same with covid I think.  If someone's carelessness causes me to get infected despite my best precautions and I miss work or have long term reduction in ability, I am going to seek compensation. Then it winds up in court.

1 hour ago, joc said:

At most companies hourly employees don't have the same benefits aa salaried employees.  Back to Social Shaming.  

Only if you are an entitled a**hat that got their position through privilege or dishonesty or took unfair advantage of others might you feel social shaming.  Many of us got where we are by dent of luck and hard work.  We know our sh** stinks just like everyone else. I can  interact with people as friends and equals even if our pay rates are different.  I take care not to cause trouble for another that would cost them more dearly than myself because we are friends and I am aware of our relative economics.  That is all.

 

 

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7 hours ago, joc said:

 Secondly, I am one of the few people I actually know that live in the 'real' world. 

Some others believe to be Jesus.

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7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

If someone's carelessness causes me to get infected despite my best precautions

Look around you Tatetopa....do you see it?  The virus...  Do you see it wafting around the room you are in? 

You are working here from a false premise that it is another persons fault if you get sick.  It's utterly ridiculous.  It is not my damn fault if  you get sick.  

Please...show me anywhere the person...the very person that infected someone else.  You can't.  This is all social shaming crap perpetuated by others and glommed onto by Group Think.  My advice would be to stop glomming on and start thinking this stuff through.

Every lie has within it the element of truth...otherwise it wouldn't be believable.  There seems to be an awful lot of back-peddling, straight out lying and misinformation designed to have us all think the same way...  

I don't think the same way.  I'm not part of the Cabal of Thought expressed by the Media.  

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5 hours ago, toast said:

Some others believe to be Jesus.

I am good with leaving 'belief' to others.  If you don't 'know' ...then you believe.  

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9 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Nope in this case I mean individual rights and  responsibilities and the economics that go  with it. I am talking about rights being used carelessly and  causing harm to another citizen.  Since viking times not every dispute was resolved by combat. There were prices set out for infractions  So it is today.  If someone strikes me with their car because they are careless, I do not get to run over them in revenge, but  I get financial compensation.  Same with covid I think.  If someone's carelessness causes me to get infected despite my best precautions and I miss work or have long term reduction in ability, I am going to seek compensation. Then it winds up in court.

With Covid I think there is an argument to be made that the most careless spreaders of the virus are the vaccinated. The vaccinated are the ones who believe they are no longer at a high risk of serious infections, hospitalizations and death, Because of the reduced risk to themselves vaccinated people are most likely the ones who will abandon masks, social distancing and personal preventative measures. The vaccinated by-and-large seem to believe their social responsibility ends with vaccination therefore they are more likely to be comfortable blowing their Covid germs all over the place because it has little consequence to themselves. 
 

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The study details a COVID-19 outbreak that started July 3 in Provincetown, Mass., involving 469 cases. It found that three-quarters of cases occurred in fully vaccinated people. Massachusetts has a high rate of vaccination: about 69% among eligible adults in the state at the time of the study. 

It also found no significant difference in the viral load present in the breakthrough infections occurring in fully vaccinated people and the other cases, suggesting the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the coronavirus is similar.

The CDC said the finding that fully vaccinated people could spread the virus was behind its move to change its mask guidance.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance

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A preliminary study has shown that in the case of a breakthrough infection, the Delta variant is able to grow in the noses of vaccinated people to the same degree as if they were not vaccinated at all. The virus that grows is just as infectious as that in unvaccinated people, meaning vaccinated people can transmit the virus and infect others.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/evidence-mounts-that-people-with-breakthrough-infections-can-spread-delta-easily
 

 

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On 9/9/2021 at 5:46 PM, joc said:

Most people infected with Covid do not die.  Whereas most people infected with small pox did indeed die.  True or False?

He's just afraid of needles.

Doug

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1 hour ago, el midgetron said:

With Covid I think there is an argument to be made that the most careless spreaders of the virus are the vaccinated. The vaccinated are the ones who believe they are no longer at a high risk of serious infections, hospitalizations and death, Because of the reduced risk to themselves vaccinated people are most likely the ones who will abandon masks, social distancing and personal preventative measures. The vaccinated by-and-large seem to believe their social responsibility ends with vaccination therefore they are more likely to be comfortable blowing their Covid germs all over the place because it has little consequence to themselves. 

Good point.  I can see this where I work.  I am occasionally less than conscientious about masks, myself.  Whether or not procovids are being stupid, I am not yet justified in endangering them.  First, we must do everything possible to offer voluntary protection to everyone and we have not yet finished testing and distributing vaccines for kids.  Until that is done and a defense program of manufacturing and distributing vaccines to the rest of the world is well under way, I cannot justify endangering anybody because of my own carelessness.  Even then, I owe it to everybody else to carefully consider my actions first.

Doug

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4 hours ago, joc said:

Please...show me anywhere the person...the very person that infected someone else.  You can't. 

It is highly likely that my wife infected me.

Doug

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On 9/10/2021 at 7:03 AM, joc said:

If you died, regardless of your age, if you tested positive your death went down as Covid.   

People often die who had two serious conditions when neither would have killed them.  In such a case, the cause of death could justifiably be called covid because without covid, the person would not have died.

That's sort of like Chauvin's defense that Floyd died of suffocation, not because Chauvin's knee was on his throat.

Doug

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